Computer vrs. Hand Inking

Zuri · Post by **Zuri** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:56 am

faub wrote:Some pencil based comics:

Kissing Chaos
http://www.onipress.com/titles/titles.php?id=KC2

Blade of the Immortal (also uses some ink)
http://www.math.ucla.edu/~brodsky/blade.html

You missed Bad Blood.

http://www.badbloodcomic.com

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:57 pm

Zuri wrote:You missed Bad Blood.

Ooo.... I've never seen this one. Pretty... 8) How awesome is it when you can list an eraser as a drawing tool?

and we can't forget http://morningstar.keenspace.com/

Alaina · Post by **Alaina** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:26 pm

Hm, off the topic here (which rarely happens in GD), but what is this "Flash" you use, Van? I thought Flash was only for animated stuff. And is it free to download?

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:33 pm

Alaina wrote:Hm, off the topic here (which rarely happens in GD), but what is this "Flash" you use, Van? I thought Flash was only for animated stuff. And is it free to download?

Macromedia Flash, a program integral in websurfing today it can create images in .png, .gif, and .jpeg, animated .gifs, Flash film and game .swfs, Windows Projector film or game .exes, Quicktime .movs and Macintosh .hgxs

The program costs between $300-$550 American, but it's only too easy to get a cracked version because the net is swamped with them.

Evil Jamie! · Post by **Evil Jamie!** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:35 pm

God bless the internet!

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:45 pm

Van Douchebag wrote:
mcDuffies wrote:Van, do you actually know how to ink by hand, with a quill or brush? I guess you don't because then you'd know that it's damn tough, it took me a few years to get a hang of it, and I'm still not satisfied with results.
I used to ink my works. I just stopped because I found I could do superior work with computer inking.

Don't kill me - these are from summer 2002 and early 2003. I had to scan them all from my old portfolio.

http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/vandouche ... spawn2.jpg
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/vandouchebag/violator.jpg
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/vandouche ... spawn1.jpg
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/vandouche ... deyman.jpg

Happy?

And William G has officially ran out of room to talk. Now he's going out against Sortelli.
Before he starts whining how important inks are maybe he should prove it by ameliorating his own work before blasting methods used by myself or Sortelli, or thousands of other webcomic artists.

Fair enough, you know how to ink. But why do you need such extreme opinions on that matter?
I mean, you knock off William G, but I see you being as edgy as he is. We all have our opinions, but it's a matter of being civilised whether we're gonna defend them by yelling at each other discussing calmly. Just because Will G acts one way, doesn't mean you have to follow his example.

To me it all comes down to this: It's hard to do a good job, it's easy to do a bad job. Bad pencils are much easier to make than good ink. Any other combination of bad [insert style] versus good [insert style] applies.

Well inkers and pencilers have been in case for many decades, and I don't think american comics have fallen because of the pencileers and inkers, even comics like Daredevil where the artist draws and inks, is really any better. I think its mostly bland, ideas and the same cookie cutter approach to comics.

Eh, maybe I didn't word it out as I should.
I ment, the way american publishers treat comics (which includes sharing job between penciler and inker with a cause of producing comic as fast as it can be) is the reason for downfall of american comics.
Dividing job to penciling and inking can give good results, meaning that penciler's and inker's sensibilities cross ("Search for timebird" by Loasel/Le Tendre is done that way now, although not as good as it was while only one man was doing it, but still). But for that, you need penciler and inker to actually collaborate - to share opinions, to communicate. Meanwhile, in USA comic industry, the only communication of those two is when penciler mails done pencils to inker. That's why any good result is purely accidental.

Tubesteak Samurai · Post by **Tubesteak Samurai** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:07 pm

Sortelli wrote:... Anyway, I hand-ink my comic because I like to do it and I like the practice. But the more I see how fantastically clean and nice computer lines can be, the more I consider trying it out. If that's "sterile", I want it...

Hey thanks alot Josh! and also double thanks for the shout out on your front page. it's put me over 3200 uniques these past two days

on the topic of digital inking or drawing my personal opinion is that i cannot help but think of digital inking and coloring as a more effictient method that takes just as much skill as doing it by hand. when i first started inking with a tablet in photoshop it was like learning to walk all over again. i haven't picked up or bought a pen in a loooooong time. i still make mistakes just like when i did it by hand but now they don't cost me much more than a couple clicks of the history button.

frankly, i think, to avoid digital tools in comic creating out of traditionalism is a personal choice. nothing more. traditional has never equaled "right" and at no point do the tools you use decide wether what you are creating is art as long as you yourself are an artist.

Xmung · Post by **Xmung** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:11 pm

faub wrote:and we can't forget http://morningstar.keenspace.com/

that looks mighty fine... will have to read all of it i think!

Sortelli · Post by **Sortelli** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:36 am

I call 'em like I see 'em Tubesteak, glad I sent some readers your way.

War · Post by **War** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:42 am

Pah, you're all using newfangled techniques.

*starts chipping a new DW into a giant block of sandstone*

Sortelli · Post by **Sortelli** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:52 am

Probably the most ludicrous example of the old "proper old way versus the new-fangled way" complaint was one of our local paper's idiot columinists named Corky Simpson. I don't get his paper, so I've only read him a couple of times and he's been mind-numbingly dumb every time. The dude's like 80.

And he wrote a whole front page rant for the life section about how it's a shame no one uses type-writers anymore because of computers. He actually wrote a long essay about how old type-writers were like rare violins that had to be coaxed and loved in order to craft a masterpiece of print. And I'm sure the old freak meant every word of it.

I just wish I had been there when his dad told him that the type-writer was a souless, sterile machine that could never replace the art of using the fountain pen.

JexKerome · Post by **JexKerome** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:55 am

Since the flame wars seem to be over, I have to say I agree with Sortelli, RPin and KittyKatBlack. If it'll help my comic look good and practice can make it at least as fast as hand-inking, then I'm all for digital ink.

So, does it get to be as fast as normal inking?

YarpsDat · Post by **YarpsDat** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:44 am

I have absolutely no problem with people using computer inking. If you like it, go for it.
(though it does seem to me it tends to produce the sterile look)

However, I do not agree with this:

Van Douchebag wrote:1- Pencilling is the art. Inking is just some gay-ass cover on it and isn't art at all. It can easily be replicated by a monkey and an image editting program with better results than hand inked work.

I mean, yes. I agree with this:
VanDouche's penciling is the art.
VanDouche's inking is just some lame cover on it, and isn't art at all.
VanDouche's inking could easily be replicated by a monkey, ect.

Look at the drawing- all the details, linewidth variations and everything is there in pencils. Using threshold would be enough inking.

I'm curious... do you use some tools like curve templates?

Anyways, that's not actually how it's done in your glorified industry, van.
Pencilers don't have the time needed to put all that in pencils, and it's actually faster to add some features during inking so that's how it's done.

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:48 am

YarpsDat wrote:I'm curious... do you use some tools like curve templates?

*cocks head and makes grunting noise*
Aruuu?

I can barely tell the tools from a hole in the ground. All I know or care about is how to do the best possible art in the most efficient ways.
I'm not much of a connaiseur of this kind of stuff - I'm more of the "think-on-the-fly-learn-as-I-go" kind of person.

YarpsDat · Post by **YarpsDat** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:58 am

Okay, I was just curious, because edges of your penciled areas are quite smooth.

BTW, how long does it take you?

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:18 am

YarpsDat wrote:Okay, I was just curious, because edges of your penciled areas are quite smooth.

BTW, how long does it take you?

*thinks*
Dunno... I don't really count because I get easily distracted because I don't take my comics serious. I watch TV while pencilling, or surf the net while coloring.

Without distractions, from story board to finished version, it takes me anywhere between 4 to 6 hours, depending on how much I much into the comic. The hardest part sometimes is getting those filler comics between plot points, but the current last strips have had no trouble with such a thing because the story is actually continuing along rather nicely.

That's why I started White Hydra with a flashback, followed by 12 or 13 pages explaining the backstory and the main goal of the villain. I wanted to get that out of the way right away so I could easily move into actual comics. However, in a few strips, I'll have to do some more backstory, mainly that of the holy white hydra Kiddush HaShem (Hebrew for "sanctification of the name of God", but is better translated as "martyr") and the demon dragon Draconigena Diablo (Latin, literally translated as "dragon-born devil", or better translated as "devil born of dragon").

After that it's back to mindless comics.

Another difficult thing is coming up with Samara's facial expressions sometimes. Being the main character, and being so somber compared to the other cast members, I get to draw her with puzzled expressions and whatnot which is amusing, but sometimes difficult.

Tubesteak Samurai · Post by **Tubesteak Samurai** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:46 am

Van Douchebag wrote:...Another difficult thing is coming up with Samara's facial expressions sometimes. Being the main character, and being so somber compared to the other cast members, I get to draw her with puzzled expressions and whatnot which is amusing, but sometimes difficult.

i had that same problem with E'los. part of it came from the fact that he is the stereotypical straight-man and part of it came from the fact that i was using templates.

his personality has evolved since the first strip ti involve a certain number of... emotions. abandoning the templates helped me to better express those. i abandoned those templates whenit occured to me that i didn't know how to draw my own characters without them. if i ever decided to go to a con it would have been embarassing to have a fan request a sketch and have to sit there a "trace" one out in front of them.

practically every image of E'los in the first 20 something strips looked like this:

thisis how he looks now:

i'm not the best inker in the world but i wouldn't go back to hand inking if i could (which i guess there's no reason why i can't :? ) i can achieve much more with the tablet than i ever could with pens. i always wanted to get that paint bruch feel with my inking but never wanted to learn to use the brush. now i don't have to.

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:56 am

There was something I was going to say...
Hm... it's on the tip of my tongue... I hope I don't forget it.

Oh yeah - your shit is the bomb!

ShineDog · Post by **ShineDog** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:37 pm

there also seems to be some idea that a comic inked on a computer is going to have nice clean lines like hydra or PA. Gateway.keenspace.com , my comic, ok its hardly to the standards of the aformentioned comics, but it doesnt LOOK remotley like them, and theres no paper in the process anywhere.

i'd like to think im improving, but its not really true.

not re: haphazard text. the entire opening is being re-worded, and some of the comics are updated, some arent, so if you read it, it wont really flow right.

note to anyone else who reads, no further comics are being posted untill i finish the first chapter, whereupon ill do up the site (read : get techy spod friend to do it)

rah.

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:09 pm

The nice clean lines are good until you don't want them anymore. Sometimes it is more effective to use sloppy ink, to splatter the ink on the page. Dip your brush in the ink well and flick it onto the paper without actually touching it so you get a spray effect that can't be drawn quite the same way.

Also, being efficient just means you're fast and you can use the tools you have. Give a master caligrapher a brush and an ink well and he'll produce some amazing stuff. Give him a computer and you'll have to teach him how to use a mouse. (Give him a month and he'll use your program better than you do.)

A computer is a tool much the same way a brush or a pencil is a tool. One is not better than another though you may be more adept at using one than the other. Claiming that one is inherently better or faster is rather pointless, especially when you haven't bothered to learn the other. I mean really. How would YOU know?