Can Mary Sues make for a successful comic?

[Dr Legostar]

i always figured mary sue was just the worst possible self insertion you could do. otherwise it's just self insertion, there's a lot of us in our characters even when we're not trying, not all characters are mary sues, just the ones that are too obviously ideal versions of ourselves. a good mary sue isn't a mary sue anywhere, she's something else. let's call her Mary Ellen or Mary Katherine or some one nun sounding name.

[Rkolter]

If you think he's well written, then he's not a Mary Sue, because the term Mary Sue inherently means that you think the character is not well written, as I've already said.

One should keep in mind that a character with a fantastically improbable backstory, vaguely defined powers, and excessive amounts of beauty is just an unrealistic (and, most likely, unsympathetic) character. It isn't until the plot starts contorting to elevate this character to unnatural heights that she becomes a Mary Sue.

-Mary Sue on TV Tropes Wiki

One should remember that James Bond isn't a perfect spy, anyway. Heck, in Die Another Day, he ended up stuck in a prison for over a year getting tortured.

Yeah, but what's the fun of being a spy if you aren't occasionally hit in the testicles with a bag full of rocks?

[Yeahduff]

So the answer to the question is, yes, self-indulgent bullshit can work if you do it right and you don't call it Mary Sue.

[Jekkal]

(On a side note, I'd like someone to enforce a ban on linking to the TVtropes wiki under pain of death, or at the very least "pain of a stern spanking".)

[Jim North]

Oh, right, I forgot to put up a disclaimer warning everyone that TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life.

There, all good now.

[Turnsky]

A Mary Sue is by defenition, bad writing. It isn't a perfect character, it's a character based off the creator in order to live out crazy fantasies. I've tried creating a perfect character, but they sort of develop their own flaws and become new characeters that could actually work. I do write Mary Sue stuff, but I never share it. My ultimate ninja-dreamaniac! MINE!

aaactually.. a Mary Sue by definition -is- a "Perfect" character, that is to say, an idealised version of whomever the author wants, well written characters are meant to be imperfect, right down to any psychological problems that they might have.

This seems to be conflicting. If a Mary Sue is a perfect character, and well written characters are meant to be imperfect, are you saying that you cannot by definition write a Mary Sue well?

I give you James Bond. Problem drinker and womanizer at the least, and yet the absolute, spot on perfect spy who perfectly manages to get himself out of any situation, including those brought on by his problem drinking and womanizing. He's a Mary Sue, yet imperfect. And, with a couple notable exceptions, James Bond is very well written.

from my point of view, a Mary Sue is a character that despite any flaws that he/she/it may apparently possess, they can do no wrong. This comes from experience, personally, i've seen the written kind of mary sue, and the roleplaying kind of mary sue.. trust me, some of them are pretty terrible.

[McDuffies]

I dunno. Maybe.
I always understood Mary Sue as a kind of character that has no flaws, from the author's perspective. It's not neccesarily a direct self-insertion, but it is a representation of what author would like to be, an ideal. Character Tommy from my "mcDuffies" comic was a deliberate Mary Sue (thought back then I didn't think in those terms), I added him as a straight man, to emphasize other character's flaws, but also because I wanted to joke with the stereotype, to show how such ideal can be irritating.
But generally, when someone asks "does this work", I don't think that parodies, pastiches and such things really count.

The worst problem with Mary Sue is that it's ultimately boring. It's basically author's daydreams, and one man's daydream is other man's bore, because daydreams don't have conflicts, or have conflicts that are resolved easily. What's worse, Mary Sue never has inner conflict, she's always right and knows what to do - and this is the kind of conflict that is usually the most interesting. Further, if reader doesn't manage to identify with Mary Sue (which is likely, because Mary Sue isn't tailored to reader's daydream) then instead of reading about perfect himself, reader is reading about perfect someone else, which makes so many Mary Sues perfectly irritating.

I think that Mary Sue can only work in a kind of story that is not centered around the character. If the attention is on something else, be it the plot or symbolism or subtext, then perhaps such character can work because it doesn't distract from the main thing, but also because it's a character that doesn't drive the story - it's being driven and only reacts to the enviroment.
In a dramatic story, it can hardly work. In psychological story - god forbid. Camp, adventurous or romantic stories are one example where, I think, it can work. Because, those kind of stories are often dramatized daydreams themselves, only more of lowest-common-denominator daydreams, so they target wider audience. Supporting characters also can be Mary Sues, although I'm not sure that it counts into the model when character is not actual center of attention. "Lady of the water" contains one of the most blatant supporting character Mary Sues I've seen.

[McDuffies]

Also if there's need for stern spanking of Jim, don't count on me.

[Jim North]

That's okay, I know I can still count on you for all the frivolous spankings, at least.

But yah, if they're not the center of attention, they're not really a Mary Sue. I think there's another term for the ultra-perfect better-than-thou side-character, but I can't remember exactly what it is. Might have to delve back into TV Tropes again.

[Drowemos]

Ok, let look at it this way.

Given:

• Rayne of Least I Could Do is a May Sue (if you have a compelling argument against this postulation I would love to hear it, keep in mind that he beat up superman with a kryptonite yo-yo and your answer must explain that.)
• Least I Could Do is one of the more successful comics.
• The millions of readers of Least I Could Do LOVE Rayne and defend him with a passion of a 1000 suns.
  Over 90% of LICD comic feature Rayne

Conclusions:

• The insipid stomach turning Mary Sueness of Rayne is some how a benefit to the comic. That a well executed Mary Sue can increase loyalty and popularity.

That or we need a new word for a 2 dimensional author self insertion that gets everything they want, can do know wrong and spend a majority of their time just espousing random and often socially irresponsible viewpoints but the readers love instead of recoiling in horror from the Wesley Crusherness of it.

PS: I would like to say I really like the creators of LICD. The are smart and dedicated people who know what they are doing. They deserve all the success they have and probably more. I just want to crack the formula of their success.

[Dr Legostar]

Ok, let look at it this way.

Given:

• Rayne of Least I Could Do is a May Sue (if you have a compelling argument against this postulation I would love to hear it, keep in mind that he beat up superman with a kryptonite yo-yo and your answer must explain that.)
• Least I Could Do is one of the more successful comics.
• The millions of readers of Least I Could Do LOVE Rayne and defend him with a passion of a 1000 suns.
  Over 90% of LICD comic feature Rayne

Conclusions:

• The insipid stomach turning Mary Sueness of Rayne is some how a benefit to the comic. That a well executed Mary Sue can increase loyalty and popularity.

That or we need a new word for a 2 dimensional author self insertion that gets everything they want, can do know wrong and spend a majority of their time just espousing random and often socially irresponsible viewpoints but the readers love instead of recoiling in horror from the Wesley Crusherness of it.

PS: I would like to say I really like the creators of LICD. The are smart and dedicated people who know what they are doing. They deserve all the success they have and probably more. I just want to crack the formula of their success.

millions of people like all sorts of crap.

[Drowemos]

millions of people like all sorts of crap.

Millions of people have money. Is it not a good idea then to look into fertilizer sales?

[Yeahduff]

This thread reeks of semantics. And fertilizer.

[McDuffies]

millions of people like all sorts of crap.

Millions of people have money. Is it not a good idea then to look into fertilizer sales?

Money can't buy me love.

[Dr Legostar]

millions of people like all sorts of crap.

Millions of people have money. Is it not a good idea then to look into fertilizer sales?

Money can't buy me love.

unless your love is fertilizer.

[Td501]

Rayne is not entirely infallable. He does get into a lot of trouble for what he does. I think a lot of his appeal is he does things we'd all like to do, but don't because we don't want to deal with the consequences. Just recently he knocked himself out doing crazy stunts in a Batman costume (the defeating Superman thing is just a dream sequence while he's unconcious). He's also been jailed several times for his antics. Of course, the comic would lose a lot of its humor if it followed through on the consequences in detail. Kinda like .Kevin and Kell is funny because it doesn't go into great detail on the fatal nature of that world

[Bustertheclown]

This thread reeks of semantics. And fertilizer.

Quoted for truth.

[Pimpette]

...Just recently he knocked himself out doing crazy stunts in a Batman costume (the defeating Superman thing is just a dream sequence while he's unconcious).

I read LICD once or twice out of boredom... and I must say I really really hate those storylines where they have rayne knocked out one way or another and throw him into a parody. I managed to force myself through the entirety of the first one they did and then just skipped the others because it was so terrible.

I do go back and read it once in a blue moon... but I do have a tendency to read trash. Hell, I think I made it through The Lounge and Sore Thumbs twice each... god knows why.

[McDuffies]

How about that comic they made to advertise lasers?

[Jekkal]

How about that comic they made to advertise lasers?

Oh, GAG ME.

I want to scrub that series from my brain, especially with the way they ended it.