FCBD 2008

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:45 am

Shishio wrote:
LibertyCabbage wrote:I agree, but in this case superficiality might be more reasonable than a purely subjective approach to considering whose opinions are more valid than everyone else's.
I disagree. I've already named three people that would make good judges/editors. Granted, they're members of the community, but I think it would be better to give the position to people who would be passionate about making a quality book than people who may not care as much.

But, selecting the judges is as subjective as the judges selecting the submissions. You'd be hard-pressed to prove that your support of those judges is completely unbiased.

LibertyCabbage wrote:Then again, the potential for bias and favoritism doesn't bother me much, and I can see it as sort of a "necessary evil". People aren't perfect, and we shouldn't try to be, and to try to make entirely rational judgments without taking emotional connections into consideration is a flawed approach. So what if someone picks their buddy's comic over another one that's slightly better? It's how reality operates, and people can bitch about it all they want but there's nothing they can really do besides trying harder the next time.

I can't believe you said this.[/quote]

I'm just being realistic. As a society we have to accept faulty systems because there's no such thing as a utopia. We recognize our judicial system even though we know it's capable of making errors because we don't have a better alternative and abolishing the system would lead to chaos. There are employers who pick their relatives and friends over people more qualified, but that doesn't mean that businesses are wrong, just imperfect. There's no news source that's 100% unbiased, but we rely on them because it's the only way to know what's going on. So, I'm just saying that we need to expect to put up with biases and mistakes, because it's a compromise we need to accept in order to get anything accomplished.

pierce studios wrote:Yeah see that right there was the problem with last year's book and that right there is a very large part of why we got negative review after negative review.

That's the problem, but what's the solution? We can't try to get perfect, unbiased judges because there's no such thing. We have to settle for an imperfect system and just try to make it better than it was last year.

Rickford · Post by **Rickford** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:50 am

LibertyCabbage wrote: We have to settle for an imperfect system

Why? Defeatist attitude like that will get nobody anywhere.

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:51 am

Komiyan wrote:
LibertyCabbage wrote: Then again, the potential for bias and favoritism doesn't bother me much, and I can see it as sort of a "necessary evil". People aren't perfect, and we shouldn't try to be, and to try to make entirely rational judgments without taking emotional connections into consideration is a flawed approach. So what if someone picks their buddy's comic over another one that's slightly better? It's how reality operates, and people can bitch about it all they want but there's nothing they can really do besides trying harder the next time.
No, see, there's the option to do better this time, and you can't just shrug and go 'Ah well, it'll be shit either way'.

"Shit"? No. I said "slightly better"; I'm not talking about picking your friend's sprite comic over a semi-professional work. Selecting the better of similar options can be considered the product of critical choice. If the submissions are of a large disparity then picking the inferior one is simply irresponsible, to say the least.

Hogan · Post by **Hogan** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:58 am

What I think the last CG FCBD missed was, as previously noted by others, lack of consistency... what we got was a collection of 1-2 page comics you could begin reading and end before you even figured out what it all was about... not the best way to advertise the comics, and probably not CG either. Most readers will read it through and throw it away, its not something that compels people to get back and read it again, or even visit the various sites.
The various submissions I, for the most, liked, but the presentation could have been better, and overall CG didn't show off that much.

If one want to catch the readers and make them interested, I would say a single story from the same script, continuing through comic after comic, playing on the settings the comic can provide before moving on would be an idea. A script featuring Gen-Chan travelling the various comics, interacting with the "natives" and on her way presenting them to the readers as something CG can offer would both contribute to showing off CG as a multiartist meetingplace, open for everyone, but could also show off the individual comics taking part.

Off course, this would mean that the comics should be chosen beforehand so that the writer could get to know them in advance and base the script upon them....

Just a couple of cents thrown into the pot...

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:02 am

Rickford wrote:
LibertyCabbage wrote: We have to settle for an imperfect system
Why? Defeatist attitude like that will get nobody anywhere.

A valid argument, but I could counter that if we try too hard to be "perfect" then there might not even be a CG FCDB 2008 because we won't be able to live up to our own high standards.

Komiyan · Post by **Komiyan** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:16 am

Then don't be perfect, be the best you can. Have the best entries chosen and don't just lay back and let people show bias.

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:16 am

Hogan wrote: If one want to catch the readers and make them interested, I would say a single story from the same script, continuing through comic after comic, playing on the settings the comic can provide before moving on would be an idea. A script featuring Gen-Chan travelling the various comics, interacting with the "natives" and on her way presenting them to the readers as something CG can offer would both contribute to showing off CG as a multiartist meetingplace, open for everyone, but could also show off the individual comics taking part.

The problem with the "one script" idea some people have been mentioning is that one writer doesn't represent CG anymore than one artist would. And, inversely, having a group of people trying to make a script together would probably be a disaster and worse off then letting people do their own writing. Also, Gen-Chan may be CG's mascot but I think she's more a symbol than an actual character. I mean, the only time I ever see her is on the front page, so I don't see how she'd be expected to somehow carry a narrative.

By the way, I'm thinking now that the best course of action might be to simply have people nominate judges and then pick their top 3 in a private polling (done via PM.) People might vote for unfit candidates, or people might vote for their friends in hope that they might reciprocate, but it's still probably the best and most fair way to do it aside from asking Keenspot or some other external party to handle it.

Robin Pierce · Post by **Robin Pierce** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:26 am

If one want to catch the readers and make them interested, I would say a single story from the same script, continuing through comic after comic, playing on the settings the comic can provide before moving on would be an idea. A script featuring Gen-Chan travelling the various comics, interacting with the "natives" and on her way presenting them to the readers as something CG can offer would both contribute to showing off CG as a multiartist meetingplace, open for everyone, but could also show off the individual comics taking part.

I don't think this is a good idea because it comes back to a lack of consistancy - this time in the setting, and it'll turn back into advertising and into the formulaic 'this is so and so, he's in this comic etc'. It just WILL.

That's why I think individual short stories on a certain theme are good. It forces the submitors to think outside their own boxes and in free and constrained format at the same time.

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:32 am

Komiyan wrote:Then don't be perfect, be the best you can. Have the best entries chosen and don't just lay back and let people show bias.

Agreed, and that's up to the observers to scrutinize and be vigilant, which hopefully they will be.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not condoning bias by any means, I'm just pointing out that some bias is inevitable, and this can be related to someone having a preference for a particular genre or style as opposed to just a preference for a certain person. If a judge doesn't like Poser comics and chooses a hand-drawn artist over an equally skilled Poser artist then that sort of decision is just part of their authority of being a judge as long as there isn't a sizable objection.

Rickford · Post by **Rickford** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:33 am

pierce studios wrote:That's why I think individual short stories on a certain theme are good. It forces the submitors to think outside their own boxes and in free and constrained format at the same time.

Totally agreed.

Komiyan · Post by **Komiyan** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:34 am

Hogan wrote: If one want to catch the readers and make them interested, I would say a single story from the same script, continuing through comic after comic, playing on the settings the comic can provide before moving on would be an idea. A script featuring Gen-Chan travelling the various comics, interacting with the "natives" and on her way presenting them to the readers as something CG can offer would both contribute to showing off CG as a multiartist meetingplace, open for everyone, but could also show off the individual comics taking part.

That's a bit cheesy.. I like the idea of short stories based on a theme a lot more..

Hogan · Post by **Hogan** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:55 am

LibertyCabbage wrote:
Hogan wrote: If one want to catch the readers and make them interested, I would say a single story from the same script, continuing through comic after comic, playing on the settings the comic can provide before moving on would be an idea. A script featuring Gen-Chan travelling the various comics, interacting with the "natives" and on her way presenting them to the readers as something CG can offer would both contribute to showing off CG as a multiartist meetingplace, open for everyone, but could also show off the individual comics taking part.
The problem with the "one script" idea some people have been mentioning is that one writer doesn't represent CG anymore than one artist would. And, inversely, having a group of people trying to make a script together would probably be a disaster and worse off then letting people do their own writing. Also, Gen-Chan may be CG's mascot but I think she's more a symbol than an actual character. I mean, the only time I ever see her is on the front page, so I don't see how she'd be expected to somehow carry a narrative.

You are right on that, but one script would unite several comics in a continually running story would probably allow them individually to represent the diversity of CG more than a bunch of individuel 1-2 page comics without concistancy. This will also allow a lot of comics to be represented in the FCBD, again playing on the diversity of CG.

However, a major drawback to this idea would be that it needs one hell of a writer who could set up a story that could deal with the various settings of the various comics and merge them into one continually story, so this leads us to the other suggestion... less submissions, longer theme-based stories... I like that though it doesn't represent CG as a whole, but more the individual artists.

The questions would just be... who to pick and who to judge who to pick?
A problem would be that, with more artists, one submission lost could easily be replaced or left out, but if 1 out of 5-6 artists does not meet the deadline, its a good deal of the book that'll miss out.
This puts some extra pressure on choosing the ones to do the book...

CJBurgandy · Post by **CJBurgandy** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:59 am

I'm agreeing with Komi, not only because the idea of Gen-chan's travels being cheesy, but also, visiting crappy comics might do her harm. Say she ends up in a place where villains are the main characters? Wouldn't they rather kill her than help her onto the next one? Or if she ends up in an adult comic? Most adult comic characters would rather just strip her down and tweek her nipples. And jumping into a furry comic would be enough to send her into a state of mental shock, thusly ending her adventures because she's too busy being huddled into the fetal position and sucking her thumb.

I do like the short stories based on a theme idea. Having some kind of consistancy might actually make some stores want to actually carry it in years to follow. There are 2 reasons I've never been interested in doing the FCBD. One being that they always suck and the biggest reason being that I don't want to invest all my time on something that I won't be able to get access to locally. No stores in my area ever carry the CG or Spot books. They're a waste of the store's money and they know it. I can't speak for Fairbanks, on if their stores carry it or not. But if they don't that means no stores in this whole state carry them.
And it's not that my local stores are bias against webcomics. They do sell webcomic based books in their stores. I've seen plenty of PVP, Sinfest, Penny Arcade and Norwick books being sold in both chains of comic book stores here. The difference is they know people will buy those comics and wouldn't think twice about throwing their CG book of crappy advertisments away.

Robin Pierce · Post by **Robin Pierce** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:00 am

@ Hogan - Going back about four pages and shortforming it - reread the original post if you want the expanded:

My opinion:

Anthology of short stories with a theme + several pages of business card/banner sized ads at the back. Stories drawn in advance and then voted on by a committee, preferably by people with almost no connection with the CG crowd.

You know... everyone can draw a short story on the theme, then a commitee of judges (outlined about three of my posts back) picks the winners. The stories would be COMPLETE at this point, so there's no worry about submissions not being completed. This isn't actually as complicated as people are making it out to be.

Hogan · Post by **Hogan** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:16 am

pierce studios wrote:@ Hogan - Going back about four pages and shortforming it - reread the original post if you want the expanded:

My opinion:

Anthology of short stories with a theme + several pages of business card/banner sized ads at the back. Stories drawn in advance and then voted on by a committee, preferably by people with almost no connection with the CG crowd.
You know... everyone can draw a short story on the theme, then a commitee of judges (outlined about three of my posts back) picks the winners. The stories would be COMPLETE at this point, so there's no worry about submissions not being completed. This isn't actually as complicated as people are making it out to be.

But I LIKE making things complicated!

But... hmm... yes, that could do it, if the stories are submitted beforehand and up to a set deadline, there's only to choose from the submitted stories... clear enough!

The defense will now rest its case and join the support of the before mentioned suggestion.

Coyotzin · Post by **Coyotzin** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:20 am

What about asking comic bloggers to do the judging? They are used to do some judging already. Eric Burns from Websnark and Ping Teo from the old Webcomic Finds come to mind.

I also agree on themed anthology. The short stories can even be set in each author's comic as long as they comply with the theme, so it showcases both the author's work and ability to comply.

And artistic freedom is overrated when dealing with any project with standards. I've done writing and art to clients' specs and it hasn't hurt my creativity in the least. So, anyone who feels cannot comply with the standards set for the book can simply choose not to participate.

Rickford · Post by **Rickford** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:27 am

My biggest worry is that if something is dictated to that extent, it will cease to be in any way relevent to the actual artist.

I draw comics. As in things that are funny. If what I'm drawing doesn't make people laugh, then it's not my work. I couldn't really care less about story, I'm there to throw out a joke or two.

Themed jokes and gags are something I can do, but if a script or story is already laid down, there's nothing I can do. It's the difference between making a comic or making a graphic novel.

Komiyan · Post by **Komiyan** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:29 am

Stories make people laugh all the time, don't you think you'd be able to adapt from a gag strip to a comedy short story?

Rickford · Post by **Rickford** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:34 am

Yeah, perhaps I didn't word that perfectly. I mean I can hold to a short story if I need to, but I need to have the freedom to write it myself and insert my own jokes wherever I ese fit (or rather have my writer ((pip)) do it).

For example, if I was told roughly to have a story about an elephant who finds his way into the london underground, I could do that.

But if I was just given a script to illustrate, it would be a no.

Creative imput is important, or it ceases to be the work of the artist, and merely ends up as an illustration of someone else's work.

Coyotzin · Post by **Coyotzin** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:38 am

This is precisely the idea, or at least the one that most people are agreeing to.