Hard Onions

[Calbeck]

If you honestly believe god will send me to hell for not believing in him, say it!

Speaking as a Christian who disagrees with certain aspects of the faith as expounded by RH, I don't think God automatically sends anyone to Hell. Not even those who don't believe in Him (do babies, who know nothing of God, go to Hell upon dying?).

Let this be a lesson to y'all. Never argue theology in a forum moderated by the son of a Baptist preacher!

Too late. -:D

My faith is based in large part on what I believe I to be the FUNCTION of mankind.

I believe, for instance, that God either existed from the beginning of the Universe, or pre-dated it, and in either case was the instigator of the Big Bang. He formed the physical laws in those first instants and set them as binding. And He lived, moment by moment, throughout the billions of years between then and when the Earth began to coalesce from a ball of dust into a planet ("And the Earth was shapeless, and without form").

I believe God guided, at the very least, the progression of evolution from single-cell to the modern day. I believe that the "days" of Genesis mark epochs, not 24-hour periods, and I believe that the Fourth Day does not properly exist as it appears to have been originally part of the Second Day.

Such a thing would be readily explained by the numerology and Earth-centric ideologies in use by the early Church...six Days would be a mark of evil, seven is the Holy Number. But God creates nothing on the Seventh Day; He rests, instead. It is not therefore a Day of Creation, but the Day of Vacation. Splitting Day Two into separate Days, and adding the Day of Vacation, is the only way to arrive at Seven...the "magic number". Also, putting the creation of Earth before the Sun and Moon would have been a very Aristotelian ideal, very much in vogue with the pre-Galileo Church.

Put in this context, the land rising from the seas, the origin of life in those seas, moving to land animals and then birds, before the creation of humans...all of this is in line with modern scientific thought.

But going back to the Big Bang for a moment, and all the billions of years in between--- were the angels made BY Him, or did they come into existence WITH Him? In the first event, wouldn't they amount to artificial intelligence? Did Lucifer have free will, or was he built in order for God to have someone who would actually disagree with him, a form of sounding board? If he had free will, why did he rebel, "Paradise Lost" notwithstanding?

And if the angels are simply AIs with limited will, might not God get lonely for company that thinks --- in all ways --- for itself?

That, in my opinion, is the Purpose of Mankind. To provide God with company. And if you boil it down, the Bible really amounts to God saying "Don't Be an Asshole".

Therefore, that is the Purpose of Religion --- at least, its original intent --- God doesn't want Assholes in Heaven. Be an Asshole on Earth if you want, He won't stop you...but Heaven is invitation-only.

[The JAM]

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.


Keep in mind that salvation is by faith, and is completed only when we'll stand in front of God and He says "Well done, good and faithful servant". Like any gift, it can later be disregarded and even discarded, if a person wishes to return to his old ways. In Matthew 24 Yeshua warns that there will be a great "falling away", in Ephesians 4 we're warned about disqualification, and in Revelation 3 we're warned against "being neither hot nor cold".

"Work out/Complete/Fulfill your own salvation with fear and trembling"

¡Zacatepóngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]

[ImWACC0]

I strongly believe in just about everything that you have put into your comics:

*Fat women can, and are, beautiful (sorry, bad with names . . .beaver girl)

*People have the right to defend themselves (too many times to note)

*A fool is a fool, no mater how important others think they are. (Michel Moor type guy)

*America is basically a good place (mostly in Nip and Tuck)

Et cetera, Et cetera, Et cetera . . .

There is however two points that I wish to make:

(1) Back when Goblin Hallow was Under the Lemon Tree, you decided to put a New Age character as the "bad guy". (Mystic crystals + Incense + Wanting to shop without Christ = Bad Person) To me, that is generalizing.

(2) Now you seem to be complaining that people are generalizing about Cristian's. "I'm a christian because I told you I am" . . . "No, you are not. You don't do as Jesus said to do" . . . This is rather maddening from the outside.

But I could be wrong, lets look at the Gospel according to Jesus . . . Matthew, Mark, Luke, John . . . Hold on, where did it go?
We have a lot of hear say, but no writings of Jesus. Not even fresh thoughts, but written quite a few years after he passed on.

Don't kid yourself. If we accept the theology of Christianity, we accept that there is an advisory. The Father of Lies would like nothing more than to increase the severity current condition that RH illustrates.
It's a shame that the dupes that are the perpetrators of the anti-religious movement have been hoodwinked by the lies.

Yes, "If we accept the theology of Christianity", then that might be true. However, If we accept the theology of Wicca, Hinduism, Baha'i, then that is false.

I'm not trying to say that you don't have the right to state your beliefs on/in Your Comic and/or Your Forums. However, pointing out that one belief is the only right belief is bound to set you up for rebuttal.

Yes, I am dyslexic. And I truly do believe that pointing out my spelling and grammar mistakes points more to you ignorance, not mine.

[Wanderwolf]

Such a thing would be readily explained by the numerology and Earth-centric ideologies in use by the early Church...six Days would be a mark of evil, seven is the Holy Number. But God creates nothing on the Seventh Day; He rests, instead. It is not therefore a Day of Creation, but the Day of Vacation. Splitting Day Two into separate Days, and adding the Day of Vacation, is the only way to arrive at Seven...the "magic number". Also, putting the creation of Earth before the Sun and Moon would have been a very Aristotelian ideal, very much in vogue with the pre-Galileo Church.

Er, Calbeck? Genesis predates the Christian church, since it's out of the Torah. If you're going to say the numbers have been diddled, this one goes to the Jews. (Kidding, folks, Kidding...)

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer

[Sun tzu]

I don't think these are attacks on Christianity specifically, but upon government and government sponsored entities activly endorsing a religion.

Don't kid yourself. If we accept the theology of Christianity, we accept that there is an advisary. The Father of Lies would like nothing more than to increase the severity current condition that RH illustrates.
It's a shame that the dupes that are the perpetrators of the anti-religious movement have been hoodwinked by the lies.

Don't you think there is a certain...risk...in assuming that a movement of thought you disagree with is secretly controlled by an external, villainous force?

[Jwrebholz]

That, in my opinion, is the Purpose of Mankind. To provide God with company. And if you boil it down, the Bible really amounts to God saying "Don't Be an Asshole".

That's how I've always thought of it. Don't be an asshole. Blunt, to the point, easy to understand.

I can't say I disagree with anything Calbeck said. Even the heads of the Catholic Church have said the Bible is not to be taken absolutely literally. Couldn't "let there be light" be a metaphor for the big bang? Why not? When the Bible and Torah were originally written ages ago, they didn't have the terms to describe the things we know now--so they used other words that were close...but not really 100% accurate.

[Calbeck]

Couldn't "let there be light" be a metaphor for the big bang?

No need for metaphor. According to the process believed by science to have been necessary for the Big Bang to have taken place, photons were the very first noticable product. They had to be, because of their functions as massless particles. Mass itself had to wait a nano or two for the laws of physics to reform and allow its escape from the event center.

Er, Calbeck? Genesis predates the Christian church, since it's out of the Torah. If you're going to say the numbers have been diddled, this one goes to the Jews. (Kidding, folks, Kidding...)

Thank you for the correction, and yes you're quite right...still, the points remain the same: the Judaic church also was obsessed with numerology and terracentrism. Catholicism merely picked up the same ball and ran with it.

And I don't think the numbers have been "diddled", precisely --- I'm thinking in terms of a well-meaning early church leader who said to himself "five days? what holy significance is there in FIVE? well, maybe somebody got this wrong before, because OBVIOUSLY the Earth came before the Sun and Moon, it's the core of God's work! which would give us six days, that can't be right, it'd be unholy, aha! add in the day of rest, and you get seven...oh, how brilliant I am, wait 'til the others hear about this..."

Of course, I could be totally wrong myself, but hey, that's why it's just a theory. Maybe even only a hypothesis. -:D

[RHJunior]

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.


Keep in mind that salvation is by faith, and is completed only when we'll stand in front of God and He says "Well done, good and faithful servant".

That's a rather obvious misuse of semantics. "Well done" refers to our service in this life, not to our completion-- as if we were a steak on the grill.

Like any gift, it can later be disregarded and even discarded, if a person wishes to return to his old ways. In Matthew 24 Yeshua warns that there will be a great "falling away",

"If they were of us, they would not have departed from among us."

in Ephesians 4 we're warned about disqualification, and in Revelation 3 we're warned against "being neither hot nor cold".

"Work out/Complete/Fulfill your own salvation with fear and trembling"

It does not say "complete" or "fulfill" in that passage.
In fact we spent considerable time studying that passage in its entirety and precisely WHAT Paul meant by "work out your own salvation" not two weeks ago. Currently I am in a rush, but at a later time I will go over it with you point by point.


First off, you've ignored the passages I quoted, second, you're taking what YOU'RE quoting far out of context. Reading the entire passage at the LEAST is essential for complete understanding.


Glib quotes do not a work-around make. The fact remains that <I>you are not depending upon God's Grace... you are still depending upon your own righteousness. </i> Which is contrary to what Christ and his apostles taught, and is justified with misquotings and distortions.

[Mayihelpyou]

Please pardon my language, but bullshit.

I am an atheist living in the bible belt. I've been called amoral, stupid, insane, and even a minion of satan. Been told I'm going to hell, that jthat I'll burn for eternity, and all manner of other unpleasent things. It's miserable, annoying, and I infinitly prefer it to someone who hides what they believe behind a rose colored lens.

If you honestly believe god will send me to hell for not believing in him, say it! That's an important facat of your belief, not something you can handwave away with "Oh, but you didn't ask!". By filtering everything unpleasent out of what you believe, you turn what your saying from a statement of belief into propoganda.

In other words, your lying to make your position look better then it is.

I find hardline christans to, one the whole, be decididly unpleasent people. But at least with them, you know they honestly believe what their saying. With "moderates", trying to find out what they believe is like a struggle. It's hidden behind so much shiny-happy nonsense you almost have to beat it out of them.

And by saying you liked that part of what he said, your really doing a disservice to what good message was in there.

At what point did I say he was taking the unpleasant out of it? At what point did I lie about my beliefs? I merely said he wasn't being preachy about it and I raved about his morality and ethos (not his specific beliefs, mind you..) which isn't usually found in the more artistic/liberal universe.. One CAN be moral and have ethics without necessarily believing in the literalness of the bible. I agree with 99% of that part of his message. I don't exactly know (or didn't know prior to the second hard onions) what his exact beliefs are.
And what I like or dislike about his message is for my own opinion and does nothing to the service of his message. As an atheist, I'm sure you can appreciate that.. rather than PREACH to me about how I'm being hypocritical for beliefs I didn't even share with anyone at this post. I also live in the Bible Belt.. been disowned by my parents for not following their version of Christianity. So before you open your mouth and bray, read exactly what someone says and not what you think you're reading between the lines.

For your information, my beliefs are between myself and God. Not between you and me.

[Deckard Canine]

were the angels made BY Him, or did they come into existence WITH Him? In the first event, wouldn't they amount to artificial intelligence?

I don't see why it's any different from God creating humans, who are not AI. Actually, I find it likely that the angels in heaven, being unfallen, have more free will than we do.

Did Lucifer have free will, or was he built in order for God to have someone who would actually disagree with him, a form of sounding board? If he had free will, why did he rebel, "Paradise Lost" notwithstanding?

As I understand it, every angel decided, pretty much upon creation, whether (s)he loved God or not and then acted accordingly. I do not know why Lucifer, who must have known what was coming to him, would have the distaste to forsake it all in a self-deception that he could do better. But perhaps it's just as well that we don't relate to him of all entities.

the Bible really amounts to God saying "Don't Be an Asshole".

Like C.S. Lewis, I don't think that God and heaven are best expressed thru double negatives. Try replacing that phrase with something like "Love God and all his works."

[Shyal_malkes]

according to LDS beliefs, everyone was created by God. including Lucifer. hten God forsaw the fall of man and knew a means of redemption needed to occur. two plans for this redemption were brought forth, one by Jesus, and the other by Lucifer. (I'm shortening and paraphrasing and since time is short I don't have time to make references now). God chose Jesus' plan, Lucifer rebeled and became Satan, taking as many of God's children to his side as he could there was a war in heaven and Satan lost and was thrown out with all his followers. now the rest of his children (approximately 2/3rd of them, the rest were with Satan) are either waiting to be born physically, physically alive, or have already died and await the final judgement, while Satan and his followers try to tempt those they can.

also as far as grace/works and etc. if you believe and have faith your actions will reflect that, you can confess all you want but without living life like he wants you to to the best of your ability your actions speak far louder then your words. now I do not mean that you are saved by your works by any means, but your faith is confirmed by your works.

again time is short and this is just a brief synopsis from the top of my head.

[Wanderwolf]

Thank you, Ralph; I didn't know you read the Analytical-Literal Translation. (I prefer King James, myself.) You really should tell us where your quotes are from, however (that's called citation), since otherwise we might garner the false (of course) impression that you are attempting to hide information in obscurity.

The quotation you used is John I 2:19. In the KJV, it is:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Of course, you zoomed straight past an equally important verse:

John I 2:9 "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now."

(clears throat quietly)

In any event, John is (in your quotation), speaking of the antichrists: Those who deny both God and Jesus. You can find the entire chapter here, on Crosswalk.

As for the Pauline quotation, the passage is Philippians 2:12:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

(Pardon. I threw in verse 13.)

In any event, I'll close with the last two verses of 1 John 2:

"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

Yours truly,

The quote-citing,

Wanderer

[Earl McClaw]

...might not God get lonely for company that thinks --- in all ways --- for itself?

This specific point sort of brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "created in His image".

[The JAM]

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.


Point taken, Ralphie. I'm not denying that salvation is by faith. Salvation is indeed an act of faith that begins when you let Yeshua come in to you and redeem you and justify you before God. You accept that it happens by faith and you have the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, that it will indeed be consummated when you stand before God, and since it's now part of you (the Word made flesh within you) nothing outside of you can take it away.

Yeshua and Shaul still warned Christians to take care of their salvation. Like any faith promise, a person can later decide to discard it and fall away. The warnings to the churches (groups of born again Christians) of Asia Minor state that if they didn't straighten up, God Himself would come against them.

It is a sad fact, but yes, a saved person CAN lose his salvation. Now from there we could move on to whether that person was sincere in his original prayer or not or whether he was originally part of us or not, but what is important here is that one stands firm against temptation, and then against persecution.

He that endures to the end shall be saved.

Sorry about the confusion on Philippians, I was expanding on the original Greek word for "work out".


¡Zacatepóngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]

[Lukia]

I have to say, I'm right now trying to find my way in faith, and it's been kind of scarry, at times. Let me just state the basic things I understand:

1) I am not perfect, nor ever can be perfect while I live. Therefore, I look to God and Jesus to give me grace and forgive me my follies.
2) Just because anything can be forgiven doesn't mean you should be allowed to do whatever you please. Try to be the best person you can, and trust that that is enough.
3) In general, two rules I follow: Don't do harm, and if its not your, don't mess with it. For example, you're told not to covet. Okay, very well. But what harm is there towards working honestly towards a goal? I want my BA, therefore I study so that I can obtain it. It is therefore mine, I have earned it. Wrong would be if I think "you know, I deserve this BA more than anyone else, and I don't have to work for it. I'm just gonna make myself a little cheat sheet here..." That isn't working toward something. It's taking it.


I've been trying to work a lot of things out, and see what I believe. I've been told there a difference between faith and religion: religion is what you're told, faith is what you believe. For example, even though I've been going to a Catholic church lately, I don't necessarily think you need to tell a priest every bad deed you've done. You need to own up to them to yourself and to God. I think confessing to a priest is mainly for comfort and, more importantly, guidance.

I'm trying to be a better person, in general, but there are some things, I'm sad to say, that I can't do right now. My job, for one thing, requires I work about one Sunday a month. As a college student, it would be really hard to find a job that doesn't require that, or more. What I try to do is to go to work when necessary, but still find some way to attend mass that day. I also tend to not work the day before, so I might (though I haven't tried this yet) go to a Saturday night mass. I feel the message was less "don't do anything" and more "spend time reflecting on God and his works, and find a way to relax for a bit, so you don't drop dead from exhaustion." After all, I've met a few 7th day adventists. They celebrate their Sabbath on a Saturday, not Sunday. I can't honestly think that God is so mean that he would say "hey, wrong day, sorry".

I've got to say that I don't believe the Bible 100%. After all, there are contradictions even within it. After all, I've talked to a lot of Christains of late (I'm asking about different peoples churches."Church shopping" as my mom calls it) and I've yet to find one that doesn't eat pork.

But, yes, the main points, again, before I jet off to work/study: Believe in the goodness of God and Jesus, and just try to be a good person. You're always told that, if you fail at something, just try, try, try again.

[Sun tzu]

I'm trying to be a better person, in general, but there are some things, I'm sad to say, that I can't do right now. My job, for one thing, requires I work about one Sunday a month. As a college student, it would be really hard to find a job that doesn't require that, or more. What I try to do is to go to work when necessary, but still find some way to attend mass that day. I also tend to not work the day before, so I might (though I haven't tried this yet) go to a Saturday night mass. I feel the message was less "don't do anything" and more "spend time reflecting on God and his works, and find a way to relax for a bit, so you don't drop dead from exhaustion." After all, I've met a few 7th day adventists. They celebrate their Sabbath on a Saturday, not Sunday. I can't honestly think that God is so mean that he would say "hey, wrong day, sorry".

Minor quibble: Sabbath - the biblical day of rest - is in fact on Saturday. To be more precise, it starts on Friday at sunset and ends on Saturday at sunset (Judaism 101. How Sunday became the "day of rest" of many Christian churches is beyond me.)

[Deckard Canine]

there are contradictions even within it. After all, I've talked to a lot of Christains of late (I'm asking about different peoples churches."Church shopping" as my mom calls it) and I've yet to find one that doesn't eat pork.

Well, I don't eat pork for humanitarian reasons, but I understand why most Christians see no wrong in it. Read Acts 10:11-28.

[Lazerus]

Please pardon my language, but bullshit.

I am an atheist living in the bible belt. I've been called amoral, stupid, insane, and even a minion of satan. Been told I'm going to hell, that jthat I'll burn for eternity, and all manner of other unpleasent things. It's miserable, annoying, and I infinitly prefer it to someone who hides what they believe behind a rose colored lens.

If you honestly believe god will send me to hell for not believing in him, say it! That's an important facat of your belief, not something you can handwave away with "Oh, but you didn't ask!". By filtering everything unpleasent out of what you believe, you turn what your saying from a statement of belief into propoganda.

In other words, your lying to make your position look better then it is.

I find hardline christans to, one the whole, be decididly unpleasent people. But at least with them, you know they honestly believe what their saying. With "moderates", trying to find out what they believe is like a struggle. It's hidden behind so much shiny-happy nonsense you almost have to beat it out of them.

And by saying you liked that part of what he said, your really doing a disservice to what good message was in there.

At what point did I say he was taking the unpleasant out of it? At what point did I lie about my beliefs? I merely said he wasn't being preachy about it and I raved about his morality and ethos (not his specific beliefs, mind you..) which isn't usually found in the more artistic/liberal universe.. One CAN be moral and have ethics without necessarily believing in the literalness of the bible. I agree with 99% of that part of his message. I don't exactly know (or didn't know prior to the second hard onions) what his exact beliefs are.
And what I like or dislike about his message is for my own opinion and does nothing to the service of his message. As an atheist, I'm sure you can appreciate that.. rather than PREACH to me about how I'm being hypocritical for beliefs I didn't even share with anyone at this post. I also live in the Bible Belt.. been disowned by my parents for not following their version of Christianity. So before you open your mouth and bray, read exactly what someone says and not what you think you're reading between the lines.

For your information, my beliefs are between myself and God. Not between you and me.

Ah yes, your belief is god is a purly spiritual matter.

So, natually, you are against religion in politics, religion in schools, churches tax-exempt status, and any special dispenstations for religion? After all, those would make your belief in god others people's buisness, as it now effects them.

[Kinsfire]

That's how I've always thought of it. Don't be an asshole. Blunt, to the point, easy to understand.

I can't say I disagree with anything Calbeck said. Even the heads of the Catholic Church have said the Bible is not to be taken absolutely literally. Couldn't "let there be light" be a metaphor for the big bang? Why not? When the Bible and Torah were originally written ages ago, they didn't have the terms to describe the things we know now--so they used other words that were close...but not really 100% accurate.

I once saw in one of Spider Robinson's books a quote (I don't remember who he was quoting) that goes something like. "Live your life like the best party in the Universe is being held after you die, but no one who's an asshole gets an invite." (I know I got it wrong, but the feel is correct, I know that.)

That's how I try to live.

I disagree with RH's theology. But I will be strung up by my amle bits before I'll let anyone tell him that he can't espouse them to people. My ONLY codicil to that is that I ask the right to not have to listen.

Easy enough - if his message bothers me enough, I don't visit the comic anymore.

I'm still here, ain't I? *grin*

[Deckard Canine]

I once saw in one of Spider Robinson's books a quote (I don't remember who he was quoting) that goes something like. "Live your life like the best party in the Universe is being held after you die, but no one who's an asshole gets an invite."

And you can forget about crashing it.