Computer vrs. Hand Inking

[KittyKatBlack]

I think it all depends on the look you're trying to achive. If your going for a comic style, like in White Hydra (Which I actually really like.) the computer outlining not only makes mass production of similar images (Which is basicly what a comic is.) easier, it also makes the lines crisper and more stylized.

Now if you're going for single art works, doing things by hand might achieve a different affect. But again, it all depends on your style. I personally don't ink any of my work by hand, simply because I don't have good pens (And can't afford any) and normally end up screwing up the pencil work. I just ink in photoshop. Though, it looks like Flash might be a fun thing to try, if I ever got a chance to use it.

[Superlance]

Just to add something from the inker's point of view - digital inking heavily depends on your working material. I just have a mouse to work with, and that totally sucks, so I'm using pens to do this part of work without the computer.

I only use a mouse.
That's no excuse.

[Psiogen]

Penciling is the true art! No, inking is the true art! Penciling! Inking! Penciling! Inking! RRARARG&##$@#$!!!

What is this, the presidential campaign??

A great pencil drawing, badly inked, or a shitty pencil drawing, beautifully inked, will both look like crap. Every element is important.

[Fullcircle]

I pencil, my wife inks. She is a better inker than I am, and it IS an art form. It's a style. I've watched her look at a perfectly good page and go 'Awh, crap' and start over, and render an even more beautiful version of my pencils. And yes, I can tell. And NO, a monkey couldn't replicate it. Thickness of the lines, where, where to leave spaces, cleaning up and sharpening a piece. It's not just tracing for 'bored unskilled people'.
*grumbles about the 'thats so gay' generation...* I just love being used as an euphemism for CRAP. Stop using Gay in place of Lame, stupid ignorant human worm babies! Gaaah! Such a massive pet peeve! Stop it, stop it, stop it!*hits him with a brick!!*... Ah, that's better... where was I?

If you prefer another style, great. But don't put down artists, or frankly ANYONE, for the sole reason that you don't understand it and/or do things their way yourself. I like hand-inked just like I like hand-drawn. I notice the difference. This doesn't mean I DON'T like digital. I color my comic in photoshop not because I don't want to spend the money on markers, but because I like being able to erase and not risk fucking up the beautiful inking job.

~SR

[Phact0rri]

I agree, with they are both important, and the whole digital verses analog... what is art crap? not again. There are people who do both, neither what ever. But gawd forbid don't be standing up and saying somthing sucks if you haven't ever done it. or just hating cause you can't do it.

As to the Leifield crack... this is a good point. Liefield's anatomy is so bad, not even Ian Churchill can make his work look good.

But there is no better. Like in music, Analog has its pros and con and digital has its pros and cons. most of us who have done both know what those are and make the decision based on what were trying to accomplish. Your voice is not in your tools, they are in you. A pianist can still play a great sound in on a grand piano and a synth. but I doubt a progressive dance song would sound great on a grand piano, and ever heard Hayden's fireworks played on synth... don't.

"art for arts sake is a lie"

[William G]

Oh, where do I start? I got a raging fanboy and a miffed computer colorist on my case. Only one of whom has been able to provide much other than swearing for their arguments.

I guess I'll have to do it step by step.

Raging Fanboy

You sir, are a fucking moron.

I'm used to dealing with some of the nastiest foul-mouthed mother-fuckers in the whole world. This fails to impress me.

Where the fuck you grow up? Goddamn Russia?

Right next door in Canada.

That seems to be your ass-backwards philosophy!

No, my philosophy is "Learn your art, increase your skills" This is offensive to you, why? Because you don't want to do it?

Where should I start?

Not throwing this little tantrum would have been your best bet.

1- Pencilling is the art. Inking is just some gay-ass cover on it and isn't art at all. It can easily be replicated by a monkey and an image editting program with better results than hand inked work.

Again, no.

Pencils are the construction of the image. Inks are the finishing touches of the image. Both are very important. The idea that a computer can do it better is great as long as you dont mind having a sterile looking work.

2- Jack Kirby is dead and his time was half a century ago. Wake up and smell the motherboard. This is the motherfucking computer age. What? You gonna pull up Renaissance shit now? Gonna go Post-Modern on my ass? Pfft! Stop wearing frilly shirts and swirling your wine glass.

And if you had actually said something here, I would care.

3- What the fuck you got against digital coloring? What's done today in 2004 makes everything done in the early 90s and 80s look like horse shit.

I have nothing against it as long as it's done right. It's rarely done right. It has to be part of the image. As a whole. If I notice it, and the over-dependence upon photoshop effects, then it's not done correctly.

4- Marvel and DC and Image are the world's biggest comic publishers. They've established themselves for the last century as the dominant disturbutors of quality entertainment. That's more than I can say for you, so choke on "deez nuts", asshole.

In the 1950s, before "Seduction Of The Innocent" destroyed the business, the top selling comic books were selling about 30 million copies a month. The only reason Timely and DC are still around is because they were the only ones to survive. Before the late 1950s, they were small fry publishers.

In the boom of the 1980s, the top selling comics were selling roughly 5 million a month. Last I checked these things, JLA/ Avengers was the top selling comic, and it had only sold a few hundred thousand. It seems to me that the industry is DEAD, and has been dying for a long time. The reason for this is because they've been putting out the same shit they always have been.

Since you like wrestling, what I just did was "Lay the smackdown on your candy ass" with information.

See what education does for you?

5- Comics are fucking comics, assclown - it just so happens they are communicated through art. They either suck, or don't. Even the webcomic scene also shows who is inking and who isn't - the art in the inked comics are always rougher in comparison to the clean and professional digitally rendered ones.

Comics are art, and until you start viewing your own comics as such, you will never improve.

If you enjoy being dead in the water, that's up to you.

6- Hendrix sucked. He was so strung out he could never play the same song twice, his guitar was nothing but noise and the only reason people put kudos on him today is because strung out hippies have done the same since Hendrix was on the scene so everyone wants to fit in and say "Yeah, Hendrix was the man" so they don't feel left out.

And if you had actually said something here, I would care.

As well, I don't want to be the first person to tell you this, but the only people who post "Owned" pictures are people who are incapable of owning anything. To own someone, you have to prove them wrong thanks to the power of your intellect, or debating skills. Simply being a cranky child like you have been, doesn't give you the right to post that picture.

So, go away, read some books, learn something about the art-form you practice, and when you discover that you've gotten better, crawl back to me and apologize for being a moron.

Miffed Computer Colorist

it simply gives better color

This purely personal taste on your part. Don't try to claim it as anything else.

is not your right to critisize it

And why is that? Did God come down from Heaven and make an 11th commandment that said "Thou shalt not critisize computer coloring" when I wasn't looking?

My blood pressure is to high to even bother with the other ignorant statements you have made unto the other comments

Then this statement is irrelivent.

So either open that rusty box you call a mind to a little outside influence, or shut the hell up.

Get back to me when you can offer something of substance. Like an argument supporting your view.

Okay?

[Mr Ekshin]

I pencil my pages, then use Macromedia Flash to ink the lines.
I don't actually ink at all.

Here's an old example I did to show what I do:

I might have to fiddle with flash some time. I've always liked the way flash leaves the curves so smooth. My own hands can't replicate that.

Stuff looks good when it's done, or it doesn't - whatever the methods. I've never seen the merit behind having to jump through hoops to get an end product that I want. That would be like saying I have to learn to ride a horse before I'm allowed to use modern transportation like my car. I ink by hand, but would rather do it on the computer.

Saying things like pencil is the true art blah blah automatically trashes all tag art - where the "ink" of the spray can is the basis. Or airbrush: where the coloring, applied in different ways is what carries the art. There's just so many ways.

And either can now be imported into the computer to be a comic. Would be interresting to see someone do a comic from photographing their tag art. I'd bookmark it.

Not everyone will see quality the same way. The comic stands are full of shit I can't believe is popular. So inevitably, it's always a matter of what the masses want to see. If someone thinks they are an undiscovered genius, but an audience doesn't congregate to their work, then they might just be out of synch with the times, and might not get popular until after their dead.

I like white hydra. It looks slick, and has a neat style. Liked Samara better with a nose, but I guess I can't have everything.

I also like White Ninja. And it's totally different. It could be drawn with a stick in the sand, and It'd probably still make me happy.

I also like Diesel Sweeties. I don't think that guys sweating over pencils.

The answer to every question like this is always: Who do you want to please?

[Heffaloop]

I'm still trying to find my style.. which includes experimenting with hand inking and digital inking. So far I think digital inking is winning.. but it's not like I'm not hand inking because I can't. Right now I'm hand inking and then optimising it in flash...... I might try skipping the inking though. Interesting.

[Joel Fagin]

I'd like to bring up a good point: The Matrix.

Computers allow for an incredible amount of freedom, as they able to replicate - visually - anything you can do for real and more. The limitations cease to be those of the materials and become simply those of your imagination. Matrix, as flawed as the plot may be considered, is a wonderful example of the power of computers coupled with imagination. So is Dark City, come to that.

It applies to comics as well. Not only can computers simulate watercolour, oils, ink, pencil, lens flares and so on (as well as combining them all in one piece of artwork), but they can do any number of other things that have no real-world analogue.

Unfortunatly, we've barely scratched the surface in comics but the point stands: All other mediums have rigid limitations that restrict the artist. but computers free the artist from the constraints of the real world, yet allow him to simulate them if wished.

Computers allow a purer, more accurate vision.

Unfortunatly, they also allow two thousand pixel wide pencil-on-lined-paper scans, damnit.

- Joel Fagin

[Phalanx]

The definition of comics is generally: "Sequential Art".

The definition of "art"? Well, it's one of those maddening essay topics that your high school art teacher makes you write when you'd prefer to be painting. I'm not sure if there ever will be an answer.

But one thing's for sure, art is not confined to one medium. For the love of comics, people, try to Think OUTSIDE the box a little. Art is varied. Styles vary. This should be a good thing.

You can do a comic in watercolours, pastels, acrylic or your pinkie toe dipped in blood for all I care, the means do not matter, the result does.

And for the record, I'm not bashing inkers. Because I used to ink myself. And I appreciate what it takes to be a good inker.

Inking is skill I highly respect, and it IS beautiful, but I will stress that ink does not equate to comics. Comics need not be inked or done by hand to be considered 'REAL' comics.

Ink is a medium, just like watercolour or oil is a medium in fine art. It's the preferred medium for comics, maybe, but this is mainly tradition: ink made things easier to print back then. And times have changed, mindsets SHOULD change too.

Why must we insist that only hand-inked comics are done by REAL comic artists? IMHO, it's stupid. It's like insisting fine artists are the only REAL artists in the art world, and comic artists and graphic designers are just cheap hacks who don't have the talent and take the easy way out.

This is the INTERNET, people. These are WEBCOMICS we're talking about. Creator-owned webcomics. Comics where we are free to chose our own stories and styles!

With all that BS about freedom of expression in content and whatever blathering argements I see debated in forums and Comixpedia, I find it hyprocrisy that the same people who say this insist on binding themselves, and others to limited art styles due to tradition from an otherwise derided parent industry.

It's fine if you want to ink. I'm not saying that inking is any less of an art compared to digital colouring or pencils are whatever, but what I'm saying is if you want respect for your own medium of art, then respect others too.



--Ping

[RPin]

I have a hard time telling who is advocating pro-pencil or against it. Either way, it takes an open mind to enjoy traditional ink, digital ink, pencil works, pixel works, etc. all the same. Now I don't care who started it, you're both grounded! Go to your room!

By the way, I still owe you a reply, Bill. Sorry, I've been busy the last few days.

[Van Douchebag]

Now I don't care who started it, you're both grounded! Go to your room!

Grandma has spoken.

Edit: Oh, and this thread was split from another so that's why it seems odd.

[Soap Soaperson]

How about being equally dependant on inking and digital works? I could draw my comic in mainly ink, but without photoshop, I wouldn't have any shading.

I went through my archives just now, curious about the variances in my pages. I haven't really found my style yet - I never took art seriously until this year. I switch around methods all the time, trying to see what I like, and what my audience likes.



I like how Ping put it, with the whole, "You can do a comic in watercolours, pastels, acrylic or your pinkie toe dipped in blood for all I care, the means do not matter, the result does. "

[Sortelli]

OMFG, it might be the lack of sleep but I've been in a fog since I started reading this thread and heard the words "master of pacing" applied to the creator of Dragonball.

Anyway, I hand-ink my comic because I like to do it and I like the practice. But the more I see how fantastically clean and nice computer lines can be, the more I consider trying it out. If that's "sterile", I want it. I just have no experience inking on the computer. I also don't have Flash or Illustrator, which seem to be better on the line tools than my Paintshop. Or maybe they're not and I just haven't grasped the secret of teh linez yet. So I dunno if I will be switching soon.

All this bruhaha about hand-inking being the secret of life is the talk of angry telegraph operators raging at them new-fangled telephones. I mean, sure, it's faster and turns out better quality with less effort, but is it "art"?!?!?!?!??!

[Ruxen]

Arrr, don't confine yourself, however you do it is fine by me and most people and if someone wants to make an entire comic from photos of used gum all the more power to them. The industry is quite stuck on what it expects of you though and I'm learning more and more each day that there is one right way to do it and if I deviate no one will want to hire me in 3 more years the leaders are stuck on what they are sure works and in the end it seems to be destroying their empires, that is probably the main reason why the North American comic industry is at a standstill, 20 (?) years ago comics were the big thing and it was a staple of childhood now children are more interested in the next cliched Pokemon wannabe show. I don't know why most people in the general comic book industry are so rigid on what they'd like to see, I'm sure at least some fans of the industry would like to see something new hit the shelves, but if I'm heading into that jungle all I know is it takes practice by hand before I can think of using a computer, some people like the "imperfection of the human hand" this very same debate was waged a long time ago when photography was first invented and although the circumstances are different the main reason for debate now seem to be your clean sharp computer generated lines or hand inked lines with human flaws, it's both art and it's both accepted I doubt hand inking will ever die, art certainly didn't die when photography came around it merely evolved. The hand starts the process and the machine perfects it. Learn to paint with real paint before you paint with digital, there's nothing wrong with digital I infact prefer it but there's something to be said for tradition even if it is old and tired and the old masters are long dead.

[McDuffies]

Inking by hand is where your artistic "voice" starts to come through, not your pencils.

Um...no. Inking is for people with free time or little talent.
Pencilling is the true art behind comics, with digital coloring coming next.

I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about. No one in the comic book industry inks their own works unless they are self-publishing.

You're trying to skip the important stuff.

Inking is not important in an artist's repetoire, and Toriyama's day is over. This is the West, and despite how efficient the Japanese are Akira's tactics are exactly the opposite - you get your dollar's worth, but rarely more than that with his work.

That's why american comics are dying inside. Giving penciling and ink to different persons in senceless, the only reason americans are doing that is to speed up the production.
We're not talking here about building houses or making iron fence or something. There are no such strict rules when it comes to this.
Comic in pencil is totally differently looking than comic in ink, neither of them can be labeled as the work of less or more skilled person.
Van, do you actually know how to ink by hand, with a quill or brush? I guess you don't because then you'd know that it's damn tough, it took me a few years to get a hang of it, and I'm still not satisfied with results.
But if we're talking in terms of american comics, pencilers are respected more but just because their work includes general decisions like character poses and camera angles. Inker is the one responsible for the refined look of the ending product.

[William G]

All this bruhaha about hand-inking being the secret of life is the talk of angry telegraph operators raging at them new-fangled telephones.

No talking nonsense please, I got enough of it already.

it's faster

So is jerking off. Doesnt mean it's better than sex.

and turns out better quality

This is debateable... in fact it's why there is this "debate" I say it produces a sterile line devoid of personality. Much like a cartoon that was done by an army of low paid animators in Korea.

Assembly line art.

with less effort,

Which is really what a lot of the resistance to my suggestion that you learn to work the medium yourself comes down to: People defending their right to be lazy.

Using the computer to do things is important in the world of webcomics. I do, lots of people who are better artists than the lot of us combined do.

But all of those "Professionals" that got mentioned above know how to ink and color by hand. Since they have mastered these techniques, they know how to use a computer to color and NOT make it look like "Filters On Parade"... for example.

but is it "art"

Comics are an expression of the creative processes. IE: Art. This shouldnt be difficult to understand.


Pin: I'm cool. No big rush.

[LAGtheNoggin]

Is it me, or do people find that using Photoshop with a tablet to ink and then going back to traditional ink find that traditional has become twenty times easier?

Or is that just me?

Speaking of which, photoshop = everything (including pencils). RAWR.

[Sortelli]

And furthermore, all these horseless carriages don't have the charm of the traditional buggy. That's why travel is dying. There's not enough horseshit.

Sorry, William, you're getting nothing but nonsense from me. This is what happens when you act snooty: People do not take you or your opinions seriously.

[KittyKatBlack]

Personally, I do think it's fine to defend your right to be lazy. If you can create a product with the same quality, but with less effort, then I don't see any reason NOT to do it. To do things the hard way JUST for the sake of doing them the hard way is a concept that baffles me. Knowing how to cook over using a microwave, I could understand should you ever be stuck without a microwave. But then again, not being able to ink is not exactly a life threatening situation.

And to be perfectly frank, some people just want to make fun things for people to look at. They're not concerned with being revered as an amazing artist. They just want to have some fun with it And there's nothing wrong with that.