Further for Ironpaw

[ZOMBIE USER 10068]

There's another reason getting one has been exactly a priority. I don't mean to sound condescending, but most people don't really know the reality of guns and killing. When I entered the corps, I was just like all the kids with heads full of patriotism and complete naivety. Through out my training, the more I learned, the more curious I became, and the more I doubted.

It started as what I thought would be a journey to prepare myself mentally to go into battle. I expanded my knowledge on all areas of war. Combined arms, heavy weapons, booby traps, ect. I studied the battles of WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and others. I watched endless hours of historical programs, battle footage, solider interviews. I spent many weekends at the base library reading books on mines, explosives, air support... and battlefield medicine. The deeper you delve into the truths of war, the more it changes your perceptions. There are no heroes, no historic campaigns, and no medals. Only death, pain, and pointless destruction. I watched completely uncensored films where captives were shot in head, men had their throats cut. Where soldiers that where less whole than in pieces bled and died right there in front of you. Hollywood with all it's effects will never match what you see when you watch the light fade from a mans eyes. This is stuff that doesn't let you sleep at night, and when you do, the nightmares come. In my dreams I've held my best friend in my arms. He'd stepped on a mine, one leg was gone, and the rest of him was shredded. He looked at me crying, begging me not to let him die. All I could do was watched as he left this world, not quietly, not suddenly, but slowly screaming all the way. I'd never been into battle, but I saw it there so clearly in my minds eye that my roommate jumped out of his bed and tackled me when I woke up screaming and running toward the door. I set out on a quest to harden myself against war, and was instead swallowed by it.

After all I've seen, and all I learned, I want nothing to do with war. It's so stupid, so pointless. Men killing men and always there is nothing but destruction to show for it. After thousands of years of evolution, we still act like rabid animals to each other.

So in the end, I support national defense, and will still lay my life down for the miracle of freedom we've created in America. But in the meantime, I'd like to avoid that particular demon.

[W.M.Y.L.G. Joe]

*puts arm around Shadow's shoulder* I feel the same way. I haven't had the same experiences as you, but I've come to the same conclusion by seeing those watered down hollywood versions. While everyone came out ranting about Saving Private Ryan and feeling patriotic, I felt sick. Not from the gore, but from seeing all that loss. I just cannot see any good that violence does us and there doesn't seem to be many who agree with me. Many of my friends from school are planning to or have joined one of the armed forces. All they talk about most of the time is how "cool" violence is. It's a sad, numbed world we live in.

[Ironpaw]

I don't mean to sound like an inexperienced war monger. I don't mean to sound like a war monger in any respect. The things you have cited are very true. Except that as horrible as war is, it is very neccessary to a number of "goods" in our society as well as being the reason our society is here at all. Not because of "war" persay, but the fact that the people that founded our society were willing to fight for what they believed in. I don't have a LOT of world experience, but let me call from what I can.

For the past 2 1/2 years I've been a funeral director with the mortuary here in town. Not only do I run funerals, but I pick up the deceased from where they've died, from the coroner's office and from other places. I also quite often assist in embalmings etc. My mortuary has a contract with Camp Pendleton MCB meaning that 99% of Marines killed on or off base in the area come through us. I've seen and worked on many hundreds of marines. The two highest causes were traffic accidents (usually on motorcylces) and self inflicted gunshot wounds. I've worked on marines that were murdered, killed during training accidents, helicopter crashes, and even two marines killed in Afganistan.

Though I've now moved on, I was on the street with the SD County Sheriff's Dept for 3 years. I've been the first on the scene at a number of suicides, homicides, and other related sites. I've been shot at (or at least in the general direction of) more than once. And I've seen many and probably some of the same training videos you have. Haven't seen someone die first hand, but we both know how vivid those videos can be.

Have these things shaken me? Of course. Have they damaged me? No. I've certain instances in my mind that make me shutter to think of them right now. But I'm ok with them. They don't pollute my idealism. I haven't hardened my heart because of them, or been traumatized. They don't destroy the innocense or the beauty of this world as God created it.

Death scares me. It does. Not in concept, because I am truly certain about where I shall be when I die. It scares me because of it's incongruency. It truly doesn't belong. When you've been as close to it as I... you see it's dark and foreboding. It truly is terrible.

I don't believe I've become calloused to violence or death. I don't like death, but I've come to terms with it. It's disgusting but I can handle it without it destroying my appreciation for life.

I don't really know how to defend my affinity for firearms having said all that. I appreciate their craftsmanship, their design, their responsibility. To a lesser extent I guess they offer me a sense of security. If firearms (in the hands of an enemy) respresent the epitomy of threat to my living body, some peace of mind comes from knowing that I possess the skills and equipment to counter if not best that threat. As I persue a career in Law Enforcement, I hope and pray to GOD that I never have to kill anybody. However, I am ready without hesitation should I be forced into that position WITH NO VIABLE ALTERNATIVE.

War, in the same way, is terrible, but neccessary. We have the right and the duty to defend ourselves and our interests in the face of those that would harm us. Not defense with reckless and selfish abandon, but justice tempered with mercy. You're right, war is stupid, and if we would all just get along, it'd be solved. Guns are dangerous and if we didn't have a need to defend ourselves with them they would serve little purpose as well.

I have to say that I disagree that war has no heros. The villians are those that would sacrifice other lives for their own interests. The heros are all those fighters on both sides that are there not to be cruel, not to find an unchecked arena to commit atrocities, but to fight for, at the very least, their own lives and so often the lives of their buddies. So often marching forward into the maw of terrible death when they'd rather be any place else but there. It is all loss, and waste and destruction, but when there is nothing but blackness, when all values read zero, there does glimmer; however polluted blackened and broken, the God bestowed light of human spirit. It's that hope that is beautiful. It's that last chance in a world of decay, that last grasp as one slips into a chasm, it's that last shining rey of hope that inspires beyond the pitch vaccum. It's the only nobility to come out of it. The only face to be saved. It's repugnant but stark beauty is at the very least unique. And it's not much. Hardly grandiouse. Yet powerful all the same.

I don't know. I love people. I long to be kind. To care, to share to be at peace and joy with those around me. I don't want to be pompous or thought of as a tough guy or I wouldn't be saying this. For gosh sakes, I'm a furry, can you get any sappier than that?! ; )
I don't know everything, I can be loud mouthed and cocky and aggressive and belligerant at times too. But that doesn't encompass who I want to be or who I strive to be. I strive to be humble and meek and endearing. I forget often, but... when it comes down to it, I certainly hope it's who I truly have been made by God to be. And if I come of as a gun toting looney who glories in the death of innocents, then... I've been showing the wrong face of myself for far too long.

[ZOMBIE USER 7262]

If I may add my voice.

I'd like to begin by stating that I have never seen military service, have never been in a deadly conflict, and have never fired military-calibre weaponry. I spent five years with Air Cadets, and in that time I did some target shooting with .22-calibre rifles in an indoor firing range. I've since sworn an oath that I will never fire a gun again unless it is to defend myself or someone else, and only when I or they are in mortal danger. I'm a pacifist, I am.

War is the biggest lie humanity has perpetuated upon itself. War is sanctioned murder. If only everyone knew the truth about war; only those who were psychopaths would choose to fight.

I agree that freedom comes at a price, and that price has been forced upon us in blood. We've made war necessary throughout history.

But if people knew the horrible, sickening truth about war in this age...I believe many of them would require counselling. I will not attempt to shock you, but I have some very disturbing facts about war. War involves children.

Not just as innocent civilians caught in a raid on a village, such as in Vietnam. Not just as innocent victims when a civil war cuts off all supplies to a remote village and starvation sets in in Winter. If only it were that, I could have faith in the future.

I'm talking about child soldiers. Children as young as six years old forced to commit atrocities in the name of war. Children who are so drugged up, their senses so dulled, that they are resistant to the trauma of taking an innocent's life.

In Sierra Leone, rebel units are often composed of up to 80% children under the age of 16, again, some as young as six. Government forces also use children, but often more like 50-60% of a unit's number. Modern technology allows a ten-year old to wield a relatively high-powered pistol. These children are often forced into service, beaten and abused to ensure compliance. To sever family ties, recruiting solders often force the children to commit atrocities and even murder against their own families. This is in the case of male children. Female children...well, you ought to be able to figure it out.

And the drugs...a favoured drug is brown brown, a mixture of gunpowder and cocaine. This ensures that the child is literally out of his mind, obedient and with senses so blunted the trauma won't register. More children die from drug overdoses than actual armed conflict. I won't even tell you how brown brown is administered. I couldn't sleep for several nights after learning how.

I apologize if I've shocked or disturbed you. But this is part of the truth about war. It's so horrific I can't even begin to comprehend being a soldier on a battlefield. There is always a better way.

I've quoted my facts from memory, but I gathered the information from <a href="http://www.freethechildren.org">Free the Children</a>, a cause I feel quite strongly about.

[W.M.Y.L.G. Joe]

I haven't much time to write this morning, so this will be short. I understand that war is necessary at times. I know that God can make good out of the bad of anything. But that doesn't take away the fact that some of us just don't have the thick skin others might have. I just can't personally partake in bloodshed like that, and like Elix, I am a pacifist. If I have to, I will defend myself or someone else who needs my help, but I can't go and willingly put myself in a position that requires me to kill or seriously hurt someone. It's just something that isn't part of "who God made me to be" as Ironpaw put it. Once again, I know war is like sin in this world, we just can't avoid it at times, because we're human and flawed. Of course, it's discussions like these I guess that really make me appreciate what Jesus did at times. Puts it back into perspective when I'm straying, ya' know? Okay, I'm done.

[Crash]

I briefly looked at this thread earlier in the day, but I had no time to post a response. In the meantime, sitting in traffic and thinking, I realize that there isn't much I can say; while I have a fair bit of academic knowledge on these subjects, I feel that my lack of experience in this area leaves me unqualified to speak. Beyond that, I have an exceedingly hard time saying, "We should go to war" because I'm not the one who will have to go and fight it. I considered military service, but after some long conversations with my father, I came to the conclusion that I would not fit in the military. If called, I certainly will serve, but I still feel a basic conflict between a sense of duty to this country and the fact that I am ill-suited to serve. Because of that, I am loath to criticize or second-guess those who do.

Besides, no one here disagrees on the main point; war IS bad. I suppose I'll find a few points to ruminate about.

I think it is important to separate the details of war from the broader reasons for conducting one. If Lincoln had focused on the horrific results of 19th-century warfare (think of an era without sulfonamides, antibiotics, transfusions, or much in the way of anesthetics), then it is likely we would still be a divided country, and much progress made in this century would never have been attained. In the international arena, warfare and the ability to prosecute a war are important diplomatic tools-- "Warfare is the continuation of diplomacy by other means" as Otto Von Bismarck is supposed to have said. The military is an instrument whereby a nation achieves security and other goals, though this is not often mentioned in public discourse. One of the greatest things about our country is that there is civilian control over the military in the form of the Commander In Chief and Congressional power to declare war (and appropriate funds)-- it means that, in some way, the citizens have a measure of control over the deployment and use of military forces, so that the military serves them, and not vice versa.

War is the biggest lie humanity has perpetuated upon itself. War is sanctioned murder. If only everyone knew the truth about war; only those who were psychopaths would choose to fight.

You are right, Elix: War is sanctioned murder. However, it is my opinion that the events you speak of do not qualify as war. In general, wars have rules of engagement, are fought by professional (or at least government-organized) soldiers, and are conducted between nation-states or political groups. Rules of engagement include such things as not deliberately killing, abusing, enslaving, or otherwise involving civilians; not killing or abusing surrendering enemy troops or prisoners of war; and sometimes specific criteria for the use of force. Yes, these rules are broken in every conflict, but they are obeyed more often than disobeyed. Genocide and mass executions of either combatants or civilians are considered war crimes, and should never be sanctioned. (*sigh* I expect to get nailed on something in here, but this is my general perception of how war should be conducted. Here, here's a nice 12 pound hammer. Go to it.)

I would consider the examples you present to be acts of terrorism, child abuse, murder, and slavery, but not war. The people who do these things should be hunted down and killed.

I would disagree with your statement that only psychopaths would choose to fight. Many officers and enlisted personnel who fought in WWII re-enlisted and fought in Korea (such as Ted Williams); many Korean war veterans did the same and saw combat in Viet Nam. Many of these men had families, good jobs and comfortable lives. However, they chose to go back because of a sense of duty, a love of country, or because they had strong ideals and beliefs. There are many different motivations, and I don

[Lily]

"To everything there is a season and a time for every purpose under Heaven. . ."

For awhile I thought I was a pacifist, and then things happened. I have nothing against pacifism at all. There will always be evil in the world until the second coming of Christ, and while we wait for that we have to do what we have to do. I don't believe that we will ever have true peace until that day and so if war arises, it must be fought.

I think war is a terrible thing. It's easy for me to brush it off, being a girl who will probably never have to face the draft, but I have a fairly vivid imagination and I know that because of evil there are people - more beast than human - who commit unspeakable atrocities against mankind. Isn't it right, then, to put an end to the animals who do such things?

It's a hard Catch-22. When it all comes down to basics, it is simply a matter of good and evil, that overused cliche we have seen so much that we don't even realize what it means. There is evil in the heart of man, some people act on that evil. There are people who have good in them and when they see evil they react to fight for what is good.

Before you jump all over me, let me say one more thing. I know that this probably sounds naieve, but I had to throw in my opinion. In some ways it's so simple and in some ways it's so complex. I don't particularly agree with war and violence, but because of sin, it's inevitable.

Please don't eat me alive. I probably shouldn't have opened my big mouth.

"I sing to life and to it's tragic beauty. To pain and to stife and all that dances through me. The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all. . ."

[TwoDifferentSox]

It's a hard Catch-22. When it all comes down to basics, it is simply a matter of good and evil, that overused cliche we have seen so much that we don't even realize what it means. There is evil in the heart of man, some people act on that evil. There are people who have good in them and when they see evil they react to fight for what is good.

I think that that it is sadly not as easy as you describe.
War is in the fewest cases of good between evil, no matter how much each side wants to make their people want to believe it. It's always a question of power, wealth, politics, ethnics, beliefs...
And the people fighting the war are not the people that started it.
The suffering and destruction it causes is quite bad, it hits everyone, sadly includeing the innocent ones, always on both sides.
I'm though also quite aware that it is close to impossible to avoid it sometimes, but doesn't change my mind that everthing has to be tried before this last, most drastic cause is even considered.
My beliefs are hardly compatible with the real world, and I guess that makes some people think of me as a naive tree-hugging freak, but hey, I do like the thought of everyone living in peace and harmony.
And when that is illegal, someone feel free to sue me.

And don't feel bad for voicing your oppinion, I find it interesting to read, and to comment on (as I do with this post *g*). I'm sure not going to flame you for calmly explaining your point of view.

And in case someone wants to categorize me as something, I'm the boring atheistic pacifist with all of my heart, yep.

[W.M.Y.L.G. Joe]

Pretty much ever day I go out and skateboard. It's one of the greatest things in the world to me, and I enjoy it immensly. And yet, with my skating comes great risks. Every time I step on the board I'm very likely to get hurt in some way. It's just something I've come to accept. I take my lumps.
Every day we go out and live life and most of us I'm sure enjoy the ability that God gave us to make choices. Unfortunately, with the ability to make choices, we are inevitably flawed and human. It's something else I've come to accept. It's great to have the freedom God gave us to do what we want, but with it comes sin and it happens a lot, just like me getting hurt skating. I hate seeing the pain and suffering that goes along with war as much as I hate getting hurt, but you can't have one without the other. This is just the way I've come to cope with it and understand it. But that's just me and I bring skating into everything if you can't tell.

[ZOMBIE USER 7262]

However, it is my opinion that the events you speak of do not qualify as war. In general, wars have rules of engagement, are fought by professional (or at least government-organized) soldiers, and are conducted between nation-states or political groups. Rules of engagement include such things as not deliberately killing, abusing, enslaving, or otherwise involving civilians; not killing or abusing surrendering enemy troops or prisoners of war; and sometimes specific criteria for the use of force. Yes, these rules are broken in every conflict, but they are obeyed more often than disobeyed. (snip)

I would consider the examples you present to be acts of terrorism, child abuse, murder, and slavery, but not war. The people who do these things should be hunted down and killed.

*nods* Very good points, Crash.

However, and please don't feel like I'm being confrontational, but, that's the Western view of war. And even then..heh. Atrocities happen. Killing someone in the heat of battle does strange things to your brain.

However, consider Sierra Leone again. It is a state of war. It is a state of terror. Children are being born into a world where all there is is war. Atrocities are being constantly committed. The logic is, if you take over an area, the non-soldiers may rise up against you--it is better to eliminate that possibility than have to guard a village full of people. As a result, soldiers are less often fighting each other in the field, and instead are going directly through villages, recruiting (or abducting) who they can and forcing them to fight..and those who refuse or are left behind...well, they may well end up dead.

This is War, Crash. War is simply state-endorsed murder and brutality.

Yes, these are acts of terrorism, child abuse, murder, and slavery. But that's war. No one is exempt. Take Vietnam for example. American soldiers would raid a village and kill everyone in it on the suspicion that Viet Cong forces may have been hiding there.

In the overall world, war is nothing more than killing someone who doesn't agree with you, and making sure he is well and truly dead. If that means terrorizing his village and killing a few innocents to seal the point, brutally if need be, so be it.

In real war, there are no rules, so long as you don't die.

[Crash]

However, and please don't feel like I'm being confrontational, but, that's the Western view of war. And even then..heh. Atrocities happen. Killing someone in the heat of battle does strange things to your brain.

Well, I am from what many consider to be the most Western of the Western states. But I understand what you mean. I don't think you are condoning an alternate cultural and/or social understanding of warfare where there is no line drawn between combatants and non-combatants. My views are based on (conservative) American conceptions of the role, responsibilities, and limitations of government-- the basic "of the people, for the people, by the people." and such things as providing for the common defence and an environment where all citizens are reasonably free to pursue their interests and lives.

To me, war is an instrument of policy, controlled (hopefully) by a political process. As such, it can be subject to limitiations and restrictions on the actions of participants. For nations (and I use the term loosely) such as Sierra Leone, war seems to be more of a cultural or social institution. Whether this is an outgrowth of the original culture of the area, or of the aftereffects of colonization, the diamond trade, or whatever, I do believe that it is wrong, and that our model is better. Yes, we have had lapses in the past, and we will in the future. However, I would much rather that the death of civilians in warfare be rare and accidental rather than common and a matter of course.

This is War, Crash. War is simply state-endorsed murder and brutality.
{snip}....Take Vietnam for example. American soldiers would raid a village and kill everyone in it on the suspicion that Viet Cong forces may have been hiding there.

In the overall world, war is nothing more than killing someone who doesn't agree with you, and making sure he is well and truly dead. If that means terrorizing his village and killing a few innocents to seal the point, brutally if need be, so be it.

In real war, there are no rules, so long as you don't die.

Yes, but it is directed murder and brutality, not indiscriminate genocide. I think you are referring to the village of My Lai. There may have been others, too, but I would assert that such incidents were few and far between, and I am certain that there are some unpublicized occurences in which hostile forces were present.

Not to get into a raging debate over this one point, but consider this: The U.S. forces, as with most professional armies, do not use civilians as shields in warfare.

I submit that there are rules in warfare. I think that if you look at more recent conflicts you will see that, at least for Western states, it has be come more constrained and limited. In the Gulf War, we convinced thousands of Iraqi soldiers to surrender through the use of air power and propaganda. We have developed weapons that allow for much more accurate targeting of hostile forces while minimizing civilian casualties. Yes, there are misses, misfires, and mistakes. But one bomb missing a target is a vast improvement over the WWII practice of area bombing entire cities to assure the destruction of a few military or industrial targets.

At many times and in many places, war is as you have described it. But it does not have to be. The Geneva Convention is a good example of how responsible nation-states can work to reduce the suffering caused by war through addressing and codifying the treatment of prisoners and civilian populations.

And don't feel bad for voicing your oppinion,

Tobias is absolutely right. I enjoy nitpicking at other people's opinions, and I hope other people get the same pleasure nitpicking at mine.

My beliefs are hardly compatible with the real world, and I guess that makes some people think of me as a naive tree-hugging freak, but hey, I do like the thought of everyone living in peace and harmony.

This world would be much grayer and sadder if it were not for idealists, even those with seemingly unattainable ideals. If everyone's beliefs were compatible with the real world, the world would resemble the Soviet Union, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Don't apologize for sticking to your guns, even when you're wrong.

[Ironpaw]

My dear friend Tobias would change his mind if he thought he were "sticking to his guns". ; )

Just kidding Toby.

[Lily]

Geh. It's all too confusing. I haven't studied war, I've studied paintings of war. I don't condone war by any means. I think life might be easier if people mastered the art of balance. War as a last ditch attempt for. . . whatever. . . this is what happens when I start thinking.

One of the hardest things about having to grow up. . . One of the hardest things is realizing that there is pain and suffering in the world. Losing childhood innocence. Realizing that people are hurting. (And that song by REM just started running through my head. . .) Becoming more knowledgeable about reality.

It makes me want to hide under my bed. Sometimes I wish I weren't so emotional and sensitive. I care too much. You have all made me wish I could crawl into my dad's lap once more and have him read a story to me. A fairy tale with a "happily ever after" ending and all that.

I must admit that I admire you for facing the "tough stuff," the stuff that makes wimps like me cry and want to hide from reality. I also admire your logical and thoughtful opinions. You'd be less credible if you said "War is bad 'cuz I said so." Stand your ground, you'll go far with that.

Day by day I have learned that the world is a brutal place and I try to find the beauty in the pain. The flower growing in Guernica, for those of you familiar with Picassso's painting.

What can I say? I'm an optimistic, probably naieve, hopeful, dreamy girl. Sometimes I wake up from the dream.

Obviously, I still have a lot to learn about life.

"Naught's had, all's spent, where our desire is got without content. 'Tis safer to be that which we destroy than by destruction dwell in doubtful joy." (Who can name the play that came from?!?)

[ZOMBIE USER 10068]

Wow, allota long and detailed responces. Ya, I know that war is sometimes nessesary. Also, to serve your country is both a duty and privalage. It would be nice if war dissapeared tommorow, but after looking at our track record, I doubt it will.


"An american president once said, 'The price of freedom is eternal vigalence'" Roy Fokker - Robotech

[One beautiful loser]

Who puts the price on freedom? Does anyone have a right to do that?

Sometimes I wish I could just Sail Away (styx anyone?)

[Crash]

Who puts the price on freedom? Does anyone have a right to do that?

Yes, I think we do. Everyone has to determine the value of freedom to themselves, the price they are willing to pay. Those who devote their time or sacrifice their lives in defence of freedom have already done so.

Has anyone here ever read Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers? Not just seen the movie, but read the book? I'm intriuged by one aspect of the society Heinlein creates in it: While everyone's rights are guaranteed and protected, only veterans of the military have the right to vote.


ShadowFox, I know Thomas Jefferson said "Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty." Is that what you were referring to?

I've always liked Lincoln: "It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues."

[ZOMBIE USER 7262]

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed."

[Terrycloth]

That element was in the movie, too... overall, I thought the movie did a much better job of portraying the dystopia as a mockery of militarism... the book came off as deadly serious. I didn't really like it much.