An open letter to StrRedWolf

Rkolter · Post by **Rkolter** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:27 pm

StrRedWolf, I've dealt with you before via ICQ, and you've always been on the level. I'm hoping that you'll read this letter.

I don't care about your locking of threads. People will complain, but new threads will be generated. Life will move on. I also don't care about your adding new forums. Excellent. They'll be beneficial.

I do care about the banning of VileTerror.

VT was a son-of-a-bitch and an ass initially - nobody denies that, not even VT, who at the time relished in it. But since that time, she's gotten generally better. A month or two ago, you'd have heard cheering about banning VT.

But VT has become a member of the community. Don't look at the cuss-filled rants of her ardent supporters; look at the responses of the people who have been here a long time. The banning of VT was a wildly unpopular decision. Not just among her friends, but among the people who didn't like (or don't like) her as well. This really does say something.

You are a moderator of the forums and a major portion of Keenspace in general. But you are not a big portion of this forum. You (and the other moderators) are on so rarely in fact, that one of us (Yarpsdat) had to be chosen to moderate in your stead.

Listen to the voices in this forum; you have the authority to ban VT, but if it doesn't affect you one way or another, and the people whom it does affect are against it, is it right to use that authority? At the very least, the person who should have been asked to make that decision is Yarpsdat, since he's the moderator who most frequently visits this forum.

Please unban VT, or if there is a really serious, legitimate reason for banning her, please tell us so that we can respond intelligently to the situation.

Thanks for listening.

Superlance · Post by **Superlance** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:50 pm

Ah, nicely worded letter, rkolter.
And I would like to add a note of caution to the rest of you fanatic (TheGoobla, TOXIC AVENGER, etc..) Vile supporters.
Out of all the all the posts you have made unto this subject; rkolter's is the only one I have read that carries any respect for STrRedWolf.
They are sloppy, and disrespectful; and will more likely anger RedWolf than incline Kelly to reinstate Vile.
I would like to suggest to all of you that you let rkolter do all of the talking before you get yourself banned.

I will accept the apologies of anyone I have insulted.

KittyKatBlack · Post by **KittyKatBlack** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:56 pm

I haven't been around long enough to know Kelly, but being a mod isn't easy and sometimes you step on toes when you don't mean to. I have nothing against StRedWolf, but her current actions, I will say I feel were not appropriate for the situation. I'm trying to be civil, and I support VT coming back, but I'm not going to picket the forums over it. I agree with RKolter's statements too. To make a long story short-

*signs her name at the bottom of the letter too*

TheGoobla · Post by **TheGoobla** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:07 pm

Superlance wrote:Ah, nicely worded letter, rkolter.
And I would like to add a note of caution to the rest of you fanatic (TheGoobla, TOXIC AVENGER, etc..) Vile supporters.
Out of all the all the posts you have made unto this subject; rkolter's is the only one I have read that carries any respect for STrRedWolf.
They are sloppy, and disrespectful; and will more likely anger RedWolf than incline Kelly to reinstate Vile.
I would like to suggest to all of you that you let rkolter do all of the talking before you get yourself banned.

I will accept the apologies of anyone I have insulted.

Considering I do not remember ranting, nor cussing, nor behaving like a buffoon in general, I find your inclusion of me in that list offensive and short sighted. The only things I happen to remember doing was, releasing an official statement from CuAuC, after all, it was my duty considering the role VT has played in this upstart little coalition.

Should I have responded angrily, it is because I had just learned a good forum friend had been banned. How the hell else would one respond? Would you merely make some meager, apathetic post that only goes to prove you honestly don't care either way?

I also remember wholeheartedly concurring that the banning was unjust and uncalled for as well. I also remember starting an online store, a la a cheezy shirt salesman trying to make a buck off of the latest trend. And finally, putting up some avatars as a form of peaceful protest. It doesnt really seem to me that those avatars were hurting anybody, nor insulting anybody, nor in anyway making the users wearing them seem like ardent jackasses, to paraphrase rkolter.

Do not call me a fanatic, nor a supporter, because that would imply I am in support of VileTerror's spamming. I do not in fact support her spam, however, despite getting on the bad side of a few people that seem to be quite unforgiving and currently holding silent grudges, I believe Vile was a good all around whatever it was. Perhaps you dont care, because Vile is just another member to you, one who gained a bad reputation for foolish behaviour. And for that, I am sorry that you cannot see beyond the past and get to know people for who they are, and not who you think they are.

I will accept the apologies of anyone I have insulted.

At first, I thought that that should be the other way 'round, be now that I think about, Im not so sure.

Now, both of your harsh invectives aside, I will hereby submit my name for inclusion on the letter.

Nyke · Post by **Nyke** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:17 pm

* signs name at bottom of letter *

Superlance · Post by **Superlance** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:27 pm

TheGoobla wrote:
Superlance wrote:Ah, nicely worded letter, rkolter.
And I would like to add a note of caution to the rest of you fanatic (TheGoobla, TOXIC AVENGER, etc..) Vile supporters.
Out of all the all the posts you have made unto this subject; rkolter's is the only one I have read that carries any respect for STrRedWolf.
They are sloppy, and disrespectful; and will more likely anger RedWolf than incline Kelly to reinstate Vile.
I would like to suggest to all of you that you let rkolter do all of the talking before you get yourself banned.

I will accept the apologies of anyone I have insulted.
Considering I do not remember ranting, nor cussing, nor behaving like a buffoon in general, I find your inclusion of me in that list offensive and short sighted. The only things I happen to remember doing was, releasing an official statement from CuAuC, after all, it was my duty considering the role VT has played in this upstart little coalition.

Should I have responded angrily, it is because I had just learned a good forum friend had been banned. How the hell else would one respond? Would you merely make some meager, apathetic post that only goes to prove you honestly don't care either way?

I also remember wholeheartedly concurring that the banning was unjust and uncalled for as well. I also remember starting an online store, a la a cheezy shirt salesman trying to make a buck off of the latest trend. And finally, putting up some avatars as a form of peaceful protest. It doesnt really seem to me that those avatars were hurting anybody, nor insulting anybody, nor in anyway making the users wearing them seem like ardent jackasses, to paraphrase rkolter.

Do not call me a fanatic, nor a supporter, because that would imply I am in support of VileTerror's spamming. I do not in fact support her spam, however, despite getting on the bad side of a few people that seem to be quite unforgiving and currently holding silent grudges, I believe Vile was a good all around whatever it was. Perhaps you dont care, because Vile is just another member to you, one who gained a bad reputation for foolish behaviour. And for that, I am sorry that you cannot see beyond the past and get to know people for who they are, and not who you think they are.

I will accept the apologies of anyone I have insulted.
At first, I thought that that should be the other way 'round, be now that I think about, Im not so sure.

Whatever your intentions may have been, you did not present them in this way.
I Ok with Vile being reinstated.
I am not OK with all you of idiots getting yourself banned becuase you don't know how to write a proper letter.
If all of you get banned, it will serve no purpose whatsoever.
Vile's case will be forgotten; and you will be absent, thus unable to remind anyone willing to listen.
Filling the entire first page of GD with threads about Vile will just make STrRedWolf angry.
If you must, contain yourselves to one or two threads; or Kelly will lock them all.
Then, I forget who suggested it, but you should all get together, and write a polite letter to RedWolf; explain yourselves clearly, but not bluntly; and be calm, but not careless.
The pen is mightier than the sword; and you must use this to your advantage, or suffer the consequences.

Ron, the mad one · Post by **Ron, the mad one** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:12 am

im not sure if my voice counts here, because i am an "ardent supporter" but

*signs name on bottom of the list*

Jops · Post by **Jops** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:26 am

I'm no aderent supporter, but i believe that ban was inappropriate so...

*add his name to the list*

Yeahduff · Post by **Yeahduff** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:44 am

I'm glad it was you who beat me to it, Kolter.

*signs name*

Somesuch · Post by **Somesuch** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:51 am

Several weeks ago VT was an absolute pain here at the forums. I don't think anybody has forgotten this. However, people can change, and they can do so remarkably swiftly.

I don't honestly care one way or another whether VT's ban is lifted. Maybe I'll piss some of you off in saying that, but I don't. VT is capable of behaving and was capable of behaving in the past when he/she/it was causing so much trouble. There's no guarantee that he/she/it will or will not cause trouble again. Since it hasn't directly pestered me of late, I have no issues with it, but I know that some people still do. Their opinions and their clinging to the past matters just as much as anyone's who feels that VT's ban ought to be lifted.

I honestly think that this should ultimately be the decision of the moderators alone. If they review the decision, so be it. If they maintain the ban, that's fine by me. Having power won't always make you popular, even when you use it responsibly, because no matter what you do, you're rarely going to please everyone. That's just the way it is.

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:31 am

Yesterday Minority Report was aired. If there's anything that movie thaught us, it is we cannot punish people for the crimes that they would possibly commit.

I second everything RKolter said, and I'm against everything that's been done in this forum.

I do not agree with the banning, the thread locking/moving, the separation of the forums, and the idea the idea that I have to watch what I say in General Discussion in order not to be banned/locked/moved.

What's with the facist attitude?

[EDIT] I said "reparation of the forums", but I meant separation. Sorry.

TheGoobla · Post by **TheGoobla** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:35 am

Well put RPin.

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:14 am

TheGoobla wrote:Should I have responded angrily, it is because I had just learned a good forum friend had been banned. How the hell else would one respond? Would you merely make some meager, apathetic post that only goes to prove you honestly don't care either way?

Like what was just said: the pen is mightier than the sword: my motto for the forums is the same one I use for fencing:

"Keep your head, or you'll lose it."

If you can't make an intelligent argument and get angry instead, your credibilty is just going to go tumbling out the window. In short, no one is going to listen to you if you sound like a crazed fanatic.

To be fair, while VT's early behaviour was certainly ban-worthy, after the initial panicky email, Vile did start to behave right after Yarps got made moderator.

Of course, it was a pure stroke of irony that it was its own email protesting Yarps's appointment that got it banned.

I can understand Yarps for not mourning VT, after all, that email did cause a lot of trouble for him, and came pretty close to slander, (libel, whatever).

I can also understand StrRedWolf feeling rather deceived by Vile and banning it as a result (VT's past behaviour would have also counted against him).

All that said...

Maybe I'm just a big softie who believes there is some good in everyone, but I don't see Vile as a truly bad person. Attention-seeking and mostimes annoying, maybe, but not maliciously bad. And definetely not as bad as some others who have come and gone.

There certainly is some good in VT; I remember on a couple of occasions when VT went out of character and very kindly helped out some of the newbies in the Help Center.

Whatever the motives it might have had for have for doing so, if he can make good and do more of that; and also behave itself in the forums in general, than maybe it does deserve the consideration for a second chance.

Ultimately the decision to unban is Kelly's.

ps: I wouldn't worry about the forums becoming a parody of Elf Only Inn if I were you. If there's more than one active moderator in a forum, it's less likely one of them will let it go to their head and play God since there's always the other moderator to keep tabs on them. Yarps is sometimes seen as harsh, but I do believe he is fair. (He was willing to let VT stay if it behaved itself, if you recall) And Faub is always impartial and reasonable, so I do think GD will be fine once everyone gets over the shock.

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:24 am

I have more faith in faub and Yarps than in this person. I've been here for six months and it's the first time I saw him.

And quite a way to leave a good first impression, if you ask me.

TheGoobla · Post by **TheGoobla** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:16 am

Phalanx wrote:
TheGoobla wrote:Should I have responded angrily, it is because I had just learned a good forum friend had been banned. How the hell else would one respond? Would you merely make some meager, apathetic post that only goes to prove you honestly don't care either way?
If you can't make an intelligent argument and get angry instead, your credibilty is just going to go tumbling out the window. In short, no one is going to listen to you if you sound like a crazed fanatic.

That's all well and good, my dear Phalanx, but the most pathetic thing of all is that it seems everyone has felt the need to completely ignore the parodic nature of my own angry posts. And I find it quite odd that I seem to be singled out as a fanatic, since aside from the occasionally satirical "Lib

Executor_Arthas · Post by **Executor_Arthas** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:21 am

Yeah, I honestly think that they shouldmake Yarps an admin, so that way someone who frequents the forums (besides Kaisi) will be able to do stuff, like clean-up people's pages, and help more in the Help Forums.

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:25 am

Phalanx wrote:In short, no one is going to listen to you if you sound like a crazed fanatic.

TheGoobla wrote: That's all well and good, my dear Phalanx, but the most pathetic thing of all is that it seems everyone has felt the need to completely ignore the parodic nature of my own angry posts. And I find it quite odd that I seem to be singled out as a fanatic, since aside from the occasionally satirical "Lib

TheGoobla · Post by **TheGoobla** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:27 am

That's fine. But Im still angry to be included in the above fanatics list!

I AM NOT A FANTAIC! I WILL STAB J00!

Executor_Arthas · Post by **Executor_Arthas** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:56 am

Oh, I forgot, *signs letter* I also have a copy of John Hancock's signature if anyone wants me to forge it? (he gave some stuff back to my family, and gave us amnesty)

Sortelli · Post by **Sortelli** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:59 am

RPin wrote:I have more faith in faub and Yarps than in this person. I've been here for six months and it's the first time I saw him.

And quite a way to leave a good first impression, if you ask me.

I don't know Kelly, but I will vouch for her. The two times I've seen her (or is Kelly a him? I dunno) act was:

1) Stopping Bobby Crosby from trolling and flaming us (even though we were being less than loving to him and his comic)
2) Yanking the animated sex gif Toxic used as an avatar.

Both were justified, and if Chris Crosby's younger brother isn't treated with favortism by the mods around here, I think that speaks volumes. Remember that the ONLY reason Kelly went on a cleaning spree and banned VT was because VT contacted her, not because she popped in to drop the mallet unannounced. I can see how someone would assume that there were problems going on that needed to be addressed, and how VT's Spam And Annoy Marathon would be seen as a root cause of it all. So I don't think that's reason to doubt Kelly. 'Specially when we're trying to diplomatically ask that her decision be undone.

That said, I don't agree with any threads being locked, or with VT being banned, or with plugs being pushed off into a different forum etc etc etc. I think we were doing a decent job hashing our problems out on our own. I'd like to see GD go back to being a rowdy free for all.