If you could rename Keenspace, what would you rename it as?

William G · Post by **William G** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:10 am

I bet smoke is coming out of Ghastly's pipe like a factory smokestack right now.

Taiwanimation · Post by **Taiwanimation** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:15 am

Hamilton is gonna be giving LA a run for the money in the smog race.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:39 am

Taiwanimation wrote:Hamilton is gonna be giving LA a run for the money in the smog race.

Oh, if you'd ever been to Hamilton you'd know that we already do and have since long before I moved here.

Hamilton is the armpit of Ontario. It is a tough, gruff, dark and gritty little city. It is the ignored and abused underdog living in the shadow cast by Toronto's glory.

Actually... Hamilton is kinda like Keenspace.

Toxic · Post by **Toxic** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:42 am

Oh great... I don't check this thread for a few days and a full out Keen civil war is breaking out.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:46 am

No, no civil war. Just Uncle Ghastly raising the rabbels again and getting them to rattle their chains.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:25 pm

Ghastly wrote:
mcDuffies wrote:The main reason why I think this is the fastness and energy with which Ghastly uses literally every oportunity that comes up in conversation, to bring bad sides of spot.
Look, I don't bring up these threads. But if the thread comes up then I'll use it to speak my mind. I don't expect anyone to take my side or take anything I say for granted but by golly I will speak my mind.

I didn't say you were supposed to, speak up as much as you think is needed. My message was directed to other people. I mean, we don't want to give someone reasons for calling us "Ghastly's little troopers" again.

I assume by this point Ghastly And Pals has already been mentioned?

But then if he leaves for Webcomic Nation?

I am confused here. I haven't been around much, and I had no idea there was so much politics, egos and angst in webcomicking. Anyway what confuses me is that I trust you 100% to say things that you know exactly as they are, but I find it difficult to believe that a whole bunch of people would spend time badmouthing 'space webcomics? Cui bono?

Sadly, I can confirm that too. Imagine a guy who never could break through in printed comics because of lack of talent and skills and, well I guess because of lazyness - now, imagine him discovering a fertile webcomic ground back in 98 or 99 when webcomics were still new. Now, this guy gets invited to spot, maybe for personal preferences but mostly because Spot had an ambition to gather all or at least most of webcomics (of course, stopped by the fact that the most succesfull ones did't have a reason to go to spot) so a few of people that more or less aply to this description did find a place there. And simply, Space is a target for their complexes, they push up their self-esteem by reminding themselves and the world that they are on spot, while other "supposedly" better comics are on Space. Now, imagine what a boost for someone's ego might be the idea that his comic is still better than those on top pages of Space - and he finds the confirmation for this b.s. in fact that he is on spot, while those are on space.
But really, it's just a few of them. A majority is good people on Spot, starting from Crosby and Gav who are ok in my bood, since I've seen them doing a lot of good stuff. So those few are giving them bad name. I don't wanna call names, nor make allusions, don't want someone to have a reason to say that he was called-out.
But yeah, in answer to your question, yes, there are people who don't have a better thing to do than badmouthing keenspace.

I even made it a point to make sure that people realized that even though Josh Lesnick's comments in that particular thread were "douchebaggish" that Josh is by no means one of Spot's "douchebags".

Too late.

No, no civil war. Just Uncle Ghastly raising the rabbels again and getting them to rattle their chains

Just don't let uncle Ghastly anywhere near gran'ma Pin.

Post by **Kisai** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:46 pm

RPin wrote: - Generating revenue to Spacers: Sometime ago I sent Crosby an e-mail (to which I got no reply as of yet, maybe due to the fact that my ISP blacklisted the Keenspot IP) asking him what he would think about Keenspacers going out and selling ad space in the likes of what Ghastly does, as long as it doesn't affect the main ad which goes to Keen. Like the Google vertical ads, or just selling space to peer webcomickers. Since some of us are doing it already (I'm not naming names for the sake of not getting them into trouble), I thought this could be a clean way of generating a little bit of revenue for yourself while still honouring the contract you signed up with Keen. If anyone feels like mailing this to Crosby again they are much welcome.

According to advertisement agreements (read the fine print) you can:
1. Put more than one advertisement on a page (just look at yahoo.com) as long as the advertisements are not stacked (can not be beside each other.) Incidently this INCLUDES other comic sites.
2. Can not mix adult and non-adult advertisements. Much like reasons Paypal don't allow it, if someone pays for any kind of adult hosting, adult advertisement, or simply has adult content, it can not be mixed with the non-adult ads. You have to be of legal age in the country you are in to host, create, advertise or distribute adult content. AKA, don't get keenspace in trouble by putting porn advertisements or casino advertisements on your page.
3. You can not put more than one advertisement from the same advertisor on the same page, so therefor you can not put googleads, adsense, burstnet, and anything currently being advertised as a separate advertisement.

Which is why Ghastly's ads got pulled, as one of the advertisors got wind of violating #2.

On to the discussion of changing the name.

You do know the final change depends on me right? Neither Gav or Nate did any programming on the DB backend. Though it's simple enough. UPDATE keen_comics set comic_domain='-newdomain- where comic_domain='keenspace.com'
and then do the same for the domain table, however to prevent breaking people going to keenspace.com from getting hostname not found errors it would actually be this easy:
INSERT INTO keen_domains set domain_zone='-newdomain-',comic_id='$comic_id';

Something a little more elaborate as there are a few more columns in that table, it would have to be a script that does the second stage.

Then the appropriate changes to the apache configuration, simply changing the keenspace.com to -newdomain- and then adding ServerAlias keenspace.com would solve that.

Not hard at all. Then run an autokeen full rebuiild of everyones site, and then all the links would change. This is WHY you should not hardlink your domain in your links. (flying in face of the suggestion posted on the help forums that putting the full domain is the best way, it isn't. /images/image.jpg is the correct way)

Anyways. While I'm not opposed to changing the name, I'm not seeing a reason to change it.

Would it be oh-so-more helpful if keenspace had a "bar" like keenspot does? Or maybe make it replace community dropdowns, so whatever keywords you picked, the comic becomes part of? Unfortunately that would resuilt in adding 75KB to everyones page, which is why the original keenspace dropdown was disabled. Javascript maybe...

See it took almost a year to get the a new newsbox, and I wrote it in two days. Give me enough time, I'll make it happen.

I think my only real gripe with keenspace, isn't with keenspace, but rather who holds the keys. It took almost TWO years to get access to the forum server, it took damn well forever to get domains to update, and I still do not have access to that server.

So basicly put, I ask for access to things so I can fix/change it without having to email nate/gav, because quite honestly, they ignore their email. This is not how you run a service, and if this was a business (and keenspace users were customers) then people would refuse to do business with a company that doesn't have any customer support.

Gav doesn't want anything to do with running keenspace, check the comixpedia article if you don't believe me. Nate... I want to put "wanted posters" up on keenspace "Have you seen this guy? Please tell him to read his email" . Only when something serious happens do I ever get a response, and it usually takes "I've got a bomb" like statements like Kelly did last time to get a response.

Do you know why Keenspace was moved over to Butch so hastily? Because I discovered the server was having disk errors, and much like the Schlock crash, you only have a limited window of opportunity to recover the data before it crashes hard.

Anyways.

There have been times where I was like... "ugh, this would be so much easier to deal with if I didn't have to go through nate to get anything having to do with the keenspace.com domain done"

And you know what, if WE, as a community picked a new domain name, independant of what Keenspot thinks, there is nothing stopping you from using it. So take doombees.com for example, say 40 people want to use that as their domain name... so be it, it's not that hard to setup, so you'd have comica.doombees.com and comicb.doombees.com and even forums.doombees.com (which would re-resolve back to forums.keenspace.com, but anways.) This however breaks up the "community" but if you want to form small "keenspot-like" groups of 50 comics this way, there is nothing stopping you. Everything would continue to run as normal. I could even put in the option of "choose a domain" in the siteadmin.

In fact right now, if someone wanted to be hosted by ghastly 's domain name, it could be done, so someone wanting to be tentacle.ghastlycomics.com could do that.

You are not restricted to just www for a subdomain. Just you have to indicate which domain the www and non-www resolves to.

Oh, you can even go one further. The auto-resolve mechanism means that even if you change the domain, people will automatically go to the domain you want it to goto... even if the site is no longer on keenspace. Goto sexylosers.keenspace.com , it goes to sexylosers.com which is not on keenspace. The system does this because...

Yes, people are stupid and don't update their bookmarks.

And in that vien, people are also stupid and can't tell keenspace from keenspot... but you know what, to me there isn't a significant difference. If had access to the keenspot.com traffic logs I'm sure that comics on Keenspot are not that much more popular than ones on Keenspace. In fact I had proof of this, as one time Gav had something hotlinked off nukees.com to a subdomain on keenspace, and that is what caused the keenspace site to rank higher than a lot of other "popular" keenspace sites at the time, but it wasn't #1. Every time someone loaded a page off nukees.com it registered a hit on keenspace.

Now you know why I oppose hotlinking. It inflates your stats.

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:01 pm

Here's what Keenspace and Keenspot looks like when compared to each other. Of course everybody knows Alexa's stats are not always to be trusted, but I don't think the real bandwidth figures for Spot and Space are something the fab four is going to share with us (or anyone else) (EDIT: That, and the fact that all Spot comics use their own domain names, unlike the ones hosted at Keenspace), so this is the best we got to speculate upon.

Anyways... Very enlightening post, Kisai. And good timing too, since we're experiencing a crash atm.

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:16 pm

More important: If Gav doesn't want to work for Space anymore (I read that interview back then as well), and if the volunteers/wranglers are doing a better job at holding things together than the Fab Four, what's keeping Crosby from turning Keenspace into a non-profit organization like he hinted months ago?

Post by **Kisai** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:20 pm

RPin wrote:Here's what Keenspace and Keenspot looks like when compared to each other. Of course everybody knows Alexa's stats are not always to be trusted, but I don't think the real bandwidth figures for Spot and Space are something the fab four is going to share with us (or anyone else) (EDIT: That, and the fact that all Spot comics use their own domain names, unlike the ones hosted at Keenspace), so this is the best we got to speculate upon.

Anyways... Very enlightening post, Kisai. And good timing too, since we're experiencing a crash atm.

Try This one

Now what you have to realize is that at least two of the more popular keenspace comics and most of the keenspot comics have their own domains.

And Alexa's own stats indicate a downward trend, as with XPSP2 less and less people are going to keep spyware on their systems, or the spyware will be blocked from phoning home.

hehe, just for giggles:
Non-comics:
http://www.google.com -> 4
(these next three are "most hotlinked from")
http://www.neopets.com -> 98
http://www.livejournal.com ->634
http://www.go-gaia.com -> 149183

Comic sites:
http://www.penny-arcade.com ->4284
http://www.keenspace.com ->12396
http://www.megatokyo.com ->27021
http://www.keenspot.com -> 29889
http://www.rpgworldcomic -> 79633
http://www.gpf-comics.com ->81387
http://www.elgoonishshive.com -> 97858
http://www.countyoursheep.com ->250683
http://www.ghastlycomic.com ->366223
http://www.nukees.com -> 429950
http://www.strangecandy.net ->995191

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:29 pm

Kisai wrote: I think my only real gripe with keenspace, isn't with keenspace, but rather who holds the keys. It took almost TWO years to get access to the forum server, it took damn well forever to get domains to update, and I still do not have access to that server.

So basicly put, I ask for access to things so I can fix/change it without having to email nate/gav, because quite honestly, they ignore their email. This is not how you run a service, and if this was a business (and keenspace users were customers) then people would refuse to do business with a company that doesn't have any customer support.

Gav doesn't want anything to do with running keenspace, check the comixpedia article if you don't believe me. Nate... I want to put "wanted posters" up on keenspace "Have you seen this guy? Please tell him to read his email" . Only when something serious happens do I ever get a response, and it usually takes "I've got a bomb" like statements like Kelly did last time to get a response.

Oh yes indeed, another one of my gripes is that Kisai is not being given the power and authority to run the technical aspects of Space the way it needs to be run. No one in the Keen exec wants the responsibility and burdon of actually having to make Space work yet they're reluctant to hand over that responsibility and burdon to someone who, in my opinon, has more than proven herself not only capable of performing the task but worthy of earning the trust to do so.

Kisai is doing many wonderful things for all of us here on Keen and she's doing them with both hands tied behind her back.

Keen wants the revinue and promotional might of Space functioning for them but they're not interested in actually doing anything above the bare minimum to keep it running.

Kisai seriously needs to be given complete access to the tools she needs to not only keep Space running but to improve the way Space runs.

In fact right now, if someone wanted to be hosted by ghastly 's domain name, it could be done, so someone wanting to be tentacle.ghastlycomics.com could do that.

Oooh! I could really have my own army of minions then... eeeeeeeexcellent.

/burns

Although I agree that carving up space would probably weaken us on whole as a community of diverse individuals.

Bekka · Post by **Bekka** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:42 pm

OK, I stand corrected. I thought that there was a problem with just a few whiny asses, I didn't know there were so many problems :/

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:43 pm

Kisai wrote: According to advertisement agreements (read the fine print) you can:
1. Put more than one advertisement on a page (just look at yahoo.com) as long as the advertisements are not stacked (can not be beside each other.) Incidently this INCLUDES other comic sites....etc...

All that makes me very depressive... I think that's much more serious problem than any other mentioned in this thread. The fact that some spotters look down on spacers is really a small thing compared to the fact that they don't give you freedom to do the job of maintaining while they don't do it themselves either.

I suddenly have an urge to draw you another fanart.

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:47 pm

You have an irritating habit of latching on to the least significant parts of my posts, Ghast.

- Joel Fagin

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:25 pm

Ghastly wrote:Oh yes indeed, another one of my gripes is that Kisai is not being given the power and authority to run the technical aspects of Space the way it needs to be run. No one in the Keen exec wants the responsibility and burdon of actually having to make Space work yet they're reluctant to hand over that responsibility and burdon to someone who, in my opinon, has more than proven herself not only capable of performing the task but worthy of earning the trust to do so.

Kisai is doing many wonderful things for all of us here on Keen and she's doing them with both hands tied behind her back.

Keen wants the revinue and promotional might of Space functioning for them but they're not interested in actually doing anything above the bare minimum to keep it running.

Kisai seriously needs to be given complete access to the tools she needs to not only keep Space running but to improve the way Space runs.

Yeah, I seriously don't see the need of turning Keenspace into a non-profit organization like Crosby said he would. It could actually be just a lot more profitable than it is if Kisai could have full access to the tools she need. I lost count of how many times she asked for access to the forum server so she can tweak things out. There's something that needs to be done about gavsad and merv too, they are giving bad code messages and slowing down keenspace as a whole. If she could just take care of those things...

If Kisai and the rest of our wrangles were given the chance to take care of Keen more independently of the higher ups's decisions, I strongly believe Space would give Spot a real run for its money. It's sad to see that we might be losing Kisai in the near future. If WCN turns out profitable, Manley already said first thing he'd do is hire Kisai full-time to work for him.

You see, that's why threads like these are needed. I know you people are getting tired at Ghastly taunting at Keen everytime, but it's bitching like this that gets us anywhere. It was a thread like this that got EOI and CYS spotted, remember?

Justinpie · Post by **Justinpie** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:01 pm

Here are some I thought of (and checked @ whois.net for availability):

Comiquest.com

Comiquarium.com

Comixnmatch.com

Comicopia.org (.Com and .Net are taken)

Panelpushers.com

Sceneplace.com (rhymes!)

Sceneplot.com (rhymes with Keenspot)

Comicease.com

Multicomics.com

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:14 pm

RPin wrote:There's something that needs to be done about gavsad and merv too, they are giving bad code messages and slowing down keenspace as a whole. If she could just take care of those things...

Gavzad and Merv definetly need to be seriously retooled. That is the last major technical hurdle as far as the readers are concerned that makes Keenspace a major bitch to visit. I have gotten so much e-mail since running my own ad system and no longer having my ads fed to me by Gavzad and Merv from readers who are really impressed with how much faster my website loads and were wondering why other Keenspace sites and my forum take so long to load and are so slow.

If I recall correctly Kisai knows exactly what's wrong with it, knows how to fix it, but is being denied access to the tools she needs to do anything about it. Very frustrating for those on keenspace (or so I would imagine, my site no longer has to worry about it thanks to Jesus having imaginary sex) especially in light of all the other technical advances that have been made this year to make Keenspace a much stronger system.

It puzzles me beyond belief that why if nobody in Keen wants the responsibility of running space they don't give that responsibility to someone who has not only proven herself capable, but worthy of that responsibility. It's not like the execs would lose control over Space. Kisai would still report to them regularily and I'm sure get approval before doing anything really really drastic. Keen really needs to untie the poor girl's hands.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:43 pm

RPin wrote: Yeah, I seriously don't see the need of turning Keenspace into a non-profit organization like Crosby said he would. It could actually be just a lot more profitable than it is if Kisai could have full access to the tools she need. I lost count of how many times she asked for access to the forum server so she can tweak things out. There's something that needs to be done about gavsad and merv too, they are giving bad code messages and slowing down keenspace as a whole. If she could just take care of those things...

If Kisai and the rest of our wrangles were given the chance to take care of Keen more independently of the higher ups's decisions, I strongly believe Space would give Spot a real run for its money. It's sad to see that we might be losing Kisai in the near future. If WCN turns out profitable, Manley already said first thing he'd do is hire Kisai full-time to work for him.

You see, that's why threads like these are needed. I know you people are getting tired at Ghastly taunting at Keen everytime, but it's bitching like this that gets us anywhere. It was a thread like this that got EOI and CYS spotted, remember?

I agree on all of it.
Yep, although I don't think there is a need for "Hey, spot this!", "Hey, spot that!", "Hey, I desperately want to be spotted but I don't want to say it directly so I'll keep starting threads about this hoping that someone will finally notice me" threads, there are still a lot of problems that have to be solved and this is one way to do it.

There's one thing that I forgot to mention all during the thread. Actually, I think the most of spot vs space problems, and generally spot problems, are caused by the clause "once spotter, always spotter". It prompts lack of trying once the person is spotter, and lord knows that some of them stopped trying long ago. Thus their improvement stopped, their stories grew lame, etc. Also, there is a conscious that they can't be punished for anything, be it lack of updates for years, or douchebagery, or something third.
I mean, really, if we talk about the serious company here, in every contract there is a clause against harming a reputation of the company. Thus, one can be fired or sued just because he was talking around that company failed to give him last payment. Well, isn't douchebagerry a way of harming company's reputation too? If a nasty person is related to the company, giving a bad name through his own appearance?
Oh, this just came to my mind: KeenSpot is the only company where employees can't be fired. I wish I thought of this earlier.

You have an irritating habit of latching on to the least significant parts of my posts, Ghast.

Again, you're saying the same thing I said earlier! Give back my glasses, you customer!

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:18 pm

Ghastly wrote:
Kisai wrote: I think my only real gripe with keenspace, isn't with keenspace, but rather who holds the keys. It took almost TWO years to get access to the forum server, it took damn well forever to get domains to update, and I still do not have access to that server.

So basicly put, I ask for access to things so I can fix/change it without having to email nate/gav, because quite honestly, they ignore their email. This is not how you run a service, and if this was a business (and keenspace users were customers) then people would refuse to do business with a company that doesn't have any customer support.

Gav doesn't want anything to do with running keenspace, check the comixpedia article if you don't believe me. Nate... I want to put "wanted posters" up on keenspace "Have you seen this guy? Please tell him to read his email" . Only when something serious happens do I ever get a response, and it usually takes "I've got a bomb" like statements like Kelly did last time to get a response.
Oh yes indeed, another one of my gripes is that Kisai is not being given the power and authority to run the technical aspects of Space the way it needs to be run. No one in the Keen exec wants the responsibility and burdon of actually having to make Space work yet they're reluctant to hand over that responsibility and burdon to someone who, in my opinon, has more than proven herself not only capable of performing the task but worthy of earning the trust to do so.

Kisai is doing many wonderful things for all of us here on Keen and she's doing them with both hands tied behind her back.

Keen wants the revinue and promotional might of Space functioning for them but they're not interested in actually doing anything above the bare minimum to keep it running.

Kisai seriously needs to be given complete access to the tools she needs to not only keep Space running but to improve the way Space runs.

FINALLY!

NOW we're talking sense, people!

As a wrangler, I'd have to agree with this. It's silly stopping Kisai from being productive when she obviously is capable of doing so much more.

In fact right now, if someone wanted to be hosted by ghastly 's domain name, it could be done, so someone wanting to be tentacle.ghastlycomics.com could do that.
Oooh! I could really have my own army of minions then... eeeeeeeexcellent.

Cool, you mean each of us with domain names can host other sites?!

*evil grin* as she remembers.

RPin wrote:You see, that's why threads like these are needed. I know you people are getting tired at Ghastly taunting at Keen everytime, but it's bitching like this that gets us anywhere. It was a thread like this that got EOI and CYS spotted, remember?

It wasn't just that thread, Pin. There was a lot of behind the scenes stuff that never came to light. There was also the Chris Crosby letter-writing campaign, for one.

Also don't forget the disparity of the issues involved here. For EOI and CYS to be Spotted it was a relatively simple thing. They were fantastic comics in their own right to begin with, add the fact that they were popular and Keenspot already had a established process for gaining new comics to their collective; it was just a matter of time... Our actions sped up the process considerably (Maybe as much as a year or two) and made sure no way in hell or high water could CC and co miss those two, but when it comes down to it, Keenspot did not Spot CYS and EOI just because we campaigned for it in a thread.

They also did it because they were convinced that it was in their own interests to.

Spotting two comics is one thing. Getting someone to change the entire structure of their company when they don't want to is another. No. I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't see Keenspot changing its spots as a thing likely to happen. They see Keenspace as a free-hosting service, and more recently because of our development here, as a community for aspiring comic artists.

Ranting and yelling at them will never make them see it as anything else. More likely it'd just reinforce the opinion that we're good for nothing whiners and freeloader and what have you.

If we want respect, we're gonna have to earn it by more than just talking. That means actual work. (IF you're wondering where the 'work' in the CYS and EOI issue was, see comic itself)

Ghastly did it before when Burstnet pulled his ads. Instead of sitting around complaining he went ahead and came up with a new ad system of his own. And Crosby listened.

Also if Kisai had never appeared at Keenspace *shudders at the thought* do you think yelling at the admins would have gotten us a more stable server? I don't think so. Too much work for someone not interested in it. More likely they would have gone "Nothing but complaints! That's gratitude for you! I'm getting out!" and Keenspace would have folded and joined KeenPrime in limbo.

No, I think the reason why we're so stable now is because Kisai (and Kelly with the Keenspace main page revamp) actually went ahead and did things to improve Keenspace themselves instead of trying to get someone who wasn't interested to.

Oh, and since it's probably been 10 pages of posts since I reiterated this:

The main reason I'm in favour of pushing for a new name is because the Fab Four won't allow us to use Keenspace. Whether it's confusing or now... it's up to interpretation but what I do know is that having a different name would give us a little more freedom.

And it's most likely even if the name changes, we'll still be called the Keenspacers anyway.

The new name would be more of a pen name or an alias for official purposes, if you like.

McD wrote:Again, you're saying the same thing I said earlier! Give back my glasses, you customer!

Damn it, Ghastly! You've started a trend now. Now we're going to be using the word 'customer' as a deadly insult.

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:38 pm

Phalanx wrote:Also don't forget the disparity of the issues involved here. For EOI and CYS to be Spotted it was a relatively simple thing. They were fantastic comics in their own right to begin with, add the fact that they were popular and Keenspot already had a established process for gaining new comics to their collective; it was just a matter of time... Our actions sped up the process considerably (Maybe as much as a year or two) and made sure no way in hell or high water could CC and co miss those two, but when it comes down to it, Keenspot did not Spot CYS and EOI just because we campaigned for it in a thread.

There were tons of wonderful and popular Space comics that were denied a place on Spot before and you know it, Ping. I still believe that HUGE discussion was crucial on making Crosby getting up on his ass to invite EOI, Saturnalia and CYS to be on Spot. Yes, maybe he was intending to. But it was our bitching, on the thread and before it that made him go further on that decision.

I dunno... Maybe it's because I have this bitchy nature (I'm even worse than Ghastly), I think it's unfair to classify complaining as doing nothing. I too got up on my ass to do something for Space, and I already told you how I was interested into filling the designer position of the Space Wranglers. But experience has shown me that bitching and whinning brings out more results than not, as long as are reasonable about it.