Dumb artist needs some help

Asarea · Post by **Asarea** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:10 am

Well .. I think you know that. You're drawing a comic, putting lots of time in this great piece of artwork and you have a bunch of readers liking it. But ... (there's always a 'but'!) ... you look at the success of other comics and ask yourself: Why not my comic, too? What am I doing wrong? Didn't I put enough effort in advertising?

I tried the normal way to get a bit more known - the webcomic list, onlinecomics.com and so on ... but I think that's not enough after all, I just wanna hit the 200-visits-a-day mark and have some more readers. *smiles* My problem is my bad english - I'm really trying to get all the dumb lingial problems off my written texts, but I'm not that good at all with writing longer texts as comixpedia articles or something like that. All my texts just read themselves as written from a school kid and hey, I'm 25, you know ... ^^

Do you have any hints for me? strategys? help?

I really wanna do some more for my comic.

BOMC · Post by **BOMC** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:32 am

I've found the best way to get a lot of readers is to just withstand the test of time; the longer you keep your comic updating, the more readers you will get (providing your comic is of some quality).

so basically... just keep doing what you're doing

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:57 am

*points to footer*

For you... Bug the fanclubs! Heck, get the comic in their newsletters! You're comic is Star Wars and there's a whole audience out there for you that only has a small overlap with the webcomic demographic. The Star Wars fan film sites may even feature you. Those movies tend to be very popular as there are some very impressive ones in there and your comic is also a fan work. It's gotta be worth a try.

- Joel Fagin

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:25 am

Well, I certainly owe you for the art you did for me...
If you ever need anything proofed come to me. My vocabulary is well endowed and I am very apt at writing in a way similar to how real people speak ("Outta". "wanna", "gimme", "shouldn't've", et cetera)

As for advertising I can't help you other than to say to plug on messageboards where you think people would be interested in it (Like, for example, Star Bored at a sci-fi board). I never really had to advertise too much because White Hydra became so popular so quickly. Fans would link me, and people would visit the links and link me, and it still goes on despite not having updated in two monthes.

Taiwanimation · Post by **Taiwanimation** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:09 am

If the writing is a problem, just write less, and show more in the pictures.

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:18 am

FAUB reached a plateau early on. For the first year it grew fairly rapidly but after that, readership leveled off and nothing I could do made any difference at all. I've actually lost page views in the last three months (15% since October as a matter of fact). There are several reasons for this. The ratio of page views to visits has gone down. People are reading fewer pages at a time when they visit my site which means more of the people who visit have already read the archives. I'm not picking up new readers as often anymore. I have changed drawing styles several times and update schedules twice. My story is painfully slow at times and there's little action to keep the ADD kids' attention.

Basically I have a core of fans who have been around since the beginning. New people are intimidated because I have over 150 pages up and there's just so much to read. New readers will need to invest a lot of time and effort to catch up. I can't really help that since my job is to keep updating, continue to expand the storyline and work toward its inevitable conclusion.

Most of that is just statistics and excuses. I really don't have a clue what would make people more interested in my comic. I've tried advertising around. I left fliers at Archon. That netted me a whole next to nothing. I'm on comic lists that I didn't add myself to (thank you whoever has added me for me 8) ). I don't get around to enough forums (Megatokyo and Penny Arcade might help a bit but there's a point when you have to decide if you really want that audience) mainly because I don't have the time anymore or maybe it's just a preceived lack of time. I don't know anymore.

The truth is, you can't change the minds of people. If you click and your comic touches something that makes sense to them, then you have a reader for life. These people may even complain when you miss updates. It's really hard when you have a whole 4 seconds to catch the attention of potential readers. Many comics take just longer than that to read. There is no digestion involved, you just get it and move on. In a story based comic, you don't have the luxury of retelling the entire story on each page. The character are often deeper and more complex than the paper cutout characters in many gag comics. (Slick and Monique from Sinfest for example. These are characters made to just get. There is no complexity involved in their personalities.)

It would be nice to be a Digital War or a Loxie and Zoot but for our comics, jumping up two pages in the guide overnight just doesn't happen. The best we can do is to get the word out that our comics exist in as many places as possible and slowly accumulate the readers.

Good luck.

Xmung · Post by **Xmung** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:23 am

yeh - i agree with above. i think night and day is a great comic but it can lose something in the translation. it's early days yet, and your story is just getting out of the starting block - you know where it's going (i'm presuming you do, anyway) but some new readers might arrive and find a lot of sometimes hard to wade thru dialogue and not see the potential greatness within. as above, i'd suggest less text more art (cos that's the knock-out stuff) and go drop in on a few star wars forums...
of course, ghastly might suggest a wild ride!
chin up gloria - it's a great comic, and you ain't dumb at all!

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:43 am

BOMC wrote:I've found the best way to get a lot of readers is to just withstand the test of time; the longer you keep your comic updating, the more readers you will get (providing your comic is of some quality).

so basically... just keep doing what you're doing

If only it was true...

mcDuffies is a comic with some of most inconsistant popularity. 2002 was a good year with constant readership growth, modest but fair. In 2003 I stopped caring about promotion and that year my readership staled and even went down. At the end of 2003 that stabilized as people from these forums started severely linking me. Meanwhile, situation changed a lot, and as much as in 2001 there was a lot of webcomics, it was nothing compared to the boom in 2003. Lots of them run me over.

Asarea, I feel exactly the same way. I know mcDuffies is sloppy at moments, but it's far from incopetently made, and at the thought that it's currently on 5th page of the guide... well, kinda puts me down. If I knew how to make a comic popular, I'd be first to tell, but obviously, I don't.

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:54 am

faub wrote:I really don't have a clue what would make people more interested in my comic.

Well... I've been meaning to say this for some time, but as much as I like FAUB, the problem I've been finding with it is currently it lacks closure. Which can be exasperating if you don't have a lot of patience to wait for the ending.

FAUB started off intriguing. The problem was we went through like you said 150 pages, and lots of good stuff has been happening but what's basically happened is that we get more questions raised then answers.

So basically a lot of stuff's happened, but not a lot's happened.

The bad thing about this is because it's slow, it takes a back seat on people's minds, and they don't make as much effort to link and push the comic. Or at least that's what I think.

Hope that helps.

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:53 pm

Oh no, cheer up Gloria! Your comic is beautiful, and I don't think the writing is a problem at all (but then again, I'm not the one to speak about this). Anyways, the thing you can do is be more present on the webcomic communities. That way you can get the word of your comic out.

I'll try and plug Night & Day on my site. I already have you on my links list, but seeing as how ever since I stopped updating my stats are oh-so-high, I'll probably do better by pushing my readers to comics that actually update.

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:59 pm

Joel Fagin wrote:*points to footer*

Yeah, I was just going to talk about that. It's an awesome tutorial, Joel (and I'm not saying just because I figure in it). I'm sure Xerexes would love to have this written exclusively for Comixpedia back in the days of the Newblood issue.

Why not settle for one of the Comixpedia contributors? I think you'd do fine.

Alschroeder · Post by **Alschroeder** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:08 pm

What he said.
FAUB is great, but I have NO answers so far. I don't know where the girl with wings came from, who the two odd "men" (obviously elves or some other mythical creature) are and from what I understand from the interview, I won't know for months and months---that this will be continued in the present-day.
Not everybody can do a LORD OF THE RINGS. I tend to do long storylines, but currently I'm on my ELEVENTH storyline in under three years. (My third year will start in March or April, I forget.) Some of the storylines run as little as forty pages, others stretch it out to ninety. There are beginnings, build-ups, climaxes and resolutions. It usually takes months to get to the resolution, but we GET there. And we go on.
It's like sex. Nothing is as frustrating as a prolonged titillation without a climax.
Can you maintain a mystery over several storylines? Surely. GODS OF AR-KELEEN has a clearly defined central "mystery" but has clearly defined chapters with individual resolutions. We BOTH more or less adapt the comic book model of having individual stories within a greater idea.
As for NIGHT AND DAY...it's a wonderful comic, and like FAUB it has beautiful artwork. But it suffers from two deficiencies in my mind. The writing could be better (boy, if I could write your comic and you could draw mine, we'd have two killer comics) and it's a fanfic.
I don't want to insult. It's just the truth. It's placed in the STAR WARS universe. And...? If you publish it ANYWHERE else, George Lucas can forbid its publication or has to get a financial slice on it. That may be a strength---maybe you get a lot of STAR WARS fans reading it because of it....but it doesn't sound like it.
Look, I didn't grow up on STAR WARS. When I first saw it, I was impressed by the special effects, but the storyline was a Heinlein juvenile at best. I don't see it through the eyes of a seven-year-old like most of you. By placing it in the STAR WARS universe, you are limiting yourself, both in your creative ability, and what you can do with it. I KNOW Isahn isn't going to kill the Emperor, for instance, because that would screw up George Lucas' character. If you had a similar empire, but with its own names and characters, an element of suspense would creep back in.
Having said that, DON'T JUNK NIGHT AND DAY!! All you have to do is segway into a empire that's all your own. You might offer, to get more hits, to draw for a good writer---T. Campbell works with other artists, for instance...and drawing a short story for FANS would draw more people to YOUR site.
I know my own site has faults too (mainly the art, although I'm working to improve it) so you needn't point that out. But you ASKED.---Al

Alschroeder · Post by **Alschroeder** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:18 pm

Oh, just like it helps when drawing someone to have a real person (even if it's a movie star) in mind, it helps to have a real person imagined as talking, also. Dialogue flows smoother.
Read your dialogue aloud. That helps a LOT.---Al

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:25 pm

Just thinking aloud...

One problem with comics is the time they take. Even at one comic a day, the progress is slower and the story longer than an average novel. Bereft of progress and resolution, the story can become tiresome and unsatisfying. I haven't read FAUB (although I keep intending to) but it sounds like it might be a problem with it.

So, really, the optimal comic for retaining interest over a long period should be something like an American TV series. Smaller stories woven through a larger. Each small story (or episode) has its own conflicts and resolution which satisfy the reader and keep the pace moving while the greater story simmers slowly in the background.

Of course, pretty much everything else about an American TV series should be avoided.*

Rpin: Thanks! I'll... think about Comixpedia tomorrow. I didn't really know you could "apply", in fact, but I'll give it a look tomorrow.

- Joel Fagin

* I just started watching Stargate:Atlantis and, surprise, surprise! They set up the status quo in one episode flat. Why couldn't Robert Patrick have died in the fifth episode? Wow! That'd be different, wouldn't it? (Sarcasm)

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:29 pm

Phalanx wrote:
faub wrote:I really don't have a clue what would make people more interested in my comic.
Well... I've been meaning to say this for some time, but as much as I like FAUB, the problem I've been finding with it is currently it lacks closure. Which can be exasperating if you don't have a lot of patience to wait for the ending.

FAUB started off intriguing. The problem was we went through like you said 150 pages, and lots of good stuff has been happening but what's basically happened is that we get more questions raised then answers.

I can promise that all questions in Little White Knight will be answered in first 180 pages.

One problem with comics is the time they take. Even at one comic a day, the progress is slower and the story longer than an average novel. Bereft of progress and resolution, the story can become tiresome and unsatisfying. I haven't read FAUB (although I keep intending to) but it sounds like it might be a problem with it.

So, really, the optimal comic for retaining interest over a long period should be something like an American TV series. Smaller stories woven through a larger. Each small story (or episode) has its own conflicts and resolution which satisfy the reader and keep the pace moving while the greater story simmers slowly in the background.

...like mine.
Actually, I was thinking the same thought, that's why I conciped it that way. Of course, I stole the concept from other webcomics, but...
With webcomics, problem is keeping readers who keep it day by day. My theory is that they'll hardly stick around for a storyline that goes on for more than two months. You can see how smoothly Sluggy Freelance handles it: six daily strips with jokes or maybe a bit of exposure, since they are limited in size. Then, sunday update that is at least four times longer, is used to advance the story the most. Abrams managed to keep things fairly interesting with this kind of pacing for several years.
The biggest pacing problem I see is, people allow their scenes, or even unique conversations, to span over five, even ten pages. Those are mostly filled with idle, unimportant conversation, and it all makes a comic in whole, convoluting pretty slow. If one scene lasts ten pages, you can imagine that there will be one or two hundred of pages before they really sink into story. Most of webcomics actually stop updating before this.
I am classically "educated" when it comes to comics, my pacing is very fast compared to webcomic average. I said that I plan to leave no secrets in LWK whithin 180 pages but really, as it is a comic nased around the mistery, revealing all secrets means the end of the comic, or at least the end of one period of the comic. I'm hoping, in case of LWK, the second one. So, a lot of things must happen till then.

TheLoserHero · Post by **TheLoserHero** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:52 pm

I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said, Asarea, but I have faith in you.

I mean, hell, you have the skill and the talent. It's only a matter of time.

Vorticus · Post by **Vorticus** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:23 pm

Have you tried ticking off a very popular webcomic? I've heard that getting a cease and desist from one of them will do wonders for your popularity.

Vorticus · Post by **Vorticus** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:27 pm

Yeah I know, double post.

I just finished reading your archive Asarea and I've got a few things to say.
Also keep in mind this is coming from someone who has seen all the movies and read 90% of the extend universe books and comics.
If you're going to market to the Star Wars community you have bigger problems than less than perfect English. I would go with alschroeder's advice and make your own universe. The story you want to tell and the way you want to tell it really don't mesh with the Star Wars Universe.
You're getting into the nitty gritty of personal relationships and bitter pasts, both things that Star Wars doesn't usually cover. Star Wars is fundamentally about action, and your comic is a desert when it comes to action.
If this wasn't the Star Wars universe it would be okay to spend as much time as you have inside people's heads listening to what they're thinking. However you have set your comic in the Star Wars universe and it was painful for me to read it because of all the internal monologues. Your bounty hunters are going after a pirate, but more time has been devoted to the characters past than to their plan to eliminate the pirate.
I think you need to ask yourself this. Is the plot there to further your character development or is your character development there to further the plot? Right now it seems like the first is true, but for a Star Wars story it should be the second.
I think you are an excellent artist and your writing is passable, however your style really isn't suitable for the Star Wars universe.

Asarea · Post by **Asarea** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:17 am

Finally I had the time to read this thread and all your great answers ...and to think it over and over. The comic is a thing that burns my mind since weeks now, since the time I had the trouble with my computer and couldn't update. I had the time to think about the storyline and found much things especially Vorticus named in his answer.

Yeah, it is a desert of action - but this will change soon. My problem is the huge RPG storyline that liey behind every scene and every character. As I played the scenario with my co-autor Alexander in early 2003, it was a RPG only, if we wanted to have a talk with the characters we played, they talked, if we wanted to have action, they had action. Unfortulately Alex and me love dialogues and psychology, and this characterizes the whole plot. I had to add some things (the whole story with Venlat is added afterwards) and to get the things more fluent. If you stay with the story the next time you'll seethe action coming, this is a promise. Your words made me more sure to get it started

I'm also working on the writing - some readers correct my english and I try to add their suggestions as soon as possible to get chapter two in 'good' english, but thats not the point at all. I could name several german gaming, RPG and Star Wars communities to push my comic there, but most of those guys are too lazy to read english, and as for english communities I don't know enough of them to get my feet into the doors. If you have any good spot to announce a comic there it yould be very great if you could give me the link or a hint - I don't have much time this weeks to do a all-night-search for *good* comunities.

The STAR WARS problem. I love Star Wars. The story originally was located in Star Wars Universe, and I am really bad in designing ships, armor, weapons and all this technical stuff. Al, this is my great lack - I just hate to design such stuff myself. I don't plan to make money from Night & Day, this was never planned 'cause I know Lucas' bitching about his copyrights. I draw this comic to tell the story of two cool characters and improve my art and writing ...well, I try o do this. Working for money I would try to reach another genre - real-fantasy with dark ages weapons and fights, with more jokes, more naked women and so on. This is the thing that attracts readers most. Make funny stories and half-naked heroines *grin*

STAR WARS is more than those films, if you want to see it. It's just more than only action, Jedis and aliens ...and this side of the mega-hype I wanted to show. The normal life of some not that important persons in a huge galaxy. I think I will stay with SW just because of the ships and technics and so on, but with more art, more action ...
It's the roleplayer's view, I know. I just love roleplaying too much *grin* the internal dialogues Vorticus mentioned were made to give a fundamental point of view from every character - it will be less when the action starts (nobody thinks that much about a bitter past while fighting *g*).

Gah. Long text for me. Well, I'm trying to keep all the things in mind - and thank you to all who took the time to read and answer. It was very important to me ...

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:08 pm

You call that long text?
Well, I used to write longer texts when I was ten!
Okie used to write longer texts when he was five!