1+1=3 (Or, what about the sixth Element?)

Darthen Wulf · Post by **Darthen Wulf** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:27 am

Salud, everyone! (It's Britton. It means 'Hi!'...)

*Yawn*... Sorry, I've spent all the day before listenning to the original soundtrack of the movie "Am

Elemental · Post by **Elemental** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:59 am

I originally was the sixth warrior... check out the whole deal here...

viewtopic.php?topic=32689&forum=409&19
(this is the 'poof' thread)

Rognik · Post by **Rognik** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 8:07 am

One other "element" missing, if you can call it that, is time. We all know that time exists. We can observe a change in it. We can't do much to alter its course, though.

(This idea was borrowed from a series of books. Fighting Fantasy's Sorcery mini-series; the third book was The Seven Serpents. I remember that Fire, Earth, Wind, Water, Time and Wood were 6 of them. Can't remember the 7th, though.)

Zina · Post by **Zina** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:44 am

The definition of an Element(in the world of ES, anyway) is something that creates. Mostly other worlds. Time doesn't create. True, without time, we wouldn't really live, but it doesn't create. Neither does the moon.
BUT(notice that there 'but') that doesn't mean Moon and Time might not be other gods...Indeed, Moon and Time belong somewhere on the list of gods...not saying where, tho'.

Akkhima · Post by **Akkhima** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 2:28 pm

My friend and I made up a set of characters that were originally going to be elements, but they ended up being: Sun, Moon, Fire, Water, Wood, Gold and Earth... (being the Japanese days of the week) We still need to design wood and sun (sun is the only girl).

-Akkhi

Darthen Wulf · Post by **Darthen Wulf** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 12:47 am

I do not agree when you say that Moon creates nothing: It creates Dreams. Can you imagine a world in which no one can dream? Gaaah!!! What a boring and definitely lifeless world!!!

Someone has mentionned Sun. In the cosmology of Nephilim (that is based upon western occultism annd traditionnal esoterism), the Sun is the source of all power. Energy radiates from the sun, and planets absorb it and transformed it into elemental energy: Mars gives Fire, Mercury gives Water, Jupiter gives Air, Venus gives Earth, and Moon... Well... Moon.

So, the Sun, in this paradigm, is the most potent element of all, because he creates all the others...

Whew, I'm getting serious. Too serious. Excuse me a bit, I have to take my Delirium pills...

Kenavo ar c'hentan!

Elemental · Post by **Elemental** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:35 am

Ooooohhh! I get to talk about time! I get to talk about time!
:: bouncy bouncy ::
Oh, that makes me so happy! I love talking about time!

Time is what can be called a 'passive existence'... it exists because we say it does. Time is, basically, our way of noticing that things move. Thing about it... if you were in a place where absolutely nothing moved- things didn't fall when dropped, clocks didn't tick, there was no sound, etc- you'd have no idea if time was passing.
Of course, someone's bound to come up with the idea that we have a sort of built-in time sense... that we can feel it passing. And yes, to an extent, that's true. But here's the rub- that time sense is based on our environment. Again, in an environment where nothing moved, a person's time sense would be wildly inaccurate.
On a similar note, it's been tested and proven that there are things called biorhythms... the body can actually adapt so that it 'knows' when to do things. You might notice that, if you've been the type who sleeps on a pretty reliable scheduel, you get tired around a given time at night, and wake naturally around the same time every morning. If you eat regularly, you probably get hungry around the same times every day. This, though, is also motion... notice the 'bio' factor. The body reprograms its hormonal cycles so that the body prepares for activities that happen at given intervals. Different processes happen in cycles... many in a linear fashion (one after the other). Thus, the body simply puts in a bit of chemical programming that says (let's use the 'getting tired at night' example) 'when this process happens, start slowing down the metabolism to prepare for resting'.
To finish off bashing the 'time sense' thing, has anyone ever had one of those days when you look at the clock, and are shocked to find that it's an hour or two off from what you expected it to be? Or, moreover, one of those weeks where you forget what day it is? I know I've had both of these things happen to me.
So, to wrap it up, time is not an element, at least not in a strict sense. It's a name we humans have given to something we observe... just like gravity. It doesn't need something to make it happen... it just ~happens~. We eat Apple Jacks. Get the picture?
No?
Pooie.

Zina · Post by **Zina** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 11:35 am

On 2002-03-15 00:47, Darthen Wulf wrote:
I do not agree when you say that Moon creates nothing: It creates Dreams. Can you imagine a world in which no one can dream? Gaaah!!! What a boring and definitely lifeless world!!!

I beg to differ. The moon does not create dreams. Our sub conscious(I know that isn't spelt right. Sue me.) does. the moon may influence things, but does not create. The moon is simply that. The moon. the idea of the Elements is that if one was not to exist, then the world would not, and there would be no propuse of the other elements. This is bended a little with soul. The Elements sustain life. They create the world, Soul puts creatures in it. This is the balance. Yes, there is a element missing from this balance...but...**whistles**
so, if we didn't have water...would a world exist? Probably not, seeing as water does several other things for an envioment other than providing an animal a drink. It is the same with wind, fire and earth. but if there wasn't a moon, would earth still be? Yes. What about a sun? Sure. Life can exist without sunlight. Time? Hmm...there's a tricky one...Time can also be thought of as reality. True, Elemental pointed out that time and reality might just exist because we say it does, but without it, would elements exist? Would the wind blow, if there isn't a reality for it to blow thru'? Would fire burn? fire must start and end eventually. Can it start without a time to start in? Nope. So, without Time, there would be no elements.

I think I've put up enough spoilers for one day.

_________________
<A HREF="http://zina.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Element's Song</A> -It's neat. And everyone likes neat things.
<A HREF="http://clad.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Cute Li'l Anti-Christ Daiji</A> -cute anti-Christ fun!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zina on 2002-03-15 15:37 ]</font>

Mr. Abyss · Post by **Mr. Abyss** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 2:08 pm

So elements are things that create right? Soooo would that make woman an element? Since they make peolpe. Or would the mind be an element since the mind creates ideas and what not. Or are you talking about things that create on a grand scale? Like.... stuff! I don't know. I'm prolly not even making sense. Their are lots of potential elements, and anti-elements. Whatever. This topic is hurting my head.

"'Is this legal?'
'I don't know. It's fun though!'"

Zina · Post by **Zina** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:36 pm

Women would fit under Soul, since Soul creates all life.
There are gods that were made from peoples. Without life these gods wouldn't exist. Those are the Creations. Think of them as man-made gods.

Elemental · Post by **Elemental** » Sat Mar 16, 2002 11:46 am

Waitasec... If elements are things that create, what the heck is fire doing there? I don't know about you, but I sure never saw fire create anything. True, fire ~changes~ things (into carbon, mostly), but it does not create. So there!

T1sfuzzy · Post by **T1sfuzzy** » Sat Mar 16, 2002 12:37 pm

well if fire dosn't create, neither dose wind, water, earth or soul. none of the elemnts create things directly they all need help from the others. for the easyiest exsample take a plant. it is mainly earth(grows in dirt) but it needs water to drink, air to breath, the sun(big fire ball) to grow, and a soul to live. it need all of the Elements to live and by using 3 of them it makes its own food. so no one element creates excatly they all need help from each other. and if im wrong Zina will tell us all.

Zina · Post by **Zina** » Sat Mar 16, 2002 3:31 pm

Nope, you're pretty much right. Each element plays a vital role in keeping everything in balance. If Fire wasn't there, for example, many other things wouldn't exist either. Of course, Fire needs all the other elements to truly create, as the other elements need Fire.

Osiris2 · Post by **Osiris2** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 2:27 am

WHOOOSHHHH!!!!
hovercraft full of eels and with a casket straped to the radio antenna whooshes past

***stunned silience***

Elemental · Post by **Elemental** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:22 am

So, in other words, the elements don't create... they're just the tools of creation.

Darthen Wulf · Post by **Darthen Wulf** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 1:17 am

Whooo!!! I don't think, while creating this topic, that we should end on a VERY philosophical debate!

*Giggle* I love that!!!

So Time... Here a little thing to make your head aches for a while: What for the aging process? It's an internal 'move', yes, but it marks the passage of time: We grew, passing from baby to child, to teenage, to adult, and so on. 'Time' in this process cannot really be denied as a mere 'Vue de l'esprit', it has a tangible existence... Well, in fact, we do not see 'Time' itself, but its consequences on body.

Personnal for Zina: We've been both misleaded, as you see Element's as creating actors of the reality. Me, I've seen 'Elements' as mere 'parts' of reality. That's why Sun, Moon, and so on, do not fit. Furthermore: The Elements I talked about were ANALOGIES, symbols to express a group of things. For example, analogies related to Fire are male, passions, trustworthiness, honesty, wildness, changes. These are symbols. This is an occult knowledge (Latin origin: 'Occulta', meaning 'What's is hidden'...).

Need another Delirium pill. Definitely...

Kenavo ar c'hentan!

Elemental · Post by **Elemental** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:02 am

Okay, like I said, there's the whole 'biological clock' thing...but that's just ~what we call it~. Humans put the concept together to explain what already exists. Time isn't a thing... it's like gravity. Just a name for what we observe. Our ~perception~ of time can change, but does that mean that time itself changes? I think not.

Devil's Advocate: "But if all we have is our perception of it, who's to say it really doesn't change?"

You shut up.

Andrick · Post by **Andrick** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 9:07 am

Actually, aging is being called a gentic disease now and several scientist think there will be a remedy in the next twenty years and a cure within the century.

As for time, if you can prove to me without a doubt that 200 years ago exists as a place then you will prove the existence of time. Note: no scientist currently claims such as of yet.

Just to make things scary, if time really existed in such a fashion than it does not only run backwards but forwards as well and all actions we will do have already been done. In other words our stories are already completed and we are just acting out what will be. You are what you will be, you do what you've already done, your actions are not spontaneous to what your life has been preordained to be.

Why does this remind me of the 'free will' argument?

Zina · Post by **Zina** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 7:43 pm

The Element's are tricky to define. Analogies of them, things they symbolise might help understand their personality as gods, but it doesn't explain what it is. Fire might be tempermental, aggrassive and passionate, but that isn't what Fire represents. Fire is simply Fire. As Wind is simply Wind. Nothing more, nothing less.

Time does only exist because we say, true. But, would the Elements exist if Time did not? I think not.

Andrick · Post by **Andrick** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 1:13 am

A tree falls down on the ground but noone is around to hear it, does it make a noise? This one question tells far more about how we perceive the world. Most people who see time as a fourth dimension also see sound as intrinsically existing. Most whom see sound existing only where there are people to interperit the percussive waves also see time as a variable pattern change which is measured.

If time is truly a dimension then can someone explain to me why it is widely accepted theory for time to 'slow down' for an object which speeds up? If this theory is true then time is not a fourth dimension but exist entirely inside the three dimensions that we interact with. Yet time has no weight, no mass, no length, no width, no velocity nor inertia so it does not exist in our three dimensions. I concede the floor to any takers...

Oh, Zina, without the impetous of time everything would still exist but it would be just that... still.