Freedom isn't fried...

[LoneWolfandCub]

it's pretty good. the art isn't too good though. but it's funny.

[LibertyCabbage]

alright i'll work on making it neater and more presentable. i'll probably have to ditch the occasional use of colors but I don't mind that (I like B&W anyway). I think if I start using printed panels and scanning it as black and white then it'll look a notch better AND be easier to draw (since I won't have to draw the panels every time)

Also I've decided to update weekdays instead of daily... I don't think anyone will be upset =p

[Malediction]

Site could use some work, but the humour is spot on. And I think the simple art compliments that, but yeah, it couldn't hurt to be neater.

[LibertyCabbage]

What should I do with the site? I know enough HTML to make it look okay, I just don't know artistically how it should look.

[Dominic]

OK, what's the joke? Do you folks actually enjoy this? I'm going to sound like such a troll for saying this, I suppose, but the art is crude, the lettering is awful, and the writing leaves me with a profound sense of "huh?" Is the visual style supposed to be some kind of post-modern comment on the comic strip form, or is it just that you're actually not making any effort to make this look good/clean/attractive? I know the bar is set lower for webcomics, but c'mon, at least put some effort into the art. If nothing else, how hard could it be to computer letter the thing or invest in an Ames guide to make it readable?
Am I missing something here? Is there some point to this that I am not getting, or does this really indicate what is acceptable in webcomics now? Somebody let me in on the gag.

Apologies are tendered if the creator is a) blind b) under 10 years old or c) a member of a lower order of primate. Otherwise, please tell me you're not actually making money off this, or I'm going to burn my pencils and go stick my drawing hand in a blender right now.

[LibertyCabbage]

o_O

I'm sorry I didn't make you happy.

[Dominic]

Since posting this, I've received a few private messages, some in support of my comments, and one that raised two points I'd like to reply to:

1) The creator of this strip is just out of high school and is trying to improve, and my original post is going to hurt his feelings. I don't think that his being just out of high school really counts for much. Most young artists I know are producing cleaner work than this at the same age or younger....If you want an extreme example of what someone that age can produce, take a look at Erez Yakin's "Silent City".
There are enough tutorials on the web, and even linked to in these forums, that tell you how to produce (and not to produce!) webcomics, from basic art to final production, that in my opinion there is no excuse for work below a certain standard. Yes, I know there's room enough on the web for everyone, but shouldn't there at least be a "You must be at least THIS tall to go on this ride" sign posted somewhere around here?
I can appreciate Jay's wanting to improve...what artist doesn't? But the only way he's going to improve is by having his feelings hurt a time or two regarding where the work is lacking. I've had my own feelings busted a time or two by some of the pros, but after I kicked the cat and got over it, I learned a few things from them that really helped me improve (again, in my own opinion...YMMV).

2) It was recommended to me...and this is what really "gets on my tits" as my tech hero Simon Travaglia would say....that I edit my post to be less flamey before the creator of the strip sees it. So let me get this straight...it's OK for any creator to come to Keenspace and post work of any caliber or lack thereof that they like, promote it in the forums and ask for opinions on its quality, but it's not OK to be respond to that work with an honest opinion and call him on the shortcomings of the strip?
Jay and other interested parties....despite the flamish nature of my post, I was not looking to be a troll, at least not in the sense that I was just looking for attention and trying to incite argument.
I stand by the points I made in my original post....I do not see any quality in this work. I do not see what is that makes people say they like it. I do not understand why it considered acceptable to bring work of this quality to the web. I do suggest that the creator spend a little time honing his craft, either from a technical or artistic standpoint, preferably both, before soliciting opinions on his work. I'm not going to retract those statements because he may not like the way they're phrased.

Jay....I don't know you from a ham sandwich. I'm sure you're a nice guy in your own right, and this was not intended as a personal attack on you. If you're ever in town, give me a ring and lunch is on me. You're free to take my opinions and make use of them, or to ignore me completely. Your choice. I'm still going to stand by my opinion of your work at this point, and call me a snob, but I would hold the same opinion of anybody else's work of the same caliber. I would hope that if my own work sucked (sucks?) relentlessly that someone would do me the same favor and send me a digital "slap upside the haid" to straighten me out. That being said, keep drawing, keep writing, keep improving, and I hope one day you can throw these words in my face.

OK...soapbox is kicked aside now. Breathe deep and count ten. Backwards. In Aramaic. Despite appearances I am not a ranting nut...all of the time. I'm going to go have a cookie and relax now. Go about your business...nothing to see here.

[LibertyCabbage]

Well you don't have to worry about hurting my feelings because I barely have any. I'm pretty much a stoic. You (and others) are right about the strip anyway. I really have neglected the visual aspect of it and I apologize. To address some key issues you brought up:

1) I've never considered my age to be an excuse to create work of poor quality. I acknowledge my inexperience in artistic ways but that's my own fault and not something I blame an uncontrollable circumstance on.

2) It's alright, the main reason I'm pitching here is to find ways I can make my comic better. I didn't even realize the neatness aspect was a problem until people mentioned it here. I've given honest criticism in the past and gotten people mad at me because of it so I know where you're at.

3) EEEeee, chill out =p

Anyway I just made this, it's not great yet but it's a step in the right direction.

http://img50.echo.cx/img50/7853/nicer7ha.jpg

Art's still pretty bad though but I'll try harder on my next one I suppose (I was going for a minimalist style in this one I guess.)

And now that I said that stuff you can all talk as much shit as you want because it doesn't bother me at all.


edit/ yeahduff/ image too wide.

[Distant screaming]

In Jay's defense (...and as you're lawyer, I'd advise you to...), if it wasn't for his comments in my original pitch post, I'd still probably have no background, no character movement, and the original 5 guys I thought of.

viewtopic.php?t=61887&highlight=

So.....yea, I think he has a good sense of what he's doing.

[Yeahduff]

Since posting this, I've received a few private messages, some in support of my comments, and one that raised two points I'd like to reply to:

1) The creator of this strip is just out of high school and is trying to improve, and my original post is going to hurt his feelings. I don't think that his being just out of high school really counts for much. Most young artists I know are producing cleaner work than this at the same age or younger....If you want an extreme example of what someone that age can produce, take a look at Erez Yakin's "Silent City".
There are enough tutorials on the web, and even linked to in these forums, that tell you how to produce (and not to produce!) webcomics, from basic art to final production, that in my opinion there is no excuse for work below a certain standard. Yes, I know there's room enough on the web for everyone, but shouldn't there at least be a "You must be at least THIS tall to go on this ride" sign posted somewhere around here?
I can appreciate Jay's wanting to improve...what artist doesn't? But the only way he's going to improve is by having his feelings hurt a time or two regarding where the work is lacking. I've had my own feelings busted a time or two by some of the pros, but after I kicked the cat and got over it, I learned a few things from them that really helped me improve (again, in my own opinion...YMMV).

2) It was recommended to me...and this is what really "gets on my tits" as my tech hero Simon Travaglia would say....that I edit my post to be less flamey before the creator of the strip sees it. So let me get this straight...it's OK for any creator to come to Keenspace and post work of any caliber or lack thereof that they like, promote it in the forums and ask for opinions on its quality, but it's not OK to be respond to that work with an honest opinion and call him on the shortcomings of the strip?
Jay and other interested parties....despite the flamish nature of my post, I was not looking to be a troll, at least not in the sense that I was just looking for attention and trying to incite argument.
I stand by the points I made in my original post....I do not see any quality in this work. I do not see what is that makes people say they like it. I do not understand why it considered acceptable to bring work of this quality to the web. I do suggest that the creator spend a little time honing his craft, either from a technical or artistic standpoint, preferably both, before soliciting opinions on his work. I'm not going to retract those statements because he may not like the way they're phrased.

Jay....I don't know you from a ham sandwich. I'm sure you're a nice guy in your own right, and this was not intended as a personal attack on you. If you're ever in town, give me a ring and lunch is on me. You're free to take my opinions and make use of them, or to ignore me completely. Your choice. I'm still going to stand by my opinion of your work at this point, and call me a snob, but I would hold the same opinion of anybody else's work of the same caliber. I would hope that if my own work sucked (sucks?) relentlessly that someone would do me the same favor and send me a digital "slap upside the haid" to straighten me out. That being said, keep drawing, keep writing, keep improving, and I hope one day you can throw these words in my face.

OK...soapbox is kicked aside now. Breathe deep and count ten. Backwards. In Aramaic. Despite appearances I am not a ranting nut...all of the time. I'm going to go have a cookie and relax now. Go about your business...nothing to see here.

Oh, come off it. I don't know what anyone has PMed you about, but I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with you having an opinion about a comic. It's your tone. Your first post was obnoxious and insulting. If you have something negative to say about a comic, say it, don't make jokes in public about lower order primates. Honest criticism doesn't give you a license to insult others, and cutting down others in such a way doesn't make you the hero who actually said it. No one expects you to say nice things about a comic you don't like, but using so many words to offer lifttle more than hurtful comments is pointless. But go ahead and stand your ground. It makes you a hero. It'll get lonely, though.

LibertyCabbage, if you're really looking for technical help, go to Tips Techniques and Tricks. You'll get better advice there.

[Jackhass]

^ Yeah, exactly...

...I wasn't overly positive about the comic either, but I didn't have to go off insulting the guy. If you're going to criticize a comic, try to keep it constructive and keep your negative comments directed at the work not the person.

[Subhuman]

Thirded. Also, you're expecting far too much from a webcomic. You say you expect a certain level of "quality" when you see something posted on the Internet, but the sad fact is that "quality" and "Internet" have long since signed the divorce papers and arranged conjugal visits for the kids. For every great webcomic out there, there are about 50 bad ones. And yet, bad ones still have their fans. Accept it and move on.

[AsterAzul]

He edited his post, though. He honored our request and was nice about it. He's entitled to his opinion, but in the end he did the right thing.

[LibertyCabbage]

So.....yea, I think he has a good sense of what he's doing.

Oo I didn't even remember that post until you linked it here =p

I dunno, I've been doing comics for a while but I still feel pretty inexperienced. I think I have a LOT of room to improve.

LibertyCabbage, if you're really looking for technical help, go to Tips Techniques and Tricks. You'll get better advice there.

Well the various posters in this thread brought to my attention the lack of neatness/cleanness and stuff which I didn't realize were issues before. Now that I recognize the problem I can take care of it.

For every great webcomic out there, there are about 50 bad ones.

Well I believe that if I try hard I can be one of the great webcomics and not one of the bad ones.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with Dominic, he was just being blunt. It's my fault for making a bad comic, not his for pointing it out. However I disagree about the writing, as I like the writing and I often laugh at my own jokes. I just need to present my jokes better.

[Dutch!]

you're expecting far too much from a webcomic.

I'm actually with him on this one...internet or not, I still expect that if someone seriously intends to publish long term on this medium then it should at least be of a decen standard.

At the same time, LC's right when he says the criticism you take you use to improve or at least know where you audience is. I've tried to read some of his stuff a few times to see what I've been missing because it seems there are enough people who enjoy it. It hasn't worked for me. I honestly don't find them really funny and I often don't see a reason for the joke in the first place. As I said though, he's right about that. Not everyone's gonna like what you do so you take the good with the bad. I've had people openly tell me they wouldn't even read my stuff because it tries to make school sound positive. If they bothered to read it, they'd realise that school is just the setting, not the theme. At least Dom gave it a shot, eh?

Anyway...I'm gonna wind this up and go to the footy...back later.

The panel borders are much more worthy or you now, LC, but it still looks like you've just scribbled out an idea to use later.

[Dominic]

Also, you're expecting far too much from a webcomic.

And there, I think, is the gist of my argument. Let me tell you a brief story (I like stories...):
It was not my idea to bring my work to Keenspace; it was recommended to me by an established webcartoonist friend of mine. Having failed to get my books published by any of the major publishers I went to, and having Previews accept my self-publishing solicitations only if I would change or drop my first two stories, he suggested to me that my work was probably good enough to draw a readership through Keenspace.
I recall when I first applied for a Keenspace account that I waited a couple of days for a response, and was actually quite nervous about whether or not the work would be good enough to be accepted. So, it was a small triumph for me when I was given the server space to post my work online (I was already running a site at another server, but that didn't count, since it was one of those free servers that will give space to anyone).
This led me to think that there was some measure of quality expected from people publishing their work on Keenspace as well as Keenspot. A lot of the work I've looked at since has supported that idea...while I haven't liked every strip I've read, I was able to recognize the quality of a lot of them.
So, to be honest, it kind of gets to me to see the bar set so low for work that gets accepted and promoted, when I have worked so hard to be sure that my own art is of the best quality that I can make it before I even try to bring it to the readers. True, my updates have not been as regular as many, and I still have doubts about whether my work could succeed in a professional forum, but I still work to make every story published as good as I can possibly make it.
Therefore, I expect that any person going through the same process will make the same amount of effort, each to his or her own level of ability. So, to see work that, to me, is blatantly below even the lowered standards of webcomics, and which could be improved even by a few simple technical processes, is offensive to my continued efforts. I suppose I could shrug it off and say that the bad artists will weed themselves out through their own lack of effort or loss of readership, but I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that any web cartoonist should be met with at least some level of expectation by both readers and peers. Hence my posted comments. I can't get over it...this is where I live.
As for my manner of expression...well, that's just me. I'm a writer...I have to be able to communicate clearly, and sometimes that's best achieved with a blunt object.

[LibertyCabbage]

I'll draw something now, I've had this joke planned for a few days and it's another telephone joke, but this time I'll try my best to make it look good.

[RemusShepherd]

you're expecting far too much from a webcomic.

I'm actually with him on this one...internet or not, I still expect that if someone seriously intends to publish long term on this medium then it should at least be of a decen standard.

I'm going to weigh in on the other side. It's a big internet -- we have room both for those who do webcomics as an artform and for those who have scribbles in their brain that they need to get onto paper to stay sane. We have room for trash, and if people want to create trash let them.

I am *not* calling LC's comic 'trash', by the way. Just pointing out that the web is big enough for every level of quality.

LC, if you love doing comics, then do them for yourself and for the fans that you get. That's the absolute most important thing.

That being said, if you ask for critique then be ready for blunt appraisals if your work doesn't measure up well to other similar works. That's just the way it is -- when you ask the masses for approval, you're measured against the masses. Just don't let it stop you from doing what you love.

[LibertyCabbage]

Improvement!

http://img277.echo.cx/img277/7937/hostages1oe.jpg

Part of my problem is that I've always been a bad artist but I never tried to improve. But now I'm trying to improve. I like doing this simple gag-strip but I'll probably end up doing something much more serious when I'm good enough at drawing to do that. Or maybe I'll do goofy stuff, I dunno. I don't really care, I'm just trying to improve right now.

[Mirosui Onitsaki]

That's awsome! It's drawn better. Also, I like the pupils in Skippy's eyes. It's different.