Hard Onions

[Lukia]

Minor quibble: Sabbath - the biblical day of rest - is in fact on Saturday. To be more precise, it starts on Friday at sunset and ends on Saturday at sunset (Judaism 101. How Sunday became the "day of rest" of many Christian churches is beyond me.)

::nod nod:: Exactly. Things get changed around with time. I wouldn't be surprised if, somewhere in history, everyone collectivly forgot what day it was, so that Monday is actually Tuesday, and so on.

I wasn't very into religion when I got the job and agreed to the Sunday thing, so I do feel some obligation there. However, I know if working those few hours prevents me from going to church or in some other way hampers my ability to have a relationship with God, I should just tell my boss to make me work an extra Saturday a month, instead of that Sunday.

I like the general idea everyone has of "don't be a jerk." I think this is very true. One of my friends was talking about a debate she had with a girl who believed that, once you accept Jesus, you can do whatever you want, and always be forgiven, incuding mass murder. What I believe is that yes, we will make mistakes. The important point is to try and avoid them, to rectify what you can, and to try to make the world better.

A good example another friend gave was of a brother and sister. The sister says something mean and upsets her brother. Later she feels bad and asks God for forgiveness. Okay, a good start, but her brother still feels bad. She needs to help him, too.

I've been trying to decide what kind of Christian I'll be. I don't want to go out into the streets and shout at the tops of my lungs about how everyone is doing things wrong. I think people need to come to God in their own way. My parents allowed my sister and I to find our own faith. As a result, I wasn't just raised to be Christian. I chose to be. I want to be the kind of Christian my friends have been to me: I'm there to talk to you, I'm there to help you, and if you ever are thinking that maybe you need a little more faith in your life, I'll be there to help you along.

I'm unsure about how to handle that with my own children. Part of my issue is that my boyfriend of two years is Jewish/Scientologist/Buh? A few days ago, I realized that part of why I haven't been able to make more progress towards finding faith is that I was worried about what he'd think, so I asked him if we could take a break from dating until I "find myself". He took it well, but I'm nervous. Can I ask you guys what you think about interfaith marriages?

[MikeVanPelt]

Part of my issue is that my boyfriend of two years is Jewish/Scientologist/Buh? A few days ago, I realized that part of why I haven't been able to make more progress towards finding faith is that I was worried about what he'd think, so I asked him if we could take a break from dating until I "find myself". He took it well, but I'm nervous. Can I ask you guys what you think about interfaith marriages?

Apart from warnings about "being unequally yoked" with a non-Christian spouse.... Scientology is a very dangerous special case.

DO NOT do anything with them that sounds like "Purification rundown" or "purif"; they load you up with enough niacin to cause liver damage.

Look up the "Xenu" story on the Internet. Scientology will charge you $250,000.00 or so in "auditing fees" before they tell you this part. Know what you're getting into before you ever take the first tiny step in that direction.

[Narnian]

It is a sad fact, but yes, a saved person CAN lose his salvation. Now from there we could move on to whether that person was sincere in his original prayer or not or whether he was originally part of us or not, but what is important here is that one stands firm against temptation, and then against persecution.

How can you lose eternal life by definition? The point I believe RH is making is that all those who fall away were not believers in the first place.

Theology must be based on a systematic approach that looks at all of what the Bible says about a subject. Read what Romans 8 says about the believers place:

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"For a believer to lose his salvation would demand a reversal and an undoing of all the preceding works of the Father, Son, and Spirit. The key issue in the discussion of the believer's security concerns the issue of who does the saving. If man is responsible for securing his salvation, then he can be lost; if God secures the person's salvation, then the person is forever secure."

[The JAM]

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8

¡Zacatepóngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]

[Lukia]

Apart from warnings about "being unequally yoked" with a non-Christian spouse.... Scientology is a very dangerous special case.

DO NOT do anything with them that sounds like "Purification rundown" or "purif"; they load you up with enough niacin to cause liver damage.

Look up the "Xenu" story on the Internet. Scientology will charge you $250,000.00 or so in "auditing fees" before they tell you this part. Know what you're getting into before you ever take the first tiny step in that direction.

Oh, I did a little research on that stuff over summer. From what he's told me, his involvement in Scientology has been going to study-skills classes. And there is NO WAY anyone in his family has put down enough for Xenu stuff. A friend of his actually mentioned it, and he was highly offended. I think he doesn't really believe in it as a religion, but more of as a self-improvement tool, but you never know.

I kind of realized today that, while I've been doing all this thinking and looking into finding a church where I'll be comfortable, I've never given much thought to asking him if he'd at least try attending. After all, one reason I'm getting more into faith is that I went to church and I felt GOOD.

I'd been feeling pretty bad about myself, for various reasons, and going to church reminded me that I'm human. I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist, and combine that with a family history of anxiety problems, and you get someone who is convinced that God is going to strike them down for, say, accidentally taking a pen after signing something. Going to church gave me the message I keep repeating on this board: You're not perfect, you're not expected to be perfect, but just try to be good.

So, yes, I think once I find a church I'd like to regularly attend, or perhaps even before, I will ask him if he'd like to attend with me. Who knows, he may like it, as well. He may even, GASP! convert! Heh...at the very least, he'll know what kind of church and church-people I'm involved with, and hopefully he'll approve of them.

Oh, and the unequally yoked thing...I think that was mostly a concern about SERIOUS differences in how people live. Like a Christain marrying a Wiccan, for example. All in all, my boyfriend is a pretty good guy, and we share a lot of the same values. My big thought comes down to wondering about how we'd raise children. That's something I'm still working out on my own.

[Calbeck]

were the angels made BY Him, or did they come into existence WITH Him? In the first event, wouldn't they amount to artificial intelligence?

I don't see why it's any different from God creating humans, who are not AI. Actually, I find it likely that the angels in heaven, being unfallen, have more free will than we do.

Well, the angels theoretically preceded life. And, if I'm not misremembering, there was a point where there was a God but not any angels. That would suggest angels are a matter of constructed energy patterns.

Also, I don't think God actually grants or creates free will. I think that was the whole point of the Tree of Knowledge --- Adam demonstrates free will, in that he chooses to eat the fruit even though God Himself has said not to. I think God set up the Garden as a means of determining whether or not His creation was yet fit to see to its own needs, without His direct providence or guidance, on its own in the larger world beyond Eden.

As I understand it, every angel decided, pretty much upon creation, whether (s)he loved God or not and then acted accordingly. I do not know why Lucifer, who must have known what was coming to him, would have the distaste to forsake it all in a self-deception that he could do better. But perhaps it's just as well that we don't relate to him of all entities.

"Relate" isn't the concern here. It's motive. And supposedly Lucifer talked a third of the angels into joining his rebellion. So they were certainly capable of changing their minds...at least, when "directed" to do so.

Like C.S. Lewis, I don't think that God and heaven are best expressed thru double negatives. Try replacing that phrase with something like "Love God and all his works."

You can do that, though, and still be an Asshole. Especially since "works" becomes a potentially interpretive term. So does "love". "Don't be an Asshole" pretty much sums it up, and frankly I think that's what "knowledge of sin" amounts to anyways --- we KNOW when we're being Assholes, so...

[MikeVanPelt]

Oh, I did a little research on that stuff over summer. From what he's told me, his involvement in Scientology has been going to study-skills classes. And there is NO WAY anyone in his family has put down enough for Xenu stuff.

Well, be careful. Scientologists are subjected to intense pressure to "work their way up the Bridge" by doing lots of auditing sessions, to the tune of $700/hour and up. Seems there's always another breakthrough "just around the corner, all you need is a few more hours on the cans." There's also a lot of pressure to "pre-pay" for services, which won't be refunded if you decide to leave, or if they just never get around to providing the paid-for services.

My big thought comes down to wondering about how we'd raise children. That's something I'm still working out on my own.

That's something you really want the two of you to have worked out together and agreed to before there are children.

[Deckard Canine]

we KNOW when we're being Assholes

Unfortunately, personal retrospection tells me that's not always true.

Can I ask you guys what you think about interfaith marriages?

As it happens, I am a product of an interfaith marriage. Neither parent's parents were happy about it, and my mother's father didn't even attend the wedding, but everyone got over their displeasure in time and learned to love their in-laws.

Only thing is, neither of my parents is all that religious. They observe Jewish holidays mainly out of respect to my dad's heritage, and secular Christmas and Easter celebrations form the extent of their Christian rituality. For someone like me, it wouldn't make much sense to marry outside my faith.

Jewish/Scientologist/Buh?

Hm, the Church Of Buh. I guess it teaches that many of us are going to Huh.

[Narnian]

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8

Unfortunately this does not support your point at all - it says exactly the opposite of what you think it says. The only interpretation that conforms to the rest of scripture is that you cannot lose you salvation and get it back - that would require Jesus to die again for you. In short the first time he died it just wasn't good enough, it wasn't sufficient if you can lose your salvation.

So if you say you can lose your salvation you are really saying Jesus did not do a good enough job. I don't think you believe that.

[Madmoonie]

Actually, what I think he was trying to point out is that it is impossible to see GOD for those who do not know HIM.

[The JAM]

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.


No, what I'm saying is that Salvation, being a gift, can be rejected later on and one can deny being Yeshua before men, if that weren't possible, Yeshua wouldn't have warned us about it. Also:

Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Ezekiel 33

Note that the warning to the righteous is given 4 times.
Yes, we're under grace now, but would anyone truly want to take a chance backsliding?


¡Zacatepóngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]

[Lukia]

My big thought comes down to wondering about how we'd raise children. That's something I'm still working out on my own.

That's something you really want the two of you to have worked out together and agreed to before there are children.

Oh, well, of course! I can't imagine what kind of drama thought would bring up...

The boy: "Oh, honey, look at our new daughter!"
Me: "Yes, she's so precious! I can't wait until be Baptise her!"
The boy: "...baptise?"

Yeah, there are some things you need to discuss bofere the kids come. In fact, it's best to discuss this before marriage.

I saw a book I'd like to get, something along the lines of "1000 Questions to Ask Before You Get Married." I think the main reason so many marriages fail nowadays isn't a lack of love, but a lack of knowledge. I think Dr. Laura calls it "planning for the wedding, but not the marriage."

Ah, Dr. Laura...how you often enrage me, but also make so much sense the rest of the time...

[Mayihelpyou]

Ah yes, your belief is god is a purly spiritual matter.

So, natually, you are against religion in politics, religion in schools, churches tax-exempt status, and any special dispenstations for religion? After all, those would make your belief in god others people's buisness, as it now effects them.

Yes.. actually I am. But that's not what happens, is it? My daughter can't color a picture of a stable at Christmas time because that carries "Religious" ramifications, but they're taught the signifigance of the dradle. And don't say that I'm being antisemitic, I'm just using that as a specific example. If you want separation of Church and State, then let's really have separation of Church and State.

The problem I have with politics is this whole "representation of the people" dealy.. which we don't have. What we have is all these people in government whom we rely upon to represent us as a whole who carry their own agendas into their positions. Usually in regards to religion, civil matters, etc, and for a lot of those positions, not every Americans' reasoning is religious. For example, I am pro-life, but not because I'm religious. Because I was a baby that was almost aborted, and gee... I'm quite happy about the fact I wasn't.

My problem is you are projecting your bitterness at being judged by the people around you upon anyone else who states they tend toward moralistic and/or spiritualism conservatism. If you're going to wail about people judging you because you're an atheist.. don't wail at people when they tell you they believe in a stiffer morality and conservatism.. and just for the record because I didn't state that in my original post.. I do believe in God. Big G, btw hoss.

[Lazerus]

Ah yes, your belief is god is a purly spiritual matter.

So, natually, you are against religion in politics, religion in schools, churches tax-exempt status, and any special dispenstations for religion? After all, those would make your belief in god others people's buisness, as it now effects them.

Yes.. actually I am. But that's not what happens, is it? My daughter can't color a picture of a stable at Christmas time because that carries "Religious" ramifications, but they're taught the signifigance of the dradle. And don't say that I'm being antisemitic, I'm just using that as a specific example. If you want separation of Church and State, then let's really have separation of Church and State.

The problem I have with politics is this whole "representation of the people" dealy.. which we don't have. What we have is all these people in government whom we rely upon to represent us as a whole who carry their own agendas into their positions. Usually in regards to religion, civil matters, etc, and for a lot of those positions, not every Americans' reasoning is religious. For example, I am pro-life, but not because I'm religious. Because I was a baby that was almost aborted, and gee... I'm quite happy about the fact I wasn't.

My problem is you are projecting your bitterness at being judged by the people around you upon anyone else who states they tend toward moralistic and/or spiritualism conservatism. If you're going to wail about people judging you because you're an atheist.. don't wail at people when they tell you they believe in a stiffer morality and conservatism.. and just for the record because I didn't state that in my original post.. I do believe in God. Big G, btw hoss.

Except that you can't have that total separation. Your pro-life for non big-G reasons, okay, good for you. But there are a lot of people who are pro-life purly because of their religion. And their harrasment, votes, bashing, etc, makes life worse for women. So their religion is not a purly spiritual matter.

And yes, I am bitter, thank you for noticing, but not for the reasons your thinking.

[Mayihelpyou]

Except that you can't have that total separation. Your pro-life for non big-G reasons, okay, good for you. But there are a lot of people who are pro-life purly because of their religion. And their harrasment, votes, bashing, etc, makes life worse for women. So their religion is not a purly spiritual matter.

And yes, I am bitter, thank you for noticing, but not for the reasons your thinking.

Exactly, but if there can't be that total separation.. what is the solution? There isn't one really. Which is where the non-spiritual matters come in.
We're just arguing semantics here.. And that was not the purpose of this thread.

To return to the topic, it is Mr. Hayes website. He can spout anything he chooses. Which IS protected by the state regardless of his religious leanings. I was merely applauding his conservatism.

Off the topic and the last thing I'll say in this matter.. Pro-life/Pro-choice issues are so explosive because it affects people's "Conveniences". Not just religious ethos or societal ethos.. but whether or not it's "convenient" to have a child. You can believe what you want about embryos.. where "life" actually is conceived at.. but what all ignore is the potential. My mother (and I use that term loosely because my MOM raised me with more love than anyone can imagine) was inconvenienced and scared when she found she was pregnant with me. She was also a heavy user. So, by all logic commonly used, I should have been aborted. No father, young woman, absurdly shaky future, scared, inconvenienced, and a drug user. Where is my potential? I was born addicted to heroin. I was "lost" the first three years of my life, in tow between New Orleans and Florida. I didn't even speak until I was 4. Yet, somehow.. Hrmm.. I was labelled a child prodigy by the time I was 9, a proficient pianist.. I graduated 10th in my class. Now granted, I didn't finish college, but that was my own decision. I decided that family was more important. I married, have stayed in said marriage for 13 years. I have a beautiful child, whom I care deeply about. I don't know about my past, but I sure know about my future and the future of my child. This was and still is my potential and THIS is my reason for my belief in God. And my reason for my pro-life beliefs. I just donated 2 pieces of my art to BirthRights.

But I digress, that is my belief.. not yours. And you have your right to believe what you choose. But place yourself in someone else's shoes when you see a person harrassing someone else in regards to abortion.

If you have/had children, specifically a daughter, you want her to be able to get an abortion at the age of 14 without your knowledge? Tough issue. Have a good day.. and have enjoyed the discussion. I'll not say anything else off topic.

[Capnregex]

So if you say you can lose your salvation you are really saying Jesus did not do a good enough job. I don't think you believe that.

This begs the question, What was the job of Jesus? What is salvation?

In essence, this comes in three parts..

1) Teach the people... this is the same as any other prophet. This aspect of Jesus Christs job was not unique to him.

2) Overcome the limitations of physical death. This is the effect of Adams fall, which introduced imperfections into the systems here on earth. Christ overcame this by taking his body back the third day after his death, which opened the door for others to take their bodies back as well. This is a free gift to all who accept it. The timing for each individual may vary.

3) Overcome the limitations of sin. Because Adam fell, we all get a world of contrast between good and evil. In the process of learning to choose between them, we make mistakes. It's part of the learning process. If we burn our hand touching a hot pot, we say "Ouch, that hurt. I don't want to do that again.." and since we stop touching the hot pots, our hand heals.
Christ overcoming the limitations of sin allow us to heal spiritually and emotionally from the effects of sin.. Basically allowing us to get over it.

If we choose to keep touching the pot, our body never gets the chance to heal. We never "get over it". This is the condition of someone who chooses sin. It's not so much that they are judged, their pain is a natural consequence of their actions. Until they stop hurting themselves, there is not alot the healer can do to help.

When those that first choose to accept all the blessings of Christ, including the Holy Spirit, which I haven't discussed, and then they choose to throw it all in Christ's face, and go the other way, they tend to become self decieved such that they enjoy burning themselves and the resulting pain. When they get to that point, there is very little that Christ can do to reach them. Because they choose it. In essence, they have already been to heaven, and they chose hell. Christ won't save them against their will.

Now, before you start complaining, ask yourself... have you been to Heaven? Have you then chosen Hell? No? well, don't worry about it then.

Do you have persistant pain in your life, and you don't know why? Would it be worth learning a little about the healer to find out how to get rid of it?
Would it be worth it to stop touching the pot?

Christ is there to help, but first we must choose to accept that help, and follow the perscription he gives. He won't force feed it to us.
[/b]

[Lazerus]

Except that you can't have that total separation. Your pro-life for non big-G reasons, okay, good for you. But there are a lot of people who are pro-life purly because of their religion. And their harrasment, votes, bashing, etc, makes life worse for women. So their religion is not a purly spiritual matter.

And yes, I am bitter, thank you for noticing, but not for the reasons your thinking.

Exactly, but if there can't be that total separation.. what is the solution? There isn't one really. Which is where the non-spiritual matters come in.
We're just arguing semantics here.. And that was not the purpose of this thread.

To return to the topic, it is Mr. Hayes website. He can spout anything he chooses. Which IS protected by the state regardless of his religious leanings. I was merely applauding his conservatism.

Off the topic and the last thing I'll say in this matter.. Pro-life/Pro-choice issues are so explosive because it affects people's "Conveniences". Not just religious ethos or societal ethos.. but whether or not it's "convenient" to have a child. You can believe what you want about embryos.. where "life" actually is conceived at.. but what all ignore is the potential. My mother (and I use that term loosely because my MOM raised me with more love than anyone can imagine) was inconvenienced and scared when she found she was pregnant with me. She was also a heavy user. So, by all logic commonly used, I should have been aborted. No father, young woman, absurdly shaky future, scared, inconvenienced, and a drug user. Where is my potential? I was born addicted to heroin. I was "lost" the first three years of my life, in tow between New Orleans and Florida. I didn't even speak until I was 4. Yet, somehow.. Hrmm.. I was labelled a child prodigy by the time I was 9, a proficient pianist.. I graduated 10th in my class. Now granted, I didn't finish college, but that was my own decision. I decided that family was more important. I married, have stayed in said marriage for 13 years. I have a beautiful child, whom I care deeply about. I don't know about my past, but I sure know about my future and the future of my child. This was and still is my potential and THIS is my reason for my belief in God. And my reason for my pro-life beliefs. I just donated 2 pieces of my art to BirthRights.

But I digress, that is my belief.. not yours. And you have your right to believe what you choose. But place yourself in someone else's shoes when you see a person harrassing someone else in regards to abortion.

If you have/had children, specifically a daughter, you want her to be able to get an abortion at the age of 14 without your knowledge? Tough issue. Have a good day.. and have enjoyed the discussion. I'll not say anything else off topic.

Given that I would have to truly hate my daughter to force her to have a child at age 14.....I'm going to have to go with a solid yes on that one.

As for potential......every woman who does not have serious medical problems has the potential to bear about 12 children in her life, if she gets an early start. Are you against women having less then 12 kids?

[Narnian]

No, what I'm saying is that Salvation, being a gift, can be rejected later on and one can deny being Yeshua before men, if that weren't possible, Yeshua wouldn't have warned us about it. Also:

Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Ezekiel 33

Note that the warning to the righteous is given 4 times.
Yes, we're under grace now, but would anyone truly want to take a chance backsliding?

Who are the righteous here - those who are called by God, or the self righteous? Is this physical death or spiritual death? It is clear in Paul's letter to the Corinthians that God may take Christians home early if they insist on living a life in sin.

Look at some of the scriptures that deal with assurance (all quotes ESV):

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

We have eternal life - it is not a future promise. If you can lose eternal life then it isn't very eternal. Why do you think God shooed Adam and Eve out of the garden before they could eat of the Tree of Life?

Romans 8:38-39 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What can separate us from God? Nothing. Period.

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Are you saying you are more powerful than the Father and can snatch yourself out of his hand?

Eph. 1:3-5 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Before the foundation of the world he chose his people. Again if you say you can lose your salvation you are saying God made a mistake.

Look at Paul's discussion of grace in Romans chapter 6. He clearly points out that God's grace is sufficient to cover any sin. In fact the more we sin the more God will pour out his grace. But he also reminds us we are dead to sin and slaves to righteousness and to continue in sin is a mockery of the death Chrst died for us.

Those who "fall away" either were not Christians in the first place (either they did not uderstand or were going through the motions because it was expected of parent/spouse/friend/church) or they are Christians who will return to the fold or get in, so to speak, by the skin of their teeth.

[Mayihelpyou]

Given that I would have to truly hate my daughter to force her to have a child at age 14.....I'm going to have to go with a solid yes on that one.

As for potential......every woman who does not have serious medical problems has the potential to bear about 12 children in her life, if she gets an early start. Are you against women having less then 12 kids?

Again, you're reading more into what I said. I said "without your knowledge". There are people right now who take their children to abortion clinics. I disagree with that, but hey.. your kid. And an abortion can have much greater ramifications in the long run for the individual.

And as for the potential part.. you're doing what every single-minded liberal person does (and every single minded right wing as well.. let's not be discriminatory) and pushing forth an extreme to prove a devil's advocate point. We disagree on what's right. The end game of this issue will be decided by who gets put in office, or who holds power in our legislative system. Not by you or me..
I may very well be able to bear 12 children. Doesn't mean it would be healthy for me to bear 12 children. To this end, I use birth control methods. And I was taught to be abstinent, prior to adulthood (and please note, I did not say marriage). There's a big difference between being wise with taking precaution and damage control. When did abortion become synonymous with "birth control"? If I got pregnant now, it would be very inconvenient. It would be financially disastrous. But I would get through it.. like the billions of poor, financially unready, monstrously inept people before me. And who knows, that child might be the next Ghandi.

We cannot agree on this.. to continue arguing would be silly. No matter what I say, there is a position that you could throw at me that would be logically opposite.. and visa versa for me. You're removing morality from the equation and you feel like this gives you credibility. Good luck with that in the future, hoss. I won't respond to any further baiting.

[The JAM]

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.

Romans 8:38-39 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What can separate us from God? Nothing. Period.

Sorry, but you're omitting one word. Nothing can separate us from the LOVE of God. Sinners and fallen angels will spend eternity separated from God, despite the fact that He still loves them.

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Are you saying you are more powerful than the Father and can snatch yourself out of his hand?

No. Willingly jumping out seems easier.

Eph. 1:3-5 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Before the foundation of the world he chose his people. Again if you say you can lose your salvation you are saying God made a mistake.

Being predestined for salvation was the DEFAULT goal of every human being. They can still choose to forego that destiny and select another.

Look at Paul's discussion of grace in Romans chapter 6. He clearly points out that God's grace is sufficient to cover any sin. In fact the more we sin the more God will pour out his grace. But he also reminds us we are dead to sin and slaves to righteousness and to continue in sin is a mockery of the death Chrst died for us.

Those who "fall away" either were not Christians in the first place (either they did not uderstand or were going through the motions because it was expected of parent/spouse/friend/church) or they are Christians who will return to the fold or get in, so to speak, by the skin of their teeth.

All will STILL have to go through the Judgement Seat of Christ, if not the Great White Throne.

What had Shaul worried of being disqualified/a castaway, even though he preached to millions, that he had to discipline his body even while in the middle of his ministry? He himself had to make a BIG effort to keep himself pure...shouldn't we?


¡Zacatepóngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]