I feel so pwned, as the kids would say.

Post by **Kisai** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:09 am

re, hardware:

This was brought up time and time again to nate, but I think right now the limitation is that the server is in a fixed-size rack and it would require taking more space in the rack to get a server with more than two physical drives.
I'd love to get a RAID system...

re, database back end:
I'll change the DB back end, I'll even show you a schema of it if you want, but I'm not rewriting it from scratch again, nor is the "entire thing going to be rewritten" as something has to be completely written and tested before being implemented, not the other way around... the reason keenspace is in the state it is is because we switched to the DB and threw away the flat files. That's why newsbox doesn't update... the code for it is gone.
That's why the "all comics drop down" doesn't work, because I commented it out (that and it increased peoples pages by 400KB+)

The dynamic php system wouldn't work on keenspace because enabling php would allow people to put php on their systems and tamper with other peoples sites. The way apache/ftp is setup right now negates php/perl use on any dynamicly hosted site (*.keenspace.com) unless it has it's own httpd.conf block... and each block takes up space... and unless you only want 500 comics per server, that isn't changing. It used to be QUITE a mess before it switched to the dynamic system... and still is for domain sites, since if they move off keenspace, their domain block doesn't get deleted and takes up space in RAM when apache is running.

I like this http://www.acropolisprime.com/allstars/allstar.html , in theory I could make something like this, but then people without javascript/css wouldn't be able to see it IMO, has it been tested on javascript disabled IE/Mozilla ? Still it's much prettier than http://www.keenspace.com and I'd replace it in an instant if I could automate it.

Stuff Kisai touches:
Guide
DB backend
all commandline utilities EXCEPT autokeen itself (the thing that parses tags and copies comics over)
siteadmin/siteadmintest/guide/members (BOARDY)
siteadmin2/guide2/members2 (YDK)

Stuff Kisai will not touch except under certain situations
Autokeen (removing all-dropdown support)
http://www.keenspace.com (Kelly wrote it)
Forum DB (forums are on their own server which I don't have a shell account on)

There is no question that Keenspace needs to be properly backed up, the server itself burned itself out not to long ago (see the LJ post) and the CoLo replaced the rack unit and put the drive in and off it went. ... now if the drive went... x_X

Rickzki · Post by **Rickzki** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:50 am

Kisai wrote:re, hardware:

This was brought up time and time again to nate, but I think right now the limitation is that the server is in a fixed-size rack and it would require taking more space in the rack to get a server with more than two physical drives.
I'd love to get a RAID system...

re, database back end:
I'll change the DB back end, I'll even show you a schema of it if you want, but I'm not rewriting it from scratch again, nor is the "entire thing going to be rewritten" as something has to be completely written and tested before being implemented, not the other way around... the reason keenspace is in the state it is is because we switched to the DB and threw away the flat files. That's why newsbox doesn't update... the code for it is gone.
That's why the "all comics drop down" doesn't work, because I commented it out (that and it increased peoples pages by 400KB+)

The dynamic php system wouldn't work on keenspace because enabling php would allow people to put php on their systems and tamper with other peoples sites. The way apache/ftp is setup right now negates php/perl use on any dynamicly hosted site (*.keenspace.com) unless it has it's own httpd.conf block... and each block takes up space... and unless you only want 500 comics per server, that isn't changing. It used to be QUITE a mess before it switched to the dynamic system... and still is for domain sites, since if they move off keenspace, their domain block doesn't get deleted and takes up space in RAM when apache is running.

I like this http://www.acropolisprime.com/allstars/allstar.html , in theory I could make something like this, but then people without javascript/css wouldn't be able to see it IMO, has it been tested on javascript disabled IE/Mozilla ? Still it's much prettier than http://www.keenspace.com and I'd replace it in an instant if I could automate it.

Stuff Kisai touches:
Guide
DB backend
all commandline utilities EXCEPT autokeen itself (the thing that parses tags and copies comics over)
siteadmin/siteadmintest/guide/members (BOARDY)
siteadmin2/guide2/members2 (YDK)

Stuff Kisai will not touch except under certain situations
Autokeen (removing all-dropdown support)
http://www.keenspace.com (Kelly wrote it)
Forum DB (forums are on their own server which I don't have a shell account on)

There is no question that Keenspace needs to be properly backed up, the server itself burned itself out not to long ago (see the LJ post) and the CoLo replaced the rack unit and put the drive in and off it went. ... now if the drive went... x_X

Well, there are 1u rack units that support mutiple drives/RAID so space shouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately for some reason it is. I don't know the host nor do I know their server room so I can't say anything about it.

Regarding the dynamic php system that I intend to sit down and write some code for in my free time, it would not make use of use accessible ftp directories anymore. All the end user sees is a web based content management app that lets them add a comic, modify a comic, add news, and so on and so forth. In no way, shape, or form would a user be allowed to upload their own PHP code.

Essentially, what the Space is right now is a collection of web directories that we have write access to. If you're doing a typical web hosting system that is of course the way its done. However, my idea would change it from being a web hosting provider with manual uploads and such to being a web content provider. There is a significant difference in these two approaches. Now, is it what anybody who is currently hosted on Keen wants? Possibly not. A lot of people like to have their hands on control. But, in the end this is a detriment to the Space as a Keen brand. Why? Because there is no control over look and feel. Anybody can do what they want to do within certain limits. This very freedom prevents the possibility of a more organized structure that would promote KeenSpace as a brand.

Keen is a company and companies are out to make money. In order to do this a company needs to capitalize on its assets. Space is not only currently a free hosting solution, but it remains a company asset as well. One that, as I'm sure Ghastly would agree, is underutilized. How do you make better use of it? My stab at it would be by providing more structure and uniformity. While some might not like the idea of a loss of control, I'm sure some would welcome not having to worry about administering the HTML on their site, or who would enjoy the opportunity to market KeenSpace as a brand rather than a ghetto that occasionally gets trawled for new talent. Why? Because it could theoretically increase traffic to their site and provide a level of stability that wasn't present before that.

It will take some time to code together what I'm talking about so that I can provide a physical example. As I mentioned earlier, if the Keen Admins aren't interested, hey its all cool. Maybe I'll take it then and start up my own little syndicate or use it as a resume piece. However, KeenSpace cannot continue to grow on an infrastructure made of popsicle sticks and bubble gum. Whether my idea becomes a viable solution or somebody comes up with something even better, the foundation does need to be rebuilt.

I make no apologies about stepping on any toes. To me, this isn't about egos and who is right and who is wrong. It is about coming up with a future plan for KeenSpace growth that might interest the Keen Execs.

Post by **Kisai** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:13 pm

It's barely popsicle sticks and bubblegum. Any code I've written in perl is solid...

It's the CGI stuff that I really want to trash and start over since, although its' solid, it's also impossible to debug (as there is no commandline, and the way its' written negates using 'dummy' cgi )

Which is why I want to move the client-side to php.

Now... I understand what you want to do, but I do not like maintaining two sets of DB. If you're interested I can send you a copy of the current schema and you can adapt around it, or write import scripts or whatever...

However if you actually want to implement it -LIVE- that's a whole other game. Run it by Chris, Teri, Gav and Nate...

It took a year just to replace the dead "keenspace list" with the guide. And by that time it was rewritten three times.

So if you want to implement it on a test server you have, go right ahead.

PM me if you are interested in the schema. If you'd rather write something from scratch ... well whatever.

Incidently, the way the system is setup (I over simplified it) is much more than just 4 tables(its' actually about 20), but I need to actually use a block diagram to describe it, not text.

Rickzki · Post by **Rickzki** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:33 am

I would certainly be interested in seeing a diagram of the db schema, if only to get a better understanding of how the current system works. My intent was to of course develop it on my own and then eventually upload it to a test server with some test data. More as a way of showing what I'm talking about and giving people the opportunity to discuss it- not necessarily as something that I'd expect to be implemented as a live system. Really, to me with no real code attachment, its about experimenting and trying to find something that will function as one web app as opposed to multiple scripts and cgi's as well as trying to provoke some new ideas as to what Keen could be if its underlying technology were handled differently. Plus, I could always use it as a resume piece if it ever made it that far. Thanks Kisai.

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:18 pm

I can baffle many people with my programming skills but the amount of coding you two are talking about boggles my mind. I've spent months on something similar to this and it was never finished in any significant way. You make it sound so trivial.

I bow to your l33t ninja coding skillz. 8)

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:59 pm

Saddly all my mad programming skills are pretty much limited to 650X machine code.

Not terribly useful now adays. Last time I used it was to write software for the Atari 2600 videogame console.

Rickzki · Post by **Rickzki** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:29 am

LOL... i have to l77t ninja coding skills. I'm still basically a junior level developer and my primary web scripting language is coldfusion. In theory it sounds simple enough to me, just a variation on a dynamic content delivery system. But when it comes down to it it could be somewhat difficult. It's certainly not something I could do in less then a month on the little free time that I have. But I am looking forward to cutting my teeth on it, I think it'd be fun to learn by doing.

Wander · Post by **Wander** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:47 am

Since there seems to be a lot of problems and dissatisfaction about Keenspace, Mr. Manley now offers an alternative. (He's never one to miss exploiting Keen's shortcomings)

At some of the higher hosting levels, you can even make your own "mini-Keenspot" and reap all the rewards therein.

http://www.webcomicsnation.com/

It may not be for everyone, but some here might be able to alleviate their frustration.

Best regards,