KGB Confiscates A Webcartoonist's Equipment, Threatens Jail

[Warren]

Damn Southern douchebags.

Bite me, carpetbagger.

Was born in South Carolina. Still stand by my statement concerning the Diana case.

[Wishmaster]

I amended my post so as to not sound quite as bitchy.

[Sortelli]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was relating an actual case, but we have legal recourse against that kind of thing.

Yeah, but you need money for that and comic artists don't get much. The end result ends up the same.

- Joel Fagin

One isolated case of injustice certainly does not make the systems equivilent.

We can also support things like this.

[McDuffies]

Geez, Sortelli, cut the drama!

[Joel Fagin]

One isolated case of injustice certainly does not make the systems equivilent.

Well... This thread is about an isolated case of injustice. Okay, yes, there are almost certainly other similar examples, possibly not involving comics, from the same country but... ditto for America. There's really not a lot of difference except that the systems suporting the injustices run along different lines. It doesn't hange the fact they're both unfair.

- Joel Fagin

[Evil Jamie!]

>_>

...so long as I wasn't the only one who did that..

Three of us who read it that way? Za!

Make that four.

Five.

[Sortelli]

One isolated case of injustice certainly does not make the systems equivilent.

Well... This thread is about an isolated case of injustice. Okay, yes, there are almost certainly other similar examples, possibly not involving comics, from the same country but... ditto for America. There's really not a lot of difference except that the systems suporting the injustices run along different lines. It doesn't hange the fact they're both unfair.

- Joel Fagin

So . . . a form of government where the state can enter a man's home, seize his personal property on the basis that he used it to "insult" the government and threaten him with a jail sentence is equivilent with the government of the country where you and I are speaking on a forum paid for by guys like Chris Crosby who make their money doing, among other things, publishing online comics that "insult" our own government . . . because you remembered an anecdotal incident of an artist being censored that was briefly mentioned in one of Scott McCloud's books on comics.

So contrary to what you are saying, there really IS a lot of difference, both in practice and in results.

[Sortelli]

Geez, Sortelli, cut the drama!

Bite me, carpetbagger!

[Prettysenshi]

One isolated case of injustice certainly does not make the systems equivilent.

Well... This thread is about an isolated case of injustice. Okay, yes, there are almost certainly other similar examples, possibly not involving comics, from the same country but... ditto for America. There's really not a lot of difference except that the systems suporting the injustices run along different lines. It doesn't hange the fact they're both unfair.

- Joel Fagin

So . . . a form of government where the state can enter a man's home, seize his personal property on the basis that he used it to "insult" the government and threaten him with a jail sentence is equivilent with the government of the country where you and I are speaking on a forum paid for by guys like Chris Crosby who make their money doing, among other things, publishing online comics that "insult" our own government . . . because you remembered an anecdotal incident of an artist being censored that was briefly mentioned in one of Scott McCloud's books on comics.

So contrary to what you are saying, there really IS a lot of difference, both in practice and in results.

whoa. nice comeback.

[Joel Fagin]

So . . . a form of government where the state can enter a man's home, seize his personal property on the basis that he used it to "insult" the government and threaten him with a jail sentence is equivilent with the government of the country where you and I are speaking on a forum paid for by guys like Chris Crosby who make their money doing, among other things, publishing online comics that "insult" our own government . . . because you remembered an anecdotal incident of an artist being censored that was briefly mentioned in one of Scott McCloud's books on comics.

No. I was just pointing out that your comment that it was an isolated case applies to both situations, not just America's. And my original comment was mainly just to get people to stop and think before they take the the Belarus incident as anything other than an isolated one. I mean, it might not be, but stopping to think about it first is always a good idea, if only because that's exactly what the media outlets don't want to you to do. Sensationlism doesn't work if you think too hard.

- Joel Fagin

[Stealthy]

Might be of interest...

[quote]Saddam has only got one ball
Ben Macintyre
The first sign that a tyrant's days are numbered comes with the mocking laughter of his people



A RARE BOOK of cartoons satirising Adolf Hitler, but officially sanctioned by the F

[Sortelli]

Joel: Your first instinct in hearing about a cartoonist in Belarus who has his property seized over his political expressions was to claim that America does similar things.

Isn't that just a little bit of an exaggeration? Sensationalism, even? It certainly doesn't do anything to highlight the very real oppression that occurs over there to conflate it with the freedoms we take for granted.

America most certainly does NOT do similar things to this, that's my point. Specifically, it would be completely illegal for our law enforcement officials to break into someone's home and confiscate their property on the mere basis of insulting the government. And it's not a matter of our system just doing the same thing differently, because insulting our government is a sacred national passtime that we engage in with great relish.

The result is that here, Chris Crosby can both create a webcomic collective and give voice to not only himself but to thousands of Keenspacers-cum-ComicGenesists, and take up a side hobby of writing a comic that insults our government without any fear that the secret police are going to smash in here and confiscate the Keen servers over anything he or we produce. We can also form or support groups that provide legal defense and argument against anyone who tries to take action against us. You'll never get that in a society where people can be whisked off the street for saying the wrong thing, where sharing ideas is a danger.

No system cannot be completely fair, but our system is open, which means we're all free to participate and keep each other from suffering this guy's fate, or even the fate of that guy Scott McCloud mentioned. It's a huge difference and throwing in a cheap shot at "media outlets and sensationalism" doesn't change that.

[Joel Fagin]

Joel: Your first instinct in hearing about a cartoonist in Belarus who has his property seized over his political expressions was to claim that America does similar things.

*shrug* It does. At their core, both are curtailing individual freedoms on frivolous excuses. In fact, the American example is arguably more insidious since it did it with the backing of the community. At least in Belarus it's the will of a minority. The minority in power, yes, but a minority.

Anyway, like I said, it was just there to make people stop and think. If a similar sensationalist comment can apply to America then people might pause before accepting the first one on face value.

I knew a sprinter who was interviewed by a little local paper. They said he was planning on trying for the next Olympics so that they could have a local hero in the paper. He had no plans to do that at all.

You can't trust this stuff. It's designed to get you emotional, upset and obsessive. That's not to say it's not true, mind, but you should certainly consider the possibility parts have been deliberatly left out or altered to get the public on side.

- Joel Fagin

[McDuffies]

Sheesh guys, really, do we need a political fight?

Fact 1: Belarussia is a tyrany

Fact 2: America is not a tyrany

Fact 3: Not all is well with America either, although not as much as in Belarussia.

I don't think that this arguement needs to go any further than this.

[Sortelli]

For the record, this isn't a fight. No ill will, Joel, mcDuffies.

To clarify, though, I might have misunderstood your point from the get-go, Joel. Is it that you mean that we shouldn't get all worked up over what happened to these guys in Belarus because you think the media's making hay out of it?

That's different than making the US and Belarus morally equivilent, but... even taking into account that there's another side to this story than what we're getting from the cartoonists who had their stuff ganked it's hard to see what kind of justification can possibly be made for what the KGB did here that wasn't reported.

[Blackaby]

...I do have to say that recently - perhaps in the last four months - a friend-of-a-livejournal-friend was brought in by the FBI, interrogated, and now has a permanant record and will be "monitored".

This was because of posting something anti-government (a satirical entry) in her livejournal. Someone (ie a "livejournal enemy") contacted the authorities.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/anniesj/331112.html

[Joel Fagin]

I don't think that this arguement needs to go any further than this.

I wouldn't worry about it. I've stated my position, justified it and then clarified further. I never go beyond that in internet arguments these days.

To clarify, though, I might have misunderstood your point from the get-go, Joel. Is it that you mean that we shouldn't get all worked up over what happened to these guys in Belarus because you think the media's making hay out of it?

Might be, yes. I don't mean to make blanket statements about the media either, but I find it's best not to trust them from the start.

Cynicism is more fun anyway.

- Joel Fagin

[Sortelli]

...I do have to say that recently - perhaps in the last four months - a friend-of-a-livejournal-friend was brought in by the FBI, interrogated, and now has a permanant record and will be "monitored".

This was because of posting something anti-government (a satirical entry) in her livejournal. Someone (ie a "livejournal enemy") contacted the authorities.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/anniesj/331112.html

Yeah, we've had laws about making threats of violence against any current president "even as a joke" since Lincoln was shot all dem years ago. I note that in the link she stresses over and over that she doesn't intend to do anyone harm, since that's the core of the issue. Incitement to violence is illegal in lots of cases besides "let's kill the president".

It's too bad that someone felt so threatened by what she wrote to be petty and report it because it's pretty obvious she meant nothing serious.

Joel:

You won't get any argument from me about not taking the media at face value, but what happened to these guys still remains illegal here in the States, regardless of majority or minority rule. I'm interested in looking up this Diana guy now to find out if the judge's ruling against him was ever over-turned as it should have been.

EDIT: Nope, it wasn't. Went all the way up to the Supreme Court, too. Obscenity laws.

[Wishmaster]

Isolated cases in the U.S.? The entire comics code was an attempt to control what comic artists could and could not put into their own work. Entire publishers were put out of business or made to change their entire lineup of titles. Worst of all, it was a case of voluntary self-censorship brought about by mass hysteria and government pressure - - heck, I could never see something like that happening again.

Bite me, carpetbaggers!

[Sortelli]

The only way I can honestly see something like that happen again is if the public at large gets too weary of hearing people cry wolf over censorship... but they will take my cartoon boobies when they pry them out of my COLD. DEAD. HANDS.