in his name...wait what?

Linkara · Post by **Linkara** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:32 pm

What doesn't make sense to you?

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:40 pm

The philosphy on fictional characters. I still don't understand what the philosphy was.

Illithid Tentacles · Post by **Illithid Tentacles** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:42 pm

Hm... well, that was.... unique. I think it's supposed to be some sort of allegory about religious people and taking things "in God's/Jesus' name" too far. Or maybe about how religious people (especially the preachy ones) tend to be so full of shit. Or maybe it was a comment on how you're not supposed to look too deeply into things (everyone was happy until they started actually studying the bible).

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:46 pm

Yeah, I'm with Swordsie on that one Linkara - not that I disagree with you, it's just that I don't quite "get it." I'd like to "get it," though - perhaps you could pm me if you don't feel like hashing it out on the forum again

Do your fictional characters have souls too, and how does that fit in with your Christianity?

Linkara · Post by **Linkara** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:41 am

It's a complicated little mess. ^_~ I was going to repost the e-mail I sent to Honor and swordsman a while ago again, but it seems the forums do not hold on to sent e-mails from months back. As such, I'll try to explain this as best as I can since it's 3 AM.

The philosopher Rene Descartes introduced the idea that since we are capable of being deceived, we must have some existence. It's impossible to deceive something that's not there, so we must have some kind of substance, even if it's one where we're being tricked or manipulated by some demonic spirit for its amusement. This is where the phrase "I think, therefore I am" comes from. We have thought, therefore we have some type of existence (even if that existence is nothing more than a brain in a jar or plugged into the Matrix).

A few centuries later, the philosopher George Berkeley wrote the idea that we gain empirical knowledge about the world through our perceptions of it. "Esse est percipi" - To be is to be perceived. Fictional characters are perceived all the time by people. Certainly they have no flesh, but they must have some type of substance and existence, I can perceive them, even if it is a bit in my imagination. Berkeley also wrote that the way that sensations are caused by God directly imparting those feelings upon us.

It is in that same manner that fictional characters and their writers are akin to God and his creations. Now, personally, as a Christian, I believe that people have free will and God created a scientific, biological, ordered system that allowed us to feel our senses for us without having to impart those feelings upon us directly. However, writers give their characters emotions, thoughts, perceptions - their very own existence. It's a predetermined universe, mind you, because the "God" of the fictional characters always controls what those fictional characters do, but they still have existence because they are given thought. And they still have sensation and feeling because they're given them.

Now, that's the philosophical ideas behind fictional characters being "real" to me. From a theological standpoint, here are a few of my beliefs:

I believe that the Christian God is the correct God. It is very possible I might be wrong, but I do not believe it to be so and I hope I'm not. I believe Jesus died for our sins and that evil still exists in the world today, some done just by man alone and some inspired by the devil. God grants us free will, but because God is all-knowing, he is capable of seeing every possible outcome from every possible choice we make. Thus, he will not interfere with our choices, but he can take action accordingly depending on how we actually DO react.

Tying this in to the fictional characters, I do not know enough about how souls work in the real world (If I had to guess, I'd say everyone is born with a soul and are capable of losing it and regaining it depending on the choices they make and the actions they do), but I'd like to think that with the metaphysical concepts of what I feel about fictional characters, that they have souls, as well. The job of a writer is to do what they feel is best with their character, sometimes for ill or not. It's altogether cruel sometimes, of course, when a character is harmed by the decisions of their God, and I subsequently must stand up for them because I feel a grave injustice has been done against them.

The thing is, I do believe that God created the best universe for us and that somewhere along the line we screwed up royal. As a result, things are not always as fair as they should be and things can be awful dark and it can feel at times that God's not looking out for us (I disagree, though, on that point - remind me to talk about my theory of the Bureaucratic Theocracy of Angels sometime. ^_~). As such, I want to be the best possible God for my fictional characters. Sometimes I can be rather harmful to them in the name of drama to entertain, enlighten, and/or inspire others, but I try not to be overly malicious. It's also why it saddens me to see a comic like this where all the characters die in such terrible manners just for the sake of "entertainment" or "humor." If it's not supposed to be funny in real life, why should it be funny in a comic, either? Sure, exceptions can be made in the case of dark humor, but I don't always laugh at it. Sometimes I'll laugh at the expense of someone's pain, but I try not to do it often.

This has been Linkara for all your crap you really didn't want to think about, don't get, or just don't care about. ^_^ Thank you, and goodnight.

Illithid Tentacles · Post by **Illithid Tentacles** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:02 am

Linkara wrote:I believe that the Christian God is the correct God.

And this is precisely why I'm not a Christian. The fact that so many of them think that thier way is the ONLY CORRECT way, and that they have to either lord it over you or bug the shit out of you in an attempt to get you to convert. I've seen some actually trying to convert other Christians from other denominations to thier own.

Now, Linkara, don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against you, either as a person or a Christian, especially the latter, because, unlike so many others, you seem to actively think. And I don't have anything against most religions people, those who keep it to themselves and thier church (since I think religion is and should be a personal, private thing). I do take exception, however, to the religious people who bug me about my own religion (or rather my lack thereof) and call me sinner and devil-worshipper (yes, this HAS actually occured), and seem to think that just because I don't like thier imaginary friend as much as they do that I must be a horrid animal-raping child-murdering monster. (Incedentally, I live in Kansas.)

I don't have anything against religion or faith itself. I think that, in moderation, they can be good things. When it goes too far, though, you start having things like what the Kansas State Board of Education tried to pull last year (basically they tried to get Christian creationism, because that's obviously the correct one, taught in science classes in public schools as a viable if not likely alternative to evolution. This is mostly what promted what'shisname to create the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pastafarianism), and on a more extreme scale, holy wars. In my observations, however, most people SUCK at moderation.

BriHahn · Post by **BriHahn** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:28 am

Illithid Tentacles wrote:
Linkara wrote:I believe that the Christian God is the correct God.
And this is precisely why I'm not a Christian. The fact that so many of them think that thier way is the ONLY CORRECT way, and that they have to either lord it over you or bug the shit out of you in an attempt to get you to convert. I've seen some actually trying to convert other Christians from other denominations to thier own.

Now, Linkara, don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against you, either as a person or a Christian, especially the latter, because, unlike so many others, you seem to actively think. And I don't have anything against most religions people, those who keep it to themselves and thier church (since I think religion is and should be a personal, private thing). I do take exception, however, to the religious people who bug me about my own religion (or rather my lack thereof) and call me sinner and devil-worshipper (yes, this HAS actually occured), and seem to think that just because I don't like thier imaginary friend as much as they do that I must be a horrid animal-raping child-murdering monster. (Incedentally, I live in Kansas.)

I don't have anything against religion or faith itself. I think that, in moderation, they can be good things. When it goes too far, though, you start having things like what the Kansas State Board of Education tried to pull last year (basically they tried to get Christian creationism, because that's obviously the correct one, taught in science classes in public schools as a viable if not likely alternative to evolution. This is mostly what promted what'shisname to create the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pastafarianism), and on a more extreme scale, holy wars. In my observations, however, most people SUCK at moderation.

I agree wholeheartedly. I happen to be a Unitarian Universalist myself, and if there's one thing I truly actively dislike (maybe even out and out despise or hate) it's people who try to tell me how to worship. Obviously, that doesn't include anyone on here, but there've been times I wanted to reach through my computer screen and strangle the person Bible-thumping at me. I got told I "belong to Satan" once recently, during a debate on the topic of same-sex marriage, just because I kept questioning the person constantly quoting the Bible about discrepancies I and others have noted in the Bible. Pissed me off to no end.

I believe in God. I doubt my God would be considered the strict Christian version, since after joining my church I've become very interested in what others see quote-unquote "God" to be and seeing if there is an element of their belief that I can believe in myself or not. Some viewed God the Christian way; others believed in the Goddess, others preferred the more Buddhist/Taoism/Zen versions, and still others believed there was no God, just some sort of amorphous higher power, not a being. And the beauty of it all is, I can sit down with them and enjoy myself immensely discussing religion without ever once feeling like I'm being told I believe wrongly.

I would add one small codicil to Illithid's post; it isn't just Christians who try to tell us what to believe. It's for that reason that I think all FUNDAMENTALISTS that advocate conversion of any religion should be kept separate from everyone else. Go establish your perfect world elsewhere and leave me in peace. Hell, I'd be happy if we could get all Fundamentalists to quit being Fundamentalists, at least the ones that tend to think it's their mission to convert the whole world, by any means necessary; I have no problems with what they believe, and I firmly think that they have the right to believe however and whatever they choose to believe, but this mentality of "I'm right, everyone else is fucked" has GOT to go. God gave us free will for a reason, as far as I'm concerned. Don't fuck up my life just because you can't see past the end of your narrow little world-view.

And with that being said, I am stepping off my little soapbox and going to take something for this damned headache.

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:19 am

Linkara wrote:a lot

I still don't get it.

By what power do humans have the ability to create souls?

How can I being without self-conciousness have a soul?

How can you distinguish between fictional character that someone has written about, told a story about, or just makes up in their mind?

Am I guilty of crimes for the things I think of while masturbating [cause some of them are pretty unethical and certainly not legal]?

Aeridus · Post by **Aeridus** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:25 am

I'm still a pantheist pansexual.

Linkara · Post by **Linkara** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:33 am

Ah, you misunderstand me a bit. ^_~ When I say believe in the Christian God and believe he's the correct God, I don't mean anyone else's religious beliefs are necessarily wrong or going to get them sent to hell. I believe in the Christian God who's loving, caring, and all-knowing. In fact, if God was to be so petty as to not permit people into heaven just because they didn't believe in him but still lived a good life, I'd be over to the dark side so fast you wouldn't have time to blink.

I'm well aware of how the Bible has inconsistencis, phrases, and downright dispicable parts of it that come from a cultural and historical perspective different from the modern age. I still think they're wrong, but I don't fault the book overall from them. The book may have been inspired by God in many areas, but it was people who wrote them, people with their own biases, beliefs, and ideas when it came to interpreting God. I don't believe homosexuality is a sin nor having different beliefs. Like I said, it's all a matter of the choices we make that make us a good or bad person.
And it's also why I don't believe Muslims or Buddhists or other religions go to hell or purgatory unless they were evil in life.

And to Swordsman...

Like I said, I don't know enough about the nature of souls to say we create them, but I'd say they probably form on their own by the actions and thoughts we impart upon fictional beings. Of course, I could be entirely wrong and actually we create existence through fictional beings, but not souls.

How do you know that fictional beings don't have self-consciousness? ^_~ All I have to do is write down a thought bubble that says, "I'm aware of myself and the world I am in." for it to have it. While I don't believe in a predetermined universe, a predetermined universe is still capable of having souls, it's just they can lose them (which is really a raw deal since they have no choice in the matter).

It's a matter of how much thought exists with the fictional character and the character existing in the mind. A fictional character has already been written down with thoughts, feelings,and whatnot. How much substance has the imagination of an individual given to the person inside their thoughts?

On some levels, yes and no. After all, if we did live in a predetermined universe, wouldn't God be guilty of all the evil and horrible things that happened to it? Amusingly, when I first presented this argument to my Modern Philosophy class, I began exactly with that sentiment - "All writers are rapists, murderers, and thieves." I meant it in an amusing, grab-your-attention type of thing, since I admit I'm guilty of some similar thoughts to yours, swordsman. ^_~ I'd say you can be let off the hook, swordsman, because the benefit of being a god to our own characters and imagination grants us not only the power of retcon but also the fact that we can fantasize about certain things without letting the essence of our fantasy have any bearing beyond just that fantasy. I may believe that those characters have some reality to them, but there is still a difference between fantasy and reality.

Katrina Mishow · Post by **Katrina Mishow** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:04 pm

I'm not the best at putting my opinions and thoughts into words.. so this may get confusing, I dunno.

To the soul thing.. I think we pour a little bit of our own soul into the characters we make.. Maybe not creating souls for them, but using a bit of our own to give them their own little lives and thoughts.

As for the rest of the conversation.. I'm in complete agreement with Linkara. It's almost the same way I believe myself.. I think the bible has faults.. but only because it's man that wrote it. And man can be corrupted, greedy, selfish, etc.. change the text they don't like, putting in their own morals and etc.. Essentially.. I end up believing that God will help me find out what is right and wrong his own way, through the way we feel guilt and such.. .. maybe not the best way to think of it, since I am sure there are plenty of murderers and rapists that have not a whit of guilt for what they have done.. but that is how I think He works for me.

I also don't think that He is the -only- god.. .. If He was, He wouldn't have to have put in the 'no other gods before me' commandment, would He? I guess it might have been a deterrant for those trying to believe in gods that don't exist.. hrm..

I've found a whole lot of discrepencies with the bible.. especially in Revelation.. a book I'm not sure should even be in the bible. It was cannonized over 200 years after the majority of the new testiment.. it wasn't even written by the same John people think it was. And besides, it was very popular for people to write letters in the names of the Apostles. The writing style of that book (original Greek translation) was completely different from the other books the Apostle John wrote.. He wrote in what was High Greek.. and Revelation was written in something almost slang filled, I think. Heck, when talking about the breastplate of christ.. or.. something like that.. the word he used for breastplate was translated more as the female breast and a plate.. I think.. not the protective armor.

.. Erm.. right. I dunno why I typed that whole paragraph, but eh.. might as well get it out of my system, ne? Anyway.. basically, I feel people should believe what they feel is right for them.. not what everyone else forces them to think.

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:49 pm

Okey Dokey - for those of you that just shot out posts in regards to Linkara's faith, I think that you're missing the point slightly.

Thank you Linkara for elaborating - I've not read such a detailed description from you regarding this before. That said, however, I'm still inclined to voice the same questions as Swordsie has.

Also, I'm really intrigued as to the way you came to this idea - Did you have a "feeling" about fictional characters, then discover philisophical arguments/points-of-view that supported this view, or did you come to a conclusion after learning about different philisophical schools of thought?

(I know it seems redundant but I love the nit-picky details in life, after all, according to some of our greatest minds - that's where the beauty lies

)

By the by, If it's all fine by you dearheart, I have a great big debate-type-sensible-exchange-of-views-thingy that I'm going to launch into with you tommorrow (because right now it's 3:41am my time, and I've just got home from an "almost respectable" night out with mates) because I've always loved the ambiguity that the "deception/thinkthereforeIam" statement entails. It's the ultimate "chicken and egg" conundrum, if you're into that kind of thing

Jetsetlemming · Post by **Jetsetlemming** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:10 pm

...I don't get it. >_> So, if I as a writer kill off a character, I'm commiting a sin? If a reader lusts after a fictional girl in a story, is he commiting adultery?

Awkwardschoolgirl · Post by **Awkwardschoolgirl** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:14 pm

Linky - You should watch Stranger Than Fiction if you haven't already. It's good (Fantastic by Will Ferrell's standards

). Your thoughts on fictional characters made me think of it. It's about a man who one day starts hearing the narration of his life because a woman was writing a story and he was the main character. She plans to kill him off and he hears the narration about his up coming death and has to find her to ask her to not kill off his character because it will kill him in real life.

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:18 pm

Stranger than fiction is my favorite Will Ferral movie.

Linkara:

A written statement "i am self concious" does not make a piece of paper self-concious. Writing "hot" on a paper does not make it on fire.

Aeridus · Post by **Aeridus** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:19 pm

Watch the movie Stranger Than Fiction sometime.

Very very interesting concept...

Edit: Was beat to it.

Darn 5 minute distractions. Still, good movie!

BriHahn · Post by **BriHahn** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:34 pm

Linkara wrote:Ah, you misunderstand me a bit. ^_~ When I say believe in the Christian God and believe he's the correct God, I don't mean anyone else's religious beliefs are necessarily wrong or going to get them sent to hell. I believe in the Christian God who's loving, caring, and all-knowing. In fact, if God was to be so petty as to not permit people into heaven just because they didn't believe in him but still lived a good life, I'd be over to the dark side so fast you wouldn't have time to blink.

I'm well aware of how the Bible has inconsistencis, phrases, and downright dispicable parts of it that come from a cultural and historical perspective different from the modern age. I still think they're wrong, but I don't fault the book overall from them. The book may have been inspired by God in many areas, but it was people who wrote them, people with their own biases, beliefs, and ideas when it came to interpreting God. I don't believe homosexuality is a sin nor having different beliefs. Like I said, it's all a matter of the choices we make that make us a good or bad person.
And it's also why I don't believe Muslims or Buddhists or other religions go to hell or purgatory unless they were evil in life.

Ah, very well stated!

A lot of people don't realize this, or don't CHOOSE to realize this, but... the Bible, in reality, is not the word of God. If it were, God would have written it him/herself. The Bible is the word of God AS INTERPRETED BY MAN, and everyone's perception of something is going to be different. Basic psychology there. So, what one man heard, another man might hear differently and therefore write down differently.

Another thing; there are countless scrolls and gospels written at or around the same time as the Bible. The Dead Sea scrolls come to mind. Why is it that these books are not in the Bible as well? Who arbitrarily said, "Only these books can go in there and no others"? I view the Bible as a wonderful GUIDE for living a good and just life, but I know to take it with a grain of salt for all the reasons I just stated; plus, how do we even know it's been translated correctly, since no one's spoken Aramaic or whatever was used as the language to write things down in back then in thousands of years? I know we had the Rosetta stone to use to translate some ancient languages, but it wasn't a dictionary; it was three different translations of the same text (as I recall; I may be wrong on the number of translations.), that did not include all possible words in each language.

Lastly, each person who studies the Bible is going to come to a different interpretation of passages. What one person views as an admonition to "love thy neighbor" another might come to view as an suggestion to go over and have sex with the girl next door. That's extreme, but I trust you take my point.

PS: Oh, incidentally I don't believe in hell, so I'll see the people who do bad things in life wandering in a sort of limbo until they manage to ask God for forgiveness and are lifted up to Heaven, or whatever you want to call it. I have what could be called an idealistic view of things, but it's what I believe, so there.

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:18 pm

But you still believe that the bible is the word of God.

I view the bible as poor a guide to living a good life as the Illiad and the Oddessy.

Lowky · Post by **Lowky** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:03 pm

Linkara wrote:Ah, you misunderstand me a bit. ^_~ When I say believe in the Christian God and believe he's the correct God, I don't mean anyone else's religious beliefs are necessarily wrong or going to get them sent to hell. I believe in the Christian God who's loving, caring, and all-knowing. In fact, if God was to be so petty as to not permit people into heaven just because they didn't believe in him but still lived a good life, I'd be over to the dark side so fast you wouldn't have time to blink.

Well here's something to bake your noodle. How can you know that the Christian God is loving, caring and all-knowing. To define Good God created Evil. Therefore God and the Devil are the same being just different aspects. God is not a wonderful being, he's a twisted sadistic, DID suffering individual.

At least for the most part prior to the rise of Christianity, the other religions never said their god(s) was all good etc. Look at how petty the gods are in greek, roman, and nordic religions for example. Hell they all fostered zoophilic behavior in their worshipers. Turning into bulls, swans, horeses etc. for trysts with women. (of course maybe this was just good pr on women of loose morals

)

Kingofthemorlocks · Post by **Kingofthemorlocks** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:38 pm

Buddha Sakyamuni, as he lay dying in his 80th year of life, gathered his followers and said, "I have gotten you started on the path, with my ideas. You must figure the rest out for yourselves." and having said this, the Buddha passed on.

That's all I have to say on the topic of religion.