COMIC: The Adventures of Kanira Baxter

[Turnsky]

*stuff cut to save space*

oookaaay..

1). You posted on a forum filled with webcomic artists, you should have expected criticism of some sort from the get go, to expect any sort of adulation that you describe is nothing short of arrogance.
2). In some cases if the person who throws the word "talented" at you isn't capable of doing it themselves, they're easily impressed because of their own lack of skill, it's more a general compliment if somebody is genuinely capable of pulling off something well.
3). and yet, note their general grasp of human anatomy. and there's more sublime humor at work with XKCD, given it's more a "gag a day" then an actual graphic novel type scenario, which is what you're going for.. the problem is that you chose two comics that do not have a writing style that reflects what you're going for.
4). and you felt the need to repeat the lack of 'complaints' anywhere else but here... because? Look, post your work in a forum that's CGI-centric and you'd prolly get the exact same response you got here.
5). and no, i feel that we haven't missed the point of you making your comic in the first place, which is to tell a story, no? to weave a tale that enthralls others? what you're asking is "how's my writing?" and what you're getting is "well what we see is some problem in how you convey that writing, but here's where you may be able to fix that"
6). Again, it's -very hard- to constructively criticize writing with any degree of accuracy where one can pinpoint where it needs improvement, especially in a webcomic, where half the writing is also in the visual delivery as well. I could easily say that something seems off about the pacing, but i can't exactly put my finger on what, exactly.. truth be told the comic's writing isn't doing it for me, and i can't specifically tell you why.

[Hazardswake]

While I want to respond to your latest post about art, BionicDance, it seems like it'd be polite to give you what you want first, so here are my thoughts on your story.

Your pacing and dialog in the hijackers storyline is very nice. Things move quickly and you keep the action coming. The gunfight at the end gets slightly awkward, but it words, and the hostage's involvement is a nice touch. The story is a nice hook to get people into the comic. I don't think you needed the footnote about EBLE, though, as you'd explained the acyronym earlier. Readers should have already picked that up.

Interesting that Kanira's crew refer to her on a first-name basis. I guess being bounty-hunters is less formal than a normal outfit? That and it shows that the team is close.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20090725.html
The text in panel 2 of this comic is too squished together. It makes reading it awkward.

The second storyline, about the seemingly abandoned colony, starts slow and drags on. I suppose that's to increase the tension of "what on Earth could have happened here?" but it seems to go too long without anything interesting happening. That could just be my personal taste, though.

For bounty hunters, the group seems to be very straight-laced and by-the-book. For example, Kanira's quandary about the death of the hijacker makes her seem a little on the inexperienced sort, which is generally not the attitude I'd expect from a bounty hunter. Perhaps she's just started and it hasn't been revealed yet. While there is nothing wrong to have the attitude she has, the way Kanira expresses it makes her seem a bit naive. Dare talks a good game, but her actions don't seem to set her apart either. Of course, this, again, depends on the story-to-come.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20090927.html
The second-to-last panel's dialog feels forced. It's pretty obvious that Earth's not his home, and just mentioning it in that manner seems odd.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091004.html
You've got multiple instances of dual word balloons here with the words from one balloon running into the other. It's distracting. Though Zirtru's a good contrast to Kanira. Although, it does make one wonder why she's working for him at all.

The scene where Dare threatens Zirtru in the next page feels more than a little awkward. And Kanira's "Know what I mean" statement seems off, seeing as it seems there's no way in hell she'd kill him or let Dare kill him. The whole thing comes off as weak to me.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091011.html
Kanira is wrong; Dare is an awesome name. ...Fully my opinion.

It seems odd for Kanira to be wearing her uniform back at her parent's house. Then again, her parents seem to be wearing "generic skin-tight outfits of the future," too. All seems so formal.

I'm not sure I understand the significance of the parental visit. Are her parents at all important to the story? Page after page passes with her and Dare chewing the fat with them, but nothing really interesting comes up. They go to sleep, wake up, and Kanira has another few pages of the same sort of dialog with her mom. There's some exposition, but it still feels empty. I think a lot of it has to do with her parents not seeming to have much character. They aren't unique or interesting, so dialog between them becomes boring.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091115.html
We got to meet Kanira's classroom rival last page. And now Miss "Goody-Two-Shoes" Kanira seems to come off as a bit petty.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091122.html
Ah, so here's where her parent's will connect with the main story, I see. You should be wary of situations like in panel one. It's a mistake I often make, too. Too many words in one panel doesn't work well for comics. It stops being a comic for a moment and becomes a big old block of prose to read. If you break it up amoung many panels, it flows so much better.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091126.html
Now we've got Karina droning on and on about her goals and ideals. We've been spending a heck of a long time with talking heads and no space-action. Or action, peroid. Nothing of interest is happening. Scenes establishing who a character is are all well and good, but you've taken so much time to do so that the whole thing feels disjointed and distracting.

Overall, you've got some good elements of a story going, and that first part was awesome. After that, it slowly went downhill and then by the time we get to Earth, it really starts to drag. Hopefully it'll pick up again.

The characters feel somewhat bland, even Kanira herself. This is hard to get a good measure of, though, because we're still early on, but none of them really catch my interest.

You might want to consider adding a cast page in case the readers want a refresher on who's-who. Not a nessessity, but it'd be a nice touch.

Now that I've provided some review, I'd like to discuss your ideas on the art.

XKCD and Knights of the Dinner Table work because their art is neutral. There's not much to it, so while it doesn't catch the reader's eye, it's not off-putting either.

While I'm sure there are people who find your art "rad," you will unfortunately lose a lot of new readers who can't get past an effect called "Uncanny Valley," which occurs when certain realistic-looking mediums like CGI are crossed with very misplaced anatomy and, especially, facial structure.

In other words, while XKCD is "neutral," for many people your art goes into the negative. Rather than being blank, it's offputting, and many people won't even take the time to get into your story because the art is such a turn-off.

But you certainly have promise in the art department. A lot of the scenes are shot well visually, and your grasp of expressions works well at many points. You make really good use of the CGI for mechanical design and geography. The overall look is just a little hard to swallow.

I'm curious to see if you can take criticism at all, because back when I joined the discussion on page two, you were specifically asking for a non-anime comparison to your art. When I gave one, rather than continuing the discussion, you ignored it and just got upset that I would judge your art.

I look forward to being wrong about that and seeing you actually taking criticism instead of just getting upset.

[BionicDance]

While I want to respond to your latest post about art, BionicDance, it seems like it'd be polite to give you what you want first, so here are my thoughts on your story.

Thank you.

Your pacing and dialog in the hijackers storyline is very nice. Things move quickly and you keep the action coming. The gunfight at the end gets slightly awkward, but it words, and the hostage's involvement is a nice touch. The story is a nice hook to get people into the comic. I don't think you needed the footnote about EBLE, though, as you'd explained the acyronym earlier. Readers should have already picked that up.

Well, it's been my experience that people DO need to be prodded from time to time, need their memories jogged. I think I'd rather have the footnote for the folks who get confused than to leave them going, "Schadenwawa...?"
I mean, it's good that you didn't need it; I probably wouldn't have needed it either...but I'm sure there's someone out there going, "What did EBLE stand for agai--oh! There'z a footnote! Awesome!"

Interesting that Kanira's crew refer to her on a first-name basis. I guess being bounty-hunters is less formal than a normal outfit? That and it shows that the team is close.

Yes...if you think of this crew as being something akin to Han Solo and Chewbacca, or the crew of Serenity from Firefly, you won't be too far off. Those crews are pretty informal as well, and close-knit; they were the original model for the crew of the White Knight

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20090725.html
The text in panel 2 of this comic is too squished together. It makes reading it awkward.[/quote]

You're right...I was still learning; been trying to avoid that since then.
I've started putting the dialogue in FIRST, before I do anything more than mentally block out the panel in my head, then adjusting the panel size to fit, to avoid exactly this problem.

The second storyline, about the seemingly abandoned colony, starts slow and drags on. I suppose that's to increase the tension of "what on Earth could have happened here?" but it seems to go too long without anything interesting happening. That could just be my personal taste, though.

Well, possibly. The first mission was really meant more as an action-packed introduction to the characters and their situation, a hook to get people reading. The original premise of the comic is and always was to move in a space-exploration direction, a kind of Lara-Croft-meets-Star-Trek thing. I mean, I've gotten to the point now where I've explained Kanira's old dreams and her disillusionment, resulting in her move toward bounty-hunting...and now the Professor has made his offer to her, thus giving her a chance to follow that dream of hers. This is where I've always intended to take this comic; eventually, it'll be primarily about exploration, with somewhat less emphasis on bounty hunting and action.

For bounty hunters, the group seems to be very straight-laced and by-the-book. For example, Kanira's quandary about the death of the hijacker makes her seem a little on the inexperienced sort, which is generally not the attitude I'd expect from a bounty hunter.

This is, in fact, by design. When people think of bounty hunters, they tend to think of Boba Fett, of some scroffy, hard core mercenary type who might as well be a villain in and of themselves. Kanira makes reference to this here: http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20090718.html
Kanira really does see herself as doing the work of a superhero, helping the helpless, bringing criminals to justice; that's who she is...and her crew follows her lead for the most part. I mean, her ship IS called the White Knight. Straight-laced? By-the-book? If they're coming off that way, then I succeeded in my aims, even if it's confusing, even if it's defeating expectations of how bounty hunters should seem.

Perhaps she's just started and it hasn't been revealed yet. While there is nothing wrong to have the attitude she has, the way Kanira expresses it makes her seem a bit naive.

It's possible that she is, just a bit.

Dare talks a good game, but her actions don't seem to set her apart either. Of course, this, again, depends on the story-to-come.

I think, perhaps, there'z a slight difference of expectations here. Let me see if I can explain...
Owning it on DVD, I watched the deleted scenes from Pulp Fiction a while back. There'z this scene where Mia Wallace is interviewing Vincent Vega with a video camera before they leave for Jack Rabbit Slims; in it, she asks him if he's an Elvis man or a Beatles man. She says that you can divide the world up into Elvis people and Beatles people, which tells you a lot about the person. This is why, when they pull up to Jack Rabbit Slims, she tells him that an Elvis man should love it; they'd concluded in that scene that Vincent is an Elvis man.
Watching that, I came up with my own similar comparison: you can divide the world up into Superman people and Batman people. Oh, I don't mean that they're fans of those actual comics (or movies, if you're not a comics reader), it's possible they've never even heard of those characters; this is more about an expectation with regards to your fiction than about Supes and Bats themselves. It's that they like their heroes and their fiction to have a certain vibe.
Batman people seem to dig the dark, angsty, grim types of characters and worlds, very gothic at least in feel. They like their heroes damaged in some way that makes them hard and cold, they want their quest for justice to be tinged with tragedy or not quite done for its own sake. Superman people are the opposite end of the spectrum; they like their heroes upstanding and stalwart, doing what they do on principle and not because they're driven to it by their dark past. Superman people prefer their fiction to be bright and generally happy, even despite the quite horrible things done by the villains.

I...am dyed-in-the-wool Superman people. And that's where Kanira Baxter is coming from as a comic, and where Kanira Baxter is coming from as a character. Dare is about as close to a Batman-style hero as you're probably going to get in my comic, and she's barely even Han Solo on the Superman-Batman spectrum. But the fact that you prefer her over Kanira leads me to hazard a guess that you're probably Batman people... tell me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I'm getting.
In the last, oh, call it fifteen to twenty years, fiction--especially in movies and TV--has marched quite steadily in the Batman direction, much to my dismay; Kanira Baxter is, for me, something of a push-back against that. I miss Superman-aligned fiction quite terribly (though the new Star Trek movie was an absolute delight in that regard; JJ Abrams is even quoted as saying that "realistic" isn't the same thing as "dark", which made me swoon) and at least a portion of my comic is doing my part to get back to what I would like to see in fiction...

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20090927.html
The second-to-last panel's dialog feels forced. It's pretty obvious that Earth's not his home, and just mentioning it in that manner seems odd.

Hrm. IS it obvious that Earth isn't his home?
Obvious that it isn't the origin of his species, yes...but what's to prevent him from having made Earth his home? Goodness knows that there are many Myanai who have made Earth their home. I even reference that in an upcoming page...
Anyway, he says it in the same way I'd say, "Well, Hawaii isn't my home, but MAN, do I love it there!", kind of implying that I wish it were my home at times. Heck, I thought about moving there earlier this year, in fact.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091004.html
You've got multiple instances of dual word balloons here with the words from one balloon running into the other. It's distracting.

Yes, you're right; I've been trying to avoid that more and more lately...been setting up the dialogue ahead of time, measuring the panel size, adjusting the shot to fit in the 3D software. Like I said above. No worries.

Though Zirtru's a good contrast to Kanira. Although, it does make one wonder why she's working for him at all.

It's because Kanira is unique among bounty hunters. Again, she makes reference to that here: http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20090718.html
Most bounty hunters AND their agents fit the seedy stereotype you're expecting, but Kanira sees herself as the stalwart hero, saving people from danger and bringing criminals to justice...but being unique, she really has no choice but to deal with the seedy elements for her contracts. That's what Zirtru chastises her for, why he tries to "teach her a lesson"; he thinks Kanira is being childishly idealistic by not taking some of the more shady contracts, by not being a Boba Fett who'll do anything for money.

The scene where Dare threatens Zirtru in the next page feels more than a little awkward. And Kanira's "Know what I mean" statement seems off, seeing as it seems there's no way in hell she'd kill him or let Dare kill him. The whole thing comes off as weak to me.

Which, again, is the point; it's supposed to be awkward. Zirtru even calls her on it: http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091006.html
it's right there, fourth panel; he's all, "Yeah, yeah... "
He says, "Very intimidating, Baxter, but I know you too well to be threatened by you, do-gooder." He's actually referencing the fact that Kanira's Superman people, and her trying to be Batman people to intimidate Zirtru just fell flat on its face.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091011.html
Kanira is wrong; Dare is an awesome name. ...Fully my opinion.

Oh, Kanira's not saying it's bad...she's saying it's unusual and weird.
I actually knew someone named "Dare" a long time ago; I was about eight and I was taking Judo classes and there was someone--a guy, actually--named Dare. I remember thinking it was pretty awesome, to be honest...but by no means is it normal. Heh.
Not that I'm one to talk; I was raised by hippies and came within inches of being named "Moonbeam", or something similarly atrocious. As it was, sanity prevailed in the end, and I barely got away with the middle name "Halley", like the comet.

It seems odd for Kanira to be wearing her uniform back at her parent's house. Then again, her parents seem to be wearing "generic skin-tight outfits of the future," too. All seems so formal.

It's that kind of future. Heck, what Kanira's wearing isn't, technically speaking, a uniform...it's just clothing. That's how people dress in the Kaniraverse; it's all skin-tight jumpsuits with stylized planets, comets, and atoms on 'em. I'm going for that "pulp" look, kind of Jetsons-like in its old-school sensibilities. I'm on an LJ group called "retro_futurism", and you wouldn't believe some of the outfits people used to think we'd be wearing in the future; I have folders and folders full of reference art.

I'm not sure I understand the significance of the parental visit. Are her parents at all important to the story?

Eventually, yes. Have you ever watched Babylon 5? That show introduced elements in the first season that didn't pay off until the fourth or fifth; I'm kind of following that model just a bit. You've already encountered things that will become significant later, know it or not...

Page after page passes with her and Dare chewing the fat with them, but nothing really interesting comes up. They go to sleep, wake up, and Kanira has another few pages of the same sort of dialog with her mom. There's some exposition, but it still feels empty.

Hrm. Empty of what, though? I mean, you do learn a few things about Kanira, about where she came from, about who she is, about who her parents are and how their parenting shaped Kanira. You learn about the EBSE, about the Dawkins-class ships her parents are going out on, what it's like on an ESBSE ship in exploration mode, about setting up the meeting with Professor von Lingermeyer, about Kanira's attitude toward science...
To me, that's pretty interesting...I wonder which expectations of yours I was defeating by spending some time to show Kanira's origins.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091115.html
We got to meet Kanira's classroom rival last page. And now Miss "Goody-Two-Shoes" Kanira seems to come off as a bit petty.

Which she actually SAYS. Panel 3: "And maybe it makes me the villain here, but after the amount of time she's spent making my life unpleasant, I'm mildly tickled knowing that she's ended up so pathetic." And in the next page she says that she wishes Olivia and her could have just gotten along from the beginning. Believe me, Kanira--and I--are fully aware of your criticism, have taken it to heart; it causes Kanira's conscience some small measure of pain.

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091122.html
Ah, so here's where her parent's will connect with the main story, I see.

Well, not on that page specifically, but yes.

You should be wary of situations like in panel one. It's a mistake I often make, too. Too many words in one panel doesn't work well for comics. It stops being a comic for a moment and becomes a big old block of prose to read. If you break it up amoung many panels, it flows so much better.

Hrm...have you ever read Strangers in Paradise? Amazing comic in my never-humble opinion.
Well, Terry Moore sometimes does several pages of out-and-out prose right in the middle of the comic, no images at all...and people loved him for it. When you have a lot to say, especially if it's largely emotion-neutral, I'm not really sure how breaking it up would help much. The exposition here is utterly necessary, it's the eventual basis for the rest of the story; I felt I needed to get it TOLD, rather than taking up an extra page or two...

http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/d/20091126.html
Now we've got Karina droning on and on about her goals and ideals. We've been spending a heck of a long time with talking heads and no space-action. Or action, peroid. Nothing of interest is happening. Scenes establishing who a character is are all well and good, but you've taken so much time to do so that the whole thing feels disjointed and distracting.

I'm wondering whether that's a matter a taste. Sci-Fi isn't necessarily all action and laser guns, yanno; have you read much science fiction? Some of my favorite sci-fi hasn't a single shot fired ever. Anyway, there'll be some of that, for sure, but the pages that you find boring are actually VERY important in terms of where this is all headed.
This exposition wasn't just setting up the characters, it was setting up the science bounties...and introducing Kanira's parents, who DO ultimately have a role to play that's very important.
Anyway, only a few more pages before Kanira rejoins the rest of the crew and they go off on another mission.

Overall, you've got some good elements of a story going, and that first part was awesome. After that, it slowly went downhill and then by the time we get to Earth, it really starts to drag. Hopefully it'll pick up again.

This is why I think your criticism may be more a matter of taste than anything else; Kanira Baxter is going to get a smidge more cerebral over time, rather than action-packed. There'll be action, for sure, but ultimately my intention has always been to head in a more Star Trek direction, where science gets in the driver's seat, where exploration is the goal. I've always wanted desperately to like Star Trek, but for various reasons I just couldn't bring myself to do so (hint: it's mostly Shatner's fault). Since nobody seemed inclined to make what I wanted to see, I decided to do my own exploration-based sci-fi...which is what Kanira Baxter is destined to become.
Granted, yes, there'll be a bit more Star Wars in my Star Trek--I grew up on Star Wars; do you want to see the tattoo?--but action was never the major focus...

The characters feel somewhat bland, even Kanira herself. This is hard to get a good measure of, though, because we're still early on, but none of them really catch my interest. You might want to consider adding a cast page in case the readers want a refresher on who's-who. Not a nessessity, but it'd be a nice touch.

It exists: http://cgwiki.comicgenesis.com/index.ph ... ira_Baxter
You're welcome.

I'm curious to see if you can take criticism at all, because back when I joined the discussion on page two, you were specifically asking for a non-anime comparison to your art. When I gave one, rather than continuing the discussion, you ignored it and just got upset that I would judge your art.

Actually, I'm just sick of discussing it. I've heard the criticisms, but I simply can't relate, can't empathize, with what others are seeing. I'm not struck by the characters in the same way, and I even like some of the elements people are demanding I change. I actually quite like the large eyes, in fact; there are certain places where I find myself going, "Coooool...!"
Like this, for example:



For me, that really works. I'm just plain not seeing the problem others are...I'm seeing the departure from real life that they're seeing, but I'm not having the same negative visceral reaction. I'm just not. If anything, I might be having the opposite reaction; I could fall into eyes like that, all huge and expressive. Maybe I'm warped, I d'know, but...I just don't see the problem.

I look forward to you proving me wrong.

I HAVE taken criticism. Hell, in this last message alone, you've mentioned a few things where I've flat-out agreed that, yes, they need work. Some of them I've already noted all on my own and have started taking steps to correct them in the future. And there've been a few others early on in this thread where I said the same yeah-I-need-to-work-on-that thing.
It's just that when people here were basically told, "No, I like 'em just fine, they ain't changin'," on the eyes issue, instead of going, "Okay, fine; up to you," they pushed harder and harder, like my saying no was an affront or something. And when that's ALL anybody would talk about, I just started getting really really frustrated and annoyed. Interestingly enough, this comic is NOT called The Eyes of Kanira Baxter, it's called The ADVENTURES of Kanira Baxter...I'm just sayin'.

[Hazardswake]

I think, perhaps, there'z a slight difference of expectations here. Let me see if I can explain...
Owning it on DVD, I watched the deleted scenes from Pulp Fiction a while back. There'z this scene where Mia Wallace is interviewing Vincent Vega with a video camera before they leave for Jack Rabbit Slims; in it, she asks him if he's an Elvis man or a Beatles man. She says that you can divide the world up into Elvis people and Beatles people, which tells you a lot about the person. This is why, when they pull up to Jack Rabbit Slims, she tells him that an Elvis man should love it; they'd concluded in that scene that Vincent is an Elvis man.
Watching that, I came up with my own similar comparison: you can divide the world up into Superman people and Batman people. Oh, I don't mean that they're fans of those actual comics (or movies, if you're not a comics reader), it's possible they've never even heard of those characters; this is more about an expectation with regards to your fiction than about Supes and Bats themselves. It's that they like their heroes and their fiction to have a certain vibe.
Batman people seem to dig the dark, angsty, grim types of characters and worlds, very gothic at least in feel. They like their heroes damaged in some way that makes them hard and cold, they want their quest for justice to be tinged with tragedy or not quite done for its own sake. Superman people are the opposite end of the spectrum; they like their heroes upstanding and stalwart, doing what they do on principle and not because they're driven to it by their dark past. Superman people prefer their fiction to be bright and generally happy, even despite the quite horrible things done by the villains.

I...am dyed-in-the-wool Superman people. And that's where Kanira Baxter is coming from as a comic, and where Kanira Baxter is coming from as a character. Dare is about as close to a Batman-style hero as you're probably going to get in my comic, and she's barely even Han Solo on the Superman-Batman spectrum. But the fact that you prefer her over Kanira leads me to hazard a guess that you're probably Batman people... tell me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I'm getting.
In the last, oh, call it fifteen to twenty years, fiction--especially in movies and TV--has marched quite steadily in the Batman direction, much to my dismay; Kanira Baxter is, for me, something of a push-back against that. I miss Superman-aligned fiction quite terribly (though the new Star Trek movie was an absolute delight in that regard; JJ Abrams is even quoted as saying that "realistic" isn't the same thing as "dark", which made me swoon) and at least a portion of my comic is doing my part to get back to what I would like to see in fiction...

My only preference in Dare is that her personality is more interesting. Both archetypes are fun. But Dare's character has a kick to her that makes her seem more real.

Hrm. IS it obvious that Earth isn't his home?
Obvious that it isn't the origin of his species, yes...but what's to prevent him from having made Earth his home? Goodness knows that there are many Myanai who have made Earth their home. I even reference that in an upcoming page...
Anyway, he says it in the same way I'd say, "Well, Hawaii isn't my home, but MAN, do I love it there!", kind of implying that I wish it were my home at times. Heck, I thought about moving there earlier this year, in fact.

It's not obvious to the reader but I think his own crew members would already know where he lives. The way he says it seems forced to me. But, as you've mentioned, seeing that these are all just my opinions, it may just be a matter of taste.

It's that kind of future. Heck, what Kanira's wearing isn't, technically speaking, a uniform...it's just clothing. That's how people dress in the Kaniraverse; it's all skin-tight jumpsuits with stylized planets, comets, and atoms on 'em. I'm going for that "pulp" look, kind of Jetsons-like in its old-school sensibilities. I'm on an LJ group called "retro_futurism", and you wouldn't believe some of the outfits people used to think we'd be wearing in the future; I have folders and folders full of reference art.

Okay, gotcha. That makes sense.

Hrm. Empty of what, though? I mean, you do learn a few things about Kanira, about where she came from, about who she is, about who her parents are and how their parenting shaped Kanira. You learn about the EBSE, about the Dawkins-class ships her parents are going out on, what it's like on an ESBSE ship in exploration mode, about setting up the meeting with Professor von Lingermeyer, about Kanira's attitude toward science...
To me, that's pretty interesting...I wonder which expectations of yours I was defeating by spending some time to show Kanira's origins.

As I thought about it, I realized that the visit home itself wasn't the problem, as I incorrectly jumped to in my last post. It's more that there's not enough to the characters of her mother and father to be interesting. They come off as boring, cookie-cutter parent characters.

Which she actually SAYS. Panel 3: "And maybe it makes me the villain here, but after the amount of time she's spent making my life unpleasant, I'm mildly tickled knowing that she's ended up so pathetic." And in the next page she says that she wishes Olivia and her could have just gotten along from the beginning. Believe me, Kanira--and I--are fully aware of your criticism, have taken it to heart; it causes Kanira's conscience some small measure of pain.

Believe me, I caught the self-reference. It still makes her seem petty. But I've got to agree that as I think of it, it does make her character more interesting.

Hrm...have you ever read Strangers in Paradise? Amazing comic in my never-humble opinion.
Well, Terry Moore sometimes does several pages of out-and-out prose right in the middle of the comic, no images at all...and people loved him for it. When you have a lot to say, especially if it's largely emotion-neutral, I'm not really sure how breaking it up would help much. The exposition here is utterly necessary, it's the eventual basis for the rest of the story; I felt I needed to get it TOLD, rather than taking up an extra page or two...

No, I have not, but this isn't the first time I've been recommended the comic, so I really should give it a read. In that case, it's another instance of personal preference. I personally find big blocks of text off-putting.

I'm wondering whether that's a matter a taste. Sci-Fi isn't necessarily all action and laser guns, yanno; have you read much science fiction? Some of my favorite sci-fi hasn't a single shot fired ever. Anyway, there'll be some of that, for sure, but the pages that you find boring are actually VERY important in terms of where this is all headed.
This exposition wasn't just setting up the characters, it was setting up the science bounties...and introducing Kanira's parents, who DO ultimately have a role to play that's very important.
Anyway, only a few more pages before Kanira rejoins the rest of the crew and they go off on another mission.

Perhaps, but, much like the instance with her parents, I found it difficult to get into the characters, and thus the story dragged more for me. Again, that's just me.

This is why I think your criticism may be more a matter of taste than anything else; Kanira Baxter is going to get a smidge more cerebral over time, rather than action-packed. There'll be action, for sure, but ultimately my intention has always been to head in a more Star Trek direction, where science gets in the driver's seat, where exploration is the goal. I've always wanted desperately to like Star Trek, but for various reasons I just couldn't bring myself to do so (hint: it's mostly Shatner's fault). Since nobody seemed inclined to make what I wanted to see, I decided to do my own exploration-based sci-fi...which is what Kanira Baxter is destined to become.
Granted, yes, there'll be a bit more Star Wars in my Star Trek--I grew up on Star Wars; do you want to see the tattoo?--but action was never the major focus...

Indeed, but there was always something going on that was interesting, in both Trek and Wars: interesting characters. You've mentioned Captain Kirk, Jean-Luc Picard, Malcom Reynolds... They all have great personalities, quirks and dialog that pulls you in. I don't see that here. I'm very much a Characters person, and if the characters aren't interesting, then I can't get in to it. ...Which is probably, again, just a matter of taste.

It exists: http://cgwiki.comicgenesis.com/index.ph ... ira_Baxter
You're welcome.

It really should be on the front page, shouldn't it, or how else will the readers find it? If it is there, I couldn't find it.

Actually, I'm just sick of discussing it. I've heard the criticisms, but I simply can't relate, can't empathize, with what others are seeing. I'm not struck by the characters in the same way, and I even like some of the elements people are demanding I change.

Very well, I'll drop that, then.

I HAVE taken criticism. Hell, in this last message alone, you've mentioned a few things where I've flat-out agreed that, yes, they need work. Some of them I've already noted all on my own and have started taking steps to correct them in the future. And there've been a few others early on in this thread where I said the same yeah-I-need-to-work-on-that thing.
It's just that when people here were basically told, "No, I like 'em just fine, they ain't changin'," on the eyes issue, instead of going, "Okay, fine; up to you," they pushed harder and harder, like my saying no was an affront or something. And when that's ALL anybody would talk about, I just started getting really really frustrated and annoyed. Interestingly enough, this comic is NOT called The Eyes of Kanira Baxter, it's called The ADVENTURES of Kanira Baxter...I'm just sayin'.

Yes. Well, you really shouldn't be surprised that you've managed to garner negative response, coming into a forum for webcomic artists and authors with the attitude that "Art is to a comic as a plate is to a gormet meal." It's extremely insulting. A lot of people, including myself, have worked years to improve their art, and your constant cries of "You cannot judge art just take it like it is" is bound to be poor-received in a community where people are actively trying to improve.

[Darkdetective]

You know, now that I think about it, I really didn't like the designs for Spectacular Spider-man, but I still tuned in for the story (It's freaking made by Greg Weisman, creator of Gargoyles! How could you not?) Eventually though, I grew to appreciate the art style as well. Although no matter how many times I see this, I don't think I'll ever get used to it. That baby just freaks me out. That's one of my problems with CG. (I already stated I'm not to hot about GC, even if I did make this some years ago.) Its all too easy to enter the Uncanny Valley.

[BionicDance]

My only preference in Dare is that her personality is more interesting. Both archetypes are fun. But Dare's character has a kick to her that makes her seem more real.

Perhaps, but...I'm still of the opinion that the reason she has that kick is because of the Superman-Batman Spectrum and where she falls on it.

It's not obvious to the reader but I think his own crew members would already know where he lives. The way he says it seems forced to me. But, as you've mentioned, seeing that these are all just my opinions, it may just be a matter of taste.

Perhaps.

I have to admit, there have been times when I've gotten into arguments with people over text-versus-speech; there've been things I've said that should[/i[ have been taken as completely innocent and probably would have been taken as completely innocent had they been spoken, but which came off as deeply obnoxious in text. I've been sorely tempted to go so far as to ask people to record how they THINK I'm saying something and post it online while I'd do the same and we'd compare. I've had friends on my LJ, people I know in real life, tell me that they can hear my voice as they read my entries, that more than anyone else they know, my LJ entries sound like me. Yet the exact same words posted to a webboard where nobody has ever heard me speak aloud often get a negative response where my RL peeps totally grok correctly.

So...part of me is tempted to record how Meglen would say that line and see if it still sounds forced when spoken...

As I thought about it, I realized that the visit home itself wasn't the problem, as I incorrectly jumped to in my last post. It's more that there's not enough to the characters of her mother and father to be interesting. They come off as boring, cookie-cutter parent characters.

Huh. Weird.
I mean, that they get into spaceships and go study the galaxy isn't interesting? Truly? I'd think it takes a certain type of person to do that...

Believe me, I caught the self-reference. It still makes her seem petty. But I've got to agree that as I think of it, it does make her character more interesting.

Well, she's certainly not perfect. As you say, that's probably a benefit.

No, I have not, but this isn't the first time I've been recommended the comic, so I really should give it a read. In that case, it's another instance of personal preference. I personally find big blocks of text off-putting.

Well...I may have an incorrect impression of your tastes, but there'z a chance you might not like SiP ultimately. I think it's great, a lot of folks think it's great, but it's surely not for everybody; I have some friends who are big ol' caped-crusader types when it comes to what they want to read in a comic, and they'd find SiP terribly dull, I'm sure; it's like a really twisted primetime soap opera in many ways.

Perhaps, but, much like the instance with her parents, I found it difficult to get into the characters, and thus the story dragged more for me. Again, that's just me.

It's possible that you're not my target audience.

Indeed, but there was always something going on that was interesting, in both Trek and Wars: interesting characters. You've mentioned Captain Kirk, Jean-Luc Picard, Malcom Reynolds... They all have great personalities, quirks and dialog that pulls you in. I don't see that here. I'm very much a Characters person, and if the characters aren't interesting, then I can't get in to it. ...Which is probably, again, just a matter of taste.

Well, but I find these kinds of characters quite interesting, myself. And, frankly, I don't see enough of 'em.

It really should be on the front page, shouldn't it, or how else will the readers find it? If it is there, I couldn't find it.

You have a point, and I admit I've been meaning to clean up the front page of the comic for a while now; I've gotten my first bit of fan art (flattering as hell, I must say!), thus demanding its own section, there'z the Wiki...you have a point. In my defense, I've been pretty busy and my mouse broke a few days ago so I fell behind for a bit while acquiring a new one...but you still have a point there.

Yes. Well, you really shouldn't be surprised that you've managed to garner negative response, coming into a forum for webcomic artists and authors with the attitude that "Art is to a comic as a plate is to a gormet meal."

Well, I come from the position of "a special effect without a story is a very boring thing". (Ironically, given how people think of him now, but it was George Lucas who said that, back in the 80s...) I've seen quite a few comics here where, frankly, the art is complete drek. Hell, one of my absolutely-most favoritest webcomics ever is one I initially read despite the art (which has improved a lot since then) because the story was good.
I know I can improve what I've got, but I also know that what I've got is not NEARLY as bad as some of you are trying to imply (*cough*Mercury Hat*cough*). But I ALSO know that some of the critiques truly ARE a matter of taste rather than the mistakes they're being regarded as. Goodness knows that there is a double-wide buttload of leeway and wiggle room in art...if you've ever seen Aeon Flux, you've seen some of the crazy extremes to which art can go, but which people will still accept. By all rights, the proportions in Aeon Flux are quiet deeply out of whack...but that just happens to be the style.

It's extremely insulting. A lot of people, including myself, have worked years to improve their art, and your constant cries of "You cannot judge art just take it like it is" is bound to be poor-received in a community where people are actively trying to improve.

But first you have to convince me that it truly is an error or a problem. "Improve" is a subjective, relative measure; if I simply don't see something as a mistake or an error, even if you do, by what reason or right do you call your position the correct one?
I've seen many styles of art that make me go "Bleah!", but that doesn't change the fact that they're precisely what the artist intended and that somebody, somewhere, said, "Yes...that's what I'm after." More power to 'em, I say!
There are DEFINITELY places where I want to improve my art...specifically because I see a deficiency. But whether you see it or not, whether you realize it or not, you lot have been getting on my case because I don't see the same deficiency that you do, and not because I don't want to "improve". I look at my characters and, for the most part, I go, "Yup! That's what I intended!" Maybe you don't like it, but trying to tell me that I made a mistake is simply not the case.

You know, now that I think about it, I really didn't like the designs for Spectacular Spider-man, but I still tuned in for the story (It's freaking made by Greg Weisman, creator of Gargoyles! How could you not?)

Oh, goodness, I see what you mean. I'm not a huge fan of that style either. It's very...hrm..."Batman: The Animated Series" meets "Kim Possible", innit? I'm not a fan either.
But, as you say, I could get into it anyway if I dug the story...

Although no matter how many times I see this, I don't think I'll ever get used to it. That baby just freaks me out.

Well, yes...that baby is butt-ugly. I think they made up for it with Boo in Monsters, Inc., tho...

[Hazardswake]

Indeed, but there was always something going on that was interesting, in both Trek and Wars: interesting characters. You've mentioned Captain Kirk, Jean-Luc Picard, Malcom Reynolds... They all have great personalities, quirks and dialog that pulls you in. I don't see that here. I'm very much a Characters person, and if the characters aren't interesting, then I can't get in to it. ...Which is probably, again, just a matter of taste.

Well, but I find these kinds of characters quite interesting, myself. And, frankly, I don't see enough of 'em.

I think you misunderstand. Or maybe I do. But to clear things up, I'm saying that Captain Kirk, Jean-Luc Picard, and Malcom Reynolds have interesting quirks, personalities, and characters, while I see nothing of the sort in any of your characters. Yes, they have beliefs, ideals, and goals, but there's nothing more. No wit, no edge, no snappy dialog. No interesting mannerisms.

Yes. Well, you really shouldn't be surprised that you've managed to garner negative response, coming into a forum for webcomic artists and authors with the attitude that "Art is to a comic as a plate is to a gormet meal."

Well, I come from the position of "a special effect without a story is a very boring thing". (Ironically, given how people think of him now, but it was George Lucas who said that, back in the 80s...) I've seen quite a few comics here where, frankly, the art is complete drek. Hell, one of my absolutely-most favoritest webcomics ever is one I initially read despite the art (which has improved a lot since then) because the story was good.
I know I can improve what I've got, but I also know that what I've got is not NEARLY as bad as some of you are trying to imply (*cough*Mercury Hat*cough*). But I ALSO know that some of the critiques truly ARE a matter of taste rather than the mistakes they're being regarded as. Goodness knows that there is a double-wide buttload of leeway and wiggle room in art...if you've ever seen Aeon Flux, you've seen some of the crazy extremes to which art can go, but which people will still accept. By all rights, the proportions in Aeon Flux are quiet deeply out of whack...but that just happens to be the style.

The artist of Aeon Flux knew the rules before breaking them, and it shows. There's a big difference between stretching the rules and ignoring them.

It's extremely insulting. A lot of people, including myself, have worked years to improve their art, and your constant cries of "You cannot judge art just take it like it is" is bound to be poor-received in a community where people are actively trying to improve.

But first you have to convince me that it truly is an error or a problem. "Improve" is a subjective, relative measure; if I simply don't see something as a mistake or an error, even if you do, by what reason or right do you call your position the correct one?
I've seen many styles of art that make me go "Bleah!", but that doesn't change the fact that they're precisely what the artist intended and that somebody, somewhere, said, "Yes...that's what I'm after." More power to 'em, I say!
There are DEFINITELY places where I want to improve my art...specifically because I see a deficiency. But whether you see it or not, whether you realize it or not, you lot have been getting on my case because I don't see the same deficiency that you do, and not because I don't want to "improve". I look at my characters and, for the most part, I go, "Yup! That's what I intended!" Maybe you don't like it, but trying to tell me that I made a mistake is simply not the case.

You may not think it's a "mistake," and I'm not arguing that point. You are free to go on making comics they way you have, and I'll have no problem. (Not that you even need my permission, of course).

The insulting part is NOT that you disagree. It's, again, this attitude of "Words make the comic and the art isn't important." Most artists view that their work, contrary to how you view yours, will never be perfect, but they want to keep improving anyway. Even if they have a style that seems very unrealistic, they're always striving to make it better while still keeping it in their style.

I'd think you'd understand. Maybe not about art, but at least with writing. Don't you feel that improving your writing is a good thing? Even if everyone loves it, things can always be polished and improved. Do you place your writing on that same pedestal of NO DISAGREEING, IT IS PERFECT that you hold your art to?

It's your arrogance that upsets people. If you said, "I respect your opinion, and feel free to keep working on your stuff, but I like my stuff the way it is," it'd be fine. But that's not what you're doing.

[BionicDance]

I think you misunderstand. Or maybe I do. But to clear things up, I'm saying that Captain Kirk, Jean-Luc Picard, and Malcom Reynolds have interesting quirks, personalities, and characters, while I see nothing of the sort in any of your characters. Yes, they have beliefs, ideals, and goals, but there's nothing more. No wit, no edge, no snappy dialog. No interesting mannerisms.

If you say so... it's possible, I suppose, that I'm being too subtle, but they've GOT personality quirks. Kanira's the upstanding one, Dare's the irreverent smart ass, Meglen's the fun-loving childlike one...I admit, I haven't found many opportunities for Jonas to be who he is, but he does have a personality in my head...

The artist of Aeon Flux knew the rules before breaking them, and it shows. There's a big difference between stretching the rules and ignoring them.

And you clearly think that I don't know the rules, and that I'm ignoring them and not just stretching them.

...why?

Hell, if I didn't know the rules, could I point out where they've been broken by Aeon Flux? Wouldn't I just be going, "Yeeecch!" or "Weird!" looking at that, if I didn't know the rules?
Maybe you don't like HOW I've broken them, but that doesn't imply ignorance of them on my part.

You may not think it's a "mistake," and I'm not arguing that point. You are free to go on making comics they way you have, and I'll have no problem. (Not that you even need my permission, of course).

The insulting part is NOT that you disagree. It's, again, this attitude of "Words make the comic and the art isn't important."

Which isn't ACTUALLY my attitude; it only seems that way because of the direction this conversation has been shoved.
Yes, it's true, I care MORE about telling a story than about the art; this is a story that's been brewing in my head for ages...and when I finally start getting it out there, nobody seems to give a flying fornication, focusing instead on other things. if you think for a moment that I'm just going to take that lying down...well, obviously, time to think again. This is as much the fault of the critics as it is my own; had the criticism been just a bit more balanced instead of so lock-focused, you might not have such a skewed idea of my attitude because I wouldn't be forced into a position of having to fight just to get the parts I care about most even discussed.

Like I said before with those analogies, it's like you make a nice meal and someone kvetches about the silverware or the color of the gravy without ever telling you how the damn thing tastes; if you don't see how that could be quite deeply disappointing for the cook, well...

And no, I story isn't JUST told with words in a comic; Kanira Baxter would be nothing without frames like this one:



Obviously there'z more to that than just the dialogue; to tell that same panel in prose might take anywhere from three to seven sentences, depending on how descriptive one might want to be.

But the simple fact is that Kanira Baxter would be even less if it weren't for the story; I'd have no reason to do this project at all if it weren't for the story I want to tell...the story which everybody and the frickin' HAMSTER ignored in favor of talking about how much they don't like my characters' eyes.
Now...do you see for even a MOMENT how I might not be particularly receptive to that? How I might see this as missing the forest for the trees? How, after being basically badgered about it for most of a page, how after gently asking for a story critique multiple times and barely being even noticed, that I MIGHT just reach boiling point after a while? Hmm?

Most artists view that their work, contrary to how you view yours, will never be perfect, but they want to keep improving anyway. Even if they have a style that seems very unrealistic, they're always striving to make it better while still keeping it in their style.

But that's just it...to make my art "good" in the eyes of the critics here, I'd have to completely CHANGE my style. I see what people are pointing out, but I DON'T see it as a problem, as A Bad Thing™. We happen to disagree on what "good" means in the first place, so how can there ever be consensus?

It's your arrogance that upsets people. If you said, "I respect your opinion, and feel free to keep working on your stuff, but I like my stuff the way it is," it'd be fine. But that's not what you're doing.

What are you talking about? That's EXACTLY what I'm doing.

[Mercury Hat]

I know I can improve what I've got, but I also know that what I've got is not NEARLY as bad as some of you are trying to imply (*cough*Mercury Hat*cough*). But I ALSO know that some of the critiques truly ARE a matter of taste rather than the mistakes they're being regarded as. Goodness knows that there is a double-wide buttload of leeway and wiggle room in art...if you've ever seen Aeon Flux, you've seen some of the crazy extremes to which art can go, but which people will still accept. By all rights, the proportions in Aeon Flux are quiet deeply out of whack...but that just happens to be the style.

Hahahahahahahaha.

If you can't see the difference between how you and Peter Chung approach art, then you shouldn't be talking about style at all. (Hint, it's that Peter Chung can draw human beings, not just emaciated assassins.)

[Alias Pseudonym]

Actually in prose I would probably write that entire panel as 'ZAM!' But I am kind of a minimalist.

I'd like to take this opportunity to share a rule of characterization I've developed for myself. The rule is, all that you need to do to make an audience identify with a character is prove that that character is human. This can mean a small fault or quirk, a relationship, an aspiration, but it has to be an effective proof of humanity (or in some cases giant talking rat-ness.) By that scale, a lot of your cast needs more character. Kanira does have some stuff (relationship with parents, spite for annoying people, aspirations) but none of it is hugely convincing and considering she is the title character she is still underdeveloped. I can't remember anything about any of her crew other than Dare and the rat, which is bad news for the others. Dare is actually probably the best developed of your cast, simply because her viewpoint is different enough from Kanira's to make her really stand out rather than blend in. Kanira's parents have essentially no development at all. All we really know is that they are scientists, they work in space and are going on this mission thing, and they don't like violence.

(In case anyone's wondering, I came up with that theory since I started watching the anime Monster (not finished watching it yet), particularly one scene that developed a thief we didn't know very well into a compelling character in literally a single scene by recounting a story about a clock the thief always wanted when he was a boy.)

Finally, I've got to say, in terms of art you have been given a whole bunch of suggestions that don't involve making the eyes less prominent. Try some. Put more space between the eyes, increase the width of the head as seen from the front, maybe fine-tune the shape of the eyes to get more expression out of them. You can say you don't like it and stay with what you have if you want but it would be nice to at least respond to the criticism in some way.

[Hazardswake]

Finally, I've got to say, in terms of art you have been given a whole bunch of suggestions that don't involve making the eyes less prominent. Try some. Put more space between the eyes, increase the width of the head as seen from the front, maybe fine-tune the shape of the eyes to get more expression out of them. You can say you don't like it and stay with what you have if you want but it would be nice to at least respond to the criticism in some way.

While I know you mean well, after three pages of this, it's obvious that BionicDance doesn't listen to anything that's not what s/he wants to hear. S/he is not going to try to do better. It's just not going to happen.