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Dracomax
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Post by Dracomax »

ataraxia wrote:
rkolter wrote:It must take in energy in some manner. For anything quick minded and quick of limb, it will probably be eating. Unless you encounter it in a vey hot (VERY hot - not habitable for humans hot) type world and give it some means of converting heat into other energy (maybe a natural steam engine!)
This would go against the law of thermodynamics, wouldn't it? What you need to generate useful energy is a temperature differential, not simply a high ambient temperature.
rkolter wrote:It may or may not excrete. We humans do because we are wasteful and poorly designed.
I'd disagree with this as well. If an organism were to live without excretion, then the by-products of its every metabolic process would need to be useful compounds. These compounds would then be used in other metabolic processes, resulting in more useful compounds, unto infinity. Also, such an organism would be constantly taking in mass, but would never lose it (except perhaps through reproduction).

I don't see excretion as a wasteful system, myself. In a perfectly controlled world maybe it could be eliminated. In a world where different organisms are evolving in competition with one another I don't think an excretion-free organism would stand a chance.
Even without that, there is the fact that it is physically impossible to take in energy with no corresponding loss of energy.

At the very least, there has to be an excretion of waste heat.

Remember, thermodynamics say1. you can't win, 2. you can't break even, and 3. you can't get out of the game. Irregular webcomic taught me that.
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Post by RemusShepherd »

dracomax wrote:Even without that, there is the fact that it is physically impossible to take in energy with no corresponding loss of energy.

At the very least, there has to be an excretion of waste heat.

Remember, thermodynamics say1. you can't win, 2. you can't break even, and 3. you can't get out of the game. Irregular webcomic taught me that.
The laws of thermodynamics apply only to closed systems. Life, and the ecosystems they live in, are by definition not closed. Don't try to apply thermodynamics to everything.

It's unlikely that a creature could take in food and not excrete waste, but perhaps all its waste products are exhaled during respiration. This is even more likely if it lives at high temperatures, where most waste products might be gaseous.

Waste heat is only a problem for endotherms. This creature is likely to be exothermic -- the same temperature as its environment. If you're worried about reducing heat intake, that can be solved by changes in emissivity as easily as it can with radiators. That would look something like a silvery metallic skin, with portions of its body (sensory organs?) outside the skin and able to withdraw inside.

I'm seeing a cross between a fire-breathing turtle and a hubcap, here. ;)
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Post by Ataraxia »

RemusShepherd wrote:The laws of thermodynamics apply only to closed systems. Life, and the ecosystems they live in, are by definition not closed. Don't try to apply thermodynamics to everything.
That's what I was saying- you can only get usable energy from the temperature if you have a different area with a different temperature, i.e. it's not a closed system. The original suggestion by rkolter seemed to imply that an organism could generate useful energy just from being placed in an extremely hot environment. I don't see how that could work.
RemusShepherd wrote:It's unlikely that a creature could take in food and not excrete waste, but perhaps all its waste products are exhaled during respiration. This is even more likely if it lives at high temperatures, where most waste products might be gaseous.
That would still be excretion, though. Maybe I'm being too literal-minded, but I took rkolter's post to mean that a well-designed and non-wasteful organism would have no need of defecation, urination, elimination of gases through exhalation, sweating, or any other method used on Earth to remove unneeded or toxic compounds from the body.
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Post by Jim North »

Concerning manipulating appendages, one must remember that the technology used by another sentient species would be adapted to their manipulators, not the other way around. Most humans in general seem to think that sentients would not be able to get along without opposable digits of some kind . . . even the semi-popular tentacle has an opposability feature. However, even if they had only a single claw to work with, I don't doubt a reasonably intelligent sentient would be capable of working out how to build a spacecraft eventually.

They could, for instance, evolve a system of teamwork . . . several sentients grouped together on an almost constant basis, extending and using each of their claws in unison to operate in ways similar to a human hand. This unity of claw use could even be set as a basis for many of their cultural mores. For instance, their marriage analog would occur amongst groups of five who's simultaneous claw usage was particularly harmonious.
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Post by Dracomax »

I never said that intelligent species would definately have opposable appendages. Only that it was likely any we would meet would.

while there are other possibilities(telekinesis would work too!) the opposable limb is the easiest I can think of, and most likely to lead to intelligence, rather than to come to be used asa side effect therof. the opposable appendage allows one creature to use tools, without requiring much intelligence.

since evolution as we know it is based on individual survivability and the potential to pass on genes, it seems more likely to work than a system requiring 5 individuals to use a tool in self defense.(that being the likely use of some of the earliest tools).
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Post by Jim North »

The likelihood of meeting a sentient species with opposable thumbs (or any recognizable-by-us manipulative appendages) can't really be calculated, I would think, considering the only base we have to work from is ourselves.

In any case, I never said it would be easy for sentients without opposables. But then I've never met an opposable-digit-less sentient, so what do I know? It could be that five single claws are several times better than what we've got. Again, their technology would be specifically evolved to fit with their unique physiology, just like ours is for us. It's possible that even a single single claw could weild their version of a spear with an amazing amount of ease and skill. But then, using a tool for self-defense probably wouldn't make much sense for a creature that's already got a claw to work with, neh?

I don't see that the connection you're making between tool use and intelligence is apt. Intelligence isn't strictly limited to how to use tools, but has a wide range of applicability, all of which could be used to develop higher intelligence. And on the other end, as you yourself have just said, a creature doesn't have to have very much intelligence at all in order to use a tool.
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Post by RemusShepherd »

ataraxia wrote:That's what I was saying- you can only get usable energy from the temperature if you have a different area with a different temperature, i.e. it's not a closed system. The original suggestion by rkolter seemed to imply that an organism could generate useful energy just from being placed in an extremely hot environment. I don't see how that could work.
Those are both paths to a valid metabolism. An exothermic creature, for example, is the same temperature as its surroundings. It gets energy from ingestion of food.

Alternately, you can have...well --
Maybe I'm being too literal-minded, but I took rkolter's post to mean that a well-designed and non-wasteful organism would have no need of defecation, urination, elimination of gases through exhalation, sweating, or any other method used on Earth to remove unneeded or toxic compounds from the body.
Think of a robot. It runs on electrical energy (which can be easily recovered from a thermal differential). It does not ingest food, and does not excrete.

Organisms that grow need to ingest and excrete. But if you have an organism that doesn't grow -- it enters the world fully formed -- it could thrive on electrical or thermal potentials.
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Post by Jim North »

RemusShepherd wrote:Think of a robot. It runs on electrical energy (which can be easily recovered from a thermal differential). It does not ingest food, and does not excrete.
It injests electricity and excretes waste heat, dunnit? I mean, just because it's not food and excretion as we normally think of it, it's still pulling in an outside something in order to function and putting out a waste product as a result.

I'm not saying a robot is alive, I'm just saying . . . doesn't it still have those two qualities of life, then?
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Post by Rkolter »

ataraxia wrote:
RemusShepherd wrote:The laws of thermodynamics apply only to closed systems. Life, and the ecosystems they live in, are by definition not closed. Don't try to apply thermodynamics to everything.
That's what I was saying- you can only get usable energy from the temperature if you have a different area with a different temperature, i.e. it's not a closed system. The original suggestion by rkolter seemed to imply that an organism could generate useful energy just from being placed in an extremely hot environment. I don't see how that could work.
A BLOCK placed in a hot room couldn't generate energy just from being there. A creature, capable of regulating it's temperature in some way, may in fact be able to convert the heat of it's environment into energy it can use. Or perhaps the reverse - the temperature silicon needs to be chemically active might be cooler than it's internal body temperature.

A simple example - the creature could have bladders of water in it's temperature controlled body. Upon exposure to heat, those cavities could expand as the water inside boiled, and the expansion of those cavities could drive a muscle that lifts a leg. Or it wouldn't have to be water with it's phase conversion to steam - any liquid that expands suitably given heat would work. When the liquid cools, the bladder contracts, and the leg falls.

It's pretty easy to figure out a bunch of ways a creature that survives in hot temperatures could make use of those hot temperatures to produce other kinds of energy.
ataraxia wrote:
RemusShepherd wrote:It's unlikely that a creature could take in food and not excrete waste, but perhaps all its waste products are exhaled during respiration. This is even more likely if it lives at high temperatures, where most waste products might be gaseous.
That would still be excretion, though. Maybe I'm being too literal-minded, but I took rkolter's post to mean that a well-designed and non-wasteful organism would have no need of defecation, urination, elimination of gases through exhalation, sweating, or any other method used on Earth to remove unneeded or toxic compounds from the body.
I did not say that it would not excrete, only that it may not need to. I did not discount basic thermodynamics. If human bodies were incredibly resourceful and made use of whatever we put into them, we'd still generate a lot of heat. And a silicon based creature may need to generate a lot of heat. Maybe it has a version of 'sweat' it uses to cool it's outer casing (skin, whatever). Maybe it respires it's waste. My point was that such a creature would be alien in our eyes - it would eat, but never appear to need to excrete.

It's only one possibility.

Incidentally, you responded to me, and someone else responded to you - that's how the forums work. If you're specifically interested in having my response, you'd do better to private message me. Forums are a public place, and you ought not ignore someone else's response to you just because you are waiting for one from me.
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Post by YarpsDat »

rkolter wrote: A BLOCK placed in a hot room couldn't generate energy just from being there. A creature, capable of regulating it's temperature in some way, may in fact be able to convert the heat of it's environment into energy it can use.
"regulating its temperature in some way" indeed.
Take your creature, once the water boils/bladders expand, it can't make another step... unless it manages to lower its temperature somehow. And in the presented scenario, the only way for that is to evaporate something, like sweat.

In other words, your creature didn't actually convert the ambient heat into energy, instead it traded some of its sweat supply for energy.

It's like a reverse steam engine: it uses fuel to heat up the cylinder, and later uses cold enviroment to cool it.
Your creature uses hot enviroment to heat up the cylinder, then uses coolant to cool it.
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Post by Rkolter »

YarpsDat wrote:
rkolter wrote: A BLOCK placed in a hot room couldn't generate energy just from being there. A creature, capable of regulating it's temperature in some way, may in fact be able to convert the heat of it's environment into energy it can use.
"regulating its temperature in some way" indeed.
Take your creature, once the water boils/bladders expand, it can't make another step... unless it manages to lower its temperature somehow. And in the presented scenario, the only way for that is to evaporate something, like sweat.
... which in fact, I suggested. :D
Yarpsdat wrote:In other words, your creature didn't actually convert the ambient heat into energy, instead it traded some of its sweat supply for energy.
Sure it did. It converted the heat into something it could use. It then had to sweat to cool off. I never said it was a perfect scenario. I was quite clear on that YarpsDat. And at somepoint in it's biology, it'd have to have a way to generate that kind of sweat. I never claimed to be describing an entire biological system - I specifically stated that I was just offering some thoughts on parameters it might live within.
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Post by YarpsDat »

Oh, okay then.
I got confused by that part:
It must take in energy in some manner. [...] it will probably be eating. Unless you encounter it in a vey hot (VERY hot - not habitable for humans hot) type world and give it some means of converting heat into other energy
That seemes to imply it wouldn't need to eat, and could just convert heat into energy.
But it has to sweat or something to cool off, and for that it needs to eat to have something to sweat with.

(Alternatively, it could cool off by touching something cold, but we're talking about hot place with no colder spots, right?)
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Post by Rkolter »

YarpsDat wrote:Oh, okay then.
I got confused by that part:
It must take in energy in some manner. [...] it will probably be eating. Unless you encounter it in a vey hot (VERY hot - not habitable for humans hot) type world and give it some means of converting heat into other energy
That seemes to imply it wouldn't need to eat, and could just convert heat into energy.
But it has to sweat or something to cool off, and for that it needs to eat to have something to sweat with.

(Alternatively, it could cool off by touching something cold, but we're talking about hot place with no colder spots, right?)
"... and give it some means of converting heat into other energy." Could mean quite a bit - for example, a device which does so, making the species not natural at all, but instead artificial. Like a giant, supercold heart in the middle of a fungus mat, with all the fungi connected to the device. Or a machine capable of doing telekenesis at a distance. Or maybe they need to eat, but only if they don't have a RonCo(tm) personal cooler attached to their backs - an invention a thousand years old that lets them survive without eating.

Maybe they've discovered the next plateau at which heavy elements become stable, and one of those elements is superconductive at high temperatures, and they make use of that superconductivity in some way.

Or maybe they naturally produce Aerogel (it's a silicate) and that keeps their organs significantly cooler than their skin (hey, a couple mm of it can protect a crayon from melting in the heat of a 3000-degree torch).

Actually, I quite like the last one - such a tremendous temperature differential has to be useful for something. The bigger the differential, theoretically the more energy you can squeeze out of it. Bladders chilled to sub-zero via chemical reaction, surrounded by aerogel, which is pulled apart by muscles when they feel heat of a specific temperature or above, causing the bladder to heat, the contents to boil, the bladder to swell, closing the gap... neato. :D

Maybe it's means of eating is purely through breathing - the atmosphere it is in could contain spores. So.. it never looks like it is eating, but really it is.

Maybe it was designed, and so does not need to eat, but gets extra energy to offset the loss due to thermodynamics from another source.

Maybe it does need to excrete, but does so in a manner we do not suspect - such as purely through respiration. Or maybe it doesn't excrete save through waste heat.

I never really intended to get this involved in this question - as I mentioned, I was just offering a few, of the many possible, frameworks in which such a creature might live. I was not outlining it's complete digestive or waste removal system. :P
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Post by RemusShepherd »

YarpsDat wrote:(Alternatively, it could cool off by touching something cold, but we're talking about hot place with no colder spots, right?)
If its body temperature is warmer than its surroundings, all it needs are some kind of radiator fins to regular its temperature.
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Post by Rkolter »

A silicon based possibility:

Centipedelike, with a translucent caripice and many metal studded legs.

--> Common window glass is somewhat translucent to infrared light. Aerogel is a world record holding insulator against heat. Both are silica materials.

--> Some sea creatures have been shown to excrete metal in the formation of their caripices - others have been shown to excrete glass.

It maintains a tremendously high internal temperature, required to keep it's metabolism running. It's back has hundreds of thousands of articulated spikes, each made of dead cells. The creature can wave these spikes in defense, or in the air for cooling by moving blood through them, or into hot puddles of molten metals or other high temperature liquids that abound in it's world, to warm itself.

--> Fins have been used with great success on Earth for temperature control in animals and in machines, both for heating and for cooling.

Since much of it's internals are wrapped in natural aerogel-like material and it's hide is resistant to infrared radiation (which includes loss), loss of these spikes is a danger. Thus, much like a shark's teeth, new spikes are constantly in development and click into place over the muscle that controls their movement (and flow of fluid through them) as old ones break off and are discarded.

--> Sharks and shark teeth and the physiology of their gums and nerves.

The creature does eat, although a human wouldn't recognize it as such. The creature's digestive tract is little more than a long tube with millions of hairs adorning it. As it inhales, the organic debris that always falls upon it's world from his dense atmosphere above gets trapped. The creature then digests the material on these hairlike threads, before ejecting the waste in the next breath.

--> Venus is a case of runaway greenhouse that could cause temperatures like this (actually, much higher temperatures, but I digress). There are organics in it's atmosphere. They might rain out. We don't talk about the world much, so you could easily device an ecosystem where creatures live in the upper atmosphere, then eventually die and rain down.

--> Filtering for food is a common feature of animals on Earth.

--> Digestion of those materials on the threads is found in the Sundew plant and other flora and fauna.

--> At first sight a human would not see this creature "eat" nor "excrete", nor if it was intelligent enough that we encountered it as a sentient being, would we have the opportunity to say, shove our hand down it's mouth or check for waste products. Would we even clearly know which end was which?

The creature's mode of travel is similar to centipedes on earth - a continuous ripple effect. Each metal leg is attached to a bladder that is in turn surrounded by muscle. the bladders are temperature controlled by a surrounding of aerogel and veins running outside the bladder, as well as by an extention of the leg that can move inside the bladder.

The creature warms the bladder with the surrounding veins, causing the bladder to swell, and pushing the leg forward. It then releases a sheath of aerogel from around the extention of the leg, which causes that extention (and then the leg itself) to warm. This radiates heat from the bladder, causing it to cool and the muscle to contract, pulling the leg forward. This causes the sheath to close around the leg extention, and the internal fluid again starts to warm the bladder.

The curious result is that the creature has no proper way to stop moving, and so from it's birth onwards, moves.

--> The science is sound... enough. You could make a case that there wouldn't be enough strength in the contracting or expanding bladder, but we really don't know it's entire physiology. This works, imho.

The creature mates by filling one of it's spines, which also triple as penises, with semen until pressure causes it to erupt, firing it at another creature. If the spine penetrates the other creature, the semen find the reproductive organs.

--> Snails. Yeah, this happens, and much worse. Snails are psycho.

The creature protects itself by wrapping and rolling itself into a ball of spikes. It then waits for the predator to go away. Now that it's sentient, it can of course, use a weapon. But it still has the instinct to roll in a stressful situation. Those that do not, become leaders.

--> Millipedes, armadillos, some caterpillars...

This is all just a thought; a fun thinking activity. It may contain errors, but is probably a fairly sound concept overall. I have added this proviso because apparently I didn't the first time and people thought I was dictating what had to be and that I had planned out the entire biology and habitat of this creature in advance. I didn't. Enjoy! :wink:
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Post by Ataraxia »

RemusShepherd wrote:Those are both paths to a valid metabolism. An exothermic creature, for example, is the same temperature as its surroundings. It gets energy from ingestion of food.
Sorry, but I don't quite get what you're saying here. Are you saying that an organism that gets its energy from the heat in its environment would work in the same way as a robot uses electricity? That doesn't work either- in order to get useful work from electricity, you need a difference of potential, i.e. a voltage. In the heat example there is no difference of potential. Any difference in potential must be created by the organism itself (by lowering its own body temperature), but doing so would almost certainly cost more energy than it would create.
RemusShepherd wrote:Organisms that grow need to ingest and excrete. But if you have an organism that doesn't grow -- it enters the world fully formed -- it could thrive on electrical or thermal potentials.
This is how viruses work in the real world. Such an organism would need an unusual reproductive cycle to get around the fact that its parent(s) don't ingest mass, but it has to enter the world fully formed.
rkolter wrote:A simple example - the creature could have bladders of water in it's temperature controlled body. Upon exposure to heat, those cavities could expand as the water inside boiled, and the expansion of those cavities could drive a muscle that lifts a leg. Or it wouldn't have to be water with it's phase conversion to steam - any liquid that expands suitably given heat would work. When the liquid cools, the bladder contracts, and the leg falls.
But in an environment where the liquid in question would naturally be a gas, the organism will be spending energy to cool it back to a liquid state. I guess it could do this by sweating, which doesn't cost much energy, but still... if such a system were really practical, I have to wonder why here on Earth we haven't built power generators using the evaporation/condensation of ammonia as a power source. Or, for that matter, why no organisms on Earth use this as their own energy source.

I don't doubt that pneumatic muscles like you describe could exist; I simply doubt that they could be a source of energy rather than an expense of energy. I know, you originally said "some means of converting heat into other energy", not "uses heat for all its energy needs", but you also said "it will probably be eating. Unless..." so that's the sense in which I took it.

Again, maybe I'm nitpicking too much. Sorry about that. Still, if I saw a creature that gained energy from the high temperature of its homeworld in an otherwise serious scifi story, that would be a major blow to my suspension of disbelief unless they presented a good mechanism by which it could work. For a pulp-sf or sci-fantasy setting I'd be okay with it.
rkolter wrote:I did not say that it would not excrete, only that it may not need to.
Okay. I can accept that.
rkolter wrote:Incidentally, you responded to me, and someone else responded to you - that's how the forums work. If you're specifically interested in having my response, you'd do better to private message me. Forums are a public place, and you ought not ignore someone else's response to you just because you are waiting for one from me.
Huh? I replied to RemusShepherd last night when I saw his post. I didn't reply to dracomax because I didn't think there was anything in his post that really needed a reply from me. This morning I'm replying to RemusShepherd's second post and you. I apologize to anyone who feels like I ignored them. I didn't mean to.

Also, I wasn't specifically waiting for a response from you. You made some interesting suggestions, but I felt there were some logical holes in two of them. If anyone on the board could provide good explanations for how these things could work, that would be good.

Edit- Ooh, lots of activity from the time I started my post and the time I submitted it.
rkolter wrote:This is all just a thought; a fun thinking activity. It may contain errors, but is probably a fairly sound concept overall.
No worries. I have an issue about scifi power generation ever since several of my friends decided The Matrix was the best movie ever.
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ataraxia wrote:I have an issue about scifi power generation ever since several of my friends decided The Matrix was the best movie ever.
>_< I can relate.
Really... compared to The Matrix's humans-as-power-source/food idea, "it lives on heat" sounds pretty good to me.
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ataraxia wrote:Sorry, but I don't quite get what you're saying here. Are you saying that an organism that gets its energy from the heat in its environment would work in the same way as a robot uses electricity? That doesn't work either- in order to get useful work from electricity, you need a difference of potential, i.e. a voltage. In the heat example there is no difference of potential. Any difference in potential must be created by the organism itself (by lowering its own body temperature), but doing so would almost certainly cost more energy than it would create.
Sure it works. A heat differential can be transformed into an electrical differential by certain substances -- piezoelectric crystals immediately come to mind.

I half-remember some author -- I think it was Niven -- creating beings that lived on airless planets, and gained energy by laying half in and half out of sunlight. The thermal potential was turned into electricity and charged their metabolism.

Going off on another tangent, though...has anyone suggested plain conversion of solar power into electricity yet? We are talking about silicon beings, and silicon is used in solar power cells.
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Post by Joel Fagin »

RemusShepherd wrote:Going off on another tangent, though...has anyone suggested plain conversion of solar power into electricity yet? We are talking about silicon beings, and silicon is used in solar power cells.
Hot planets practically by definition have a lot of cloud cover.

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TRI
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Post by TRI »

Also, wouldn't such a planet need rather high pressures to keep all the chemicals necessary for anything interesting to happen from boiling off? That would make for a very dense, and thus dark, atmosphere regardless of whether you actually have anything you'd call a "cloud." Something like the bottom of the ocean.

One thing I've been wondering 'though: what's with all this talk about uniform tempuratures? Wouldn't it me more plausable for there to be a colder place away from the source of the heat? Into the upper atmosphere, or into the ground, or away from the volcanic vent something?

What if the life forms derive energy from some using some kind of heat-sink, like a very long spire or pole, one end of which was in their super-hot environment and the other in some place cooler?

Although all this has gone a long way from "what might silicon-based life forms be like?" Now it's "what might silicon-based life forms that don't derive their energy chemically be like?"

Personally I'd be perfectly satisfied with silicon-based life forms that eat.
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"Yeah, that's the bridge pier (expletive). I thought it was the center. Oh (expletive)." ~ From the transcript of the recording device on board the ship which struck the San Franciso Bay Bridge last year, causing a 50,000 gallon oil spill.

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