The Fickleness of Language

Aeridus · Post by **Aeridus** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:30 pm

I can't help but notice that almost every debate around here tends to devolve into squabbling over the definition of a word.

First of all, not all of us have read the dictionary cover to cover. We just don't have that much spare time on our hands. Second of all, even if we are fully aware of how a word is defined, tons of words have multiple definitions given the context. Which is tricky when you try to say that something is either "blank" or it isn't "blank". Or some variation thereof.

I am aware that there are also many words for which there is one sole definition, but the other problem is how much a word applies to a situation. For instance, if something were green, and I had no word for that in my language, I would be justified in saying that it is "somewhat blue". Just as I would also be justified in saying that it is "somewhat yellow".

And of course there are words like "love" whose meaning has been debated for centuries.

What kinds of standards would you suggest for making language clearer to understand, especially if a word is ambiguous or could be considered ambiguous in a certain context? Should we all have an unabridged dictionary and pull it out and point to the numbered definition of a word and say "I mean this"? Should we use a full paragraph to explain what we mean by a word? Should we use special prefixes or postfixes or adjectives to specify what angle we're coming at a word with?

Also, what if we assume we know the definition for sure when it's really an ambiguous word or the definition we've been brought up to understand is not completely correct?

Halo299 · Post by **Halo299** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:19 pm

you've made some really good points there but i just don't know what to say about all that.

I remember an H.P. Lovecraft story about a guy who was kind of a hick, nut was having these beautiful visions in his dreams, but because of his lot intellect and lack of understanding of language he was unable to express how beautiful the visions are...he dies at the end of the story.

I also once had a philosophy professor who would often tell use that unless you know how to say something that you really didn't know what you were thinking to begin with because language is so closely linked to thought. Kind of a tough thought to wrap your brain around, and i am not sure i agree, but it was a great class.

-halo

Aeridus · Post by **Aeridus** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:31 pm

I think primarily in pictures, it's why English is a bit tricky for me to process sometimes. I have to turn just about everything into a picture before I can understand it. On the flip side, I can see lots of beautiful patterns of interconnected images in my mind, but it's very hard for me to explain those patterns sometimes.

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:14 pm

Aeridus, I'll tell you exactly where a lot of the discussions here boil down to definitions: language is the foundation of all arguementation.

I'm on my school's nationally competetive debate team, and I can tell you that my team wins and loses debates based on definitions.

Why do I squabble over the definitions of words? Because people need to get a fucking clue, that's why.

If you make a statement that I claim is false, then either provide support for your claim or admit defeat. Don't try to tell me the words you used don't mean what they actually mean.

Example
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dogs can fly." -person

"No, they can't. Dogs don't have wings, and have never been seens in the air." -me

"By fly, I meant walk." -person
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Somebody going back and making up new definitions for words is a sure sign that either they're losing the arguement and can't think of something better to do, or they're completely ignorant of the concept of effective communication.

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:34 pm

Hmmmm, not everyone speaks English as their first language on this forum, I think that's worth bearing in mind.

Swordsie wrote:Why do I squabble over the definitions of words? Because people need to get a fucking clue, that's why.

Darl', why are you being so rough lately?

Xero · Post by **Xero** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:31 pm

I suggest not being emo about it and finding as more dictionaries that agree with you and not the other person

or find something better to argue about like if cowgirl is better than doggy

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:39 pm

I vote that doggie is better... No, cowgirl is better... No, DOGGIE...

Dammit, I can't decide.

Indigo Violent · Post by **Indigo Violent** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:18 pm

Cowgirl. You can grind your clit against him and as a bonus, he can be tied to the bed.
And dictionaries are at best chronicles of language, not arbiters. I assume that any dictionary is always at least somewhat incomplete or inaccurate.

Ce6 · Post by **Ce6** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:55 pm

Lulujayne wrote:I vote that doggie is better... No, cowgirl is better... No, DOGGIE...

Dammit, I can't decide.

This requires some further scientific study to determine the proper result.

I'll get the lube.

Churba · Post by **Churba** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:54 am

My theory on the issue is thus. I apologize for length (But not girth) and essential aussieness of it, but here goes.

We're just a bunch of cunts who like to argue.

How's that tickle you?

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:03 am

Define "cunt" Churba.

Celdia · Post by **Celdia** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:18 am

This topic brought this to mind...

http://www.xkcd.com/326/

...annnnd that's about all I got.

Unholy · Post by **Unholy** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:40 am

Lulujayne wrote:Define "cunt" Churba.

George Bush

*runs out of thread*

Lowky · Post by **Lowky** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:49 am

Indigo Violent wrote:Cowgirl. You can grind your clit against him and as a bonus, he can be tied to the bed.
And dictionaries are at best chronicles of language, not arbiters. I assume that any dictionary is always at least somewhat incomplete or inaccurate.

No it's doggie, cause you can have two of your girlfriends involved one using a strap on doggie style while the other one is underneath applying pressure to your clit with her tongue.

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:40 am

Lulujayne wrote:Hmmmm, not everyone speaks English as their first language on this forum, I think that's worth bearing in mind.

Spanish isn't my first language, but I don't complain when a native speaker tells me I'm using words improperly. As a matter of fact, I thank them.

Lulujayne wrote:Darl', why are you being so rough lately?

The university is finally putting me to work.

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:07 am

Fair enough darl', though it might be interesting if you learned a non-Romantic language. Things get very nebulous then

Incidentally, you're not at university on this forum, so would you mind bending over whilst you give your rebuttal.... I have fun toys

WangyJohn · Post by **WangyJohn** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:49 am

Lulujayne wrote:Define "cunt" Churba.

Reminds me of an idea for a politcal comic I had:
Kid clinton standing next to a broken vase, says "define 'did' "
Kid Bush standing next to a broken vase, says "define 'broke' "

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:53 am

Lulujayne wrote:Fair enough darl', though it might be interesting if you learned a non-Romantic language. Things get very nebulous then

Incidentally, you're not at university on this forum, so would you mind bending over whilst you give your rebuttal.... I have fun toys

*bends over*

You know something that Americans do differently? They say "at college" instead of "at university." They use "college" when referring to 'schooling' in the conceptual sense, and only say "university" when referring to a specific entity or location, and almost always precede it with an article.

Halo299 · Post by **Halo299** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:41 am

swordsman3003 wrote:
Spanish isn't my first language, but I don't complain when a native speaker tells me I'm using words improperly. As a matter of fact, I thank them.

if you speak Spanish well enough for native speakers not to think you are an idiot i envy you. SPA 101 is kicking my ass right now.

-halo

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:06 am

swordsman3003 wrote:
Lulujayne wrote:Fair enough darl', though it might be interesting if you learned a non-Romantic language. Things get very nebulous then

Incidentally, you're not at university on this forum, so would you mind bending over whilst you give your rebuttal.... I have fun toys
*bends over*

You know something that Americans do differently? They say "at college" instead of "at university." They use "college" when referring to 'schooling' in the conceptual sense, and only say "university" when referring to a specific entity or location, and almost always precede it with an article.

It just means "tertiary education" from my neck of the woods, whereas we would use "college" as you use "university.

Anyway, GRAB YOUR ANKLES DEARHEART