how did it ever come to this...

Halo299 · Post by **Halo299** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:28 am

army of god

a youtube trailer for a movie that speaks to me of the things i have been telling people that they need to be afraid of.

i would love to see what would happen if a group of people started calling themselves the Army of Allah.

i don't think that there can be any doubt that some type of revolution is about to happen in america, the Christian Right is going to be on one side...but i don't think anyone has figured out who will be on the other.

'the game is set, and the peices are moving.'

-halo

Toawa · Post by **Toawa** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:17 am

While it would certainly be something to keep in mind, I nevertheless have a few concerns about this trailer:

1. I still have not researched the origins of this movie; it seems a bit too extreme to be real. Sure, you can say that I'm fiddling while Rome burns, but it does have a certain sensationalistic tint around it.

2. Consider the national reaction toward Fred Phelp's hijinks, which I believe is real disgust, not just political face-saving.

3. Even if this is real, it'll need a couple more decades of development before it can even hope to compare, threat-wise, with a certain other group who currently occupy our attention.

Infinity-Iz-Blue · Post by **Infinity-Iz-Blue** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:21 am

I believe there already is an Army of Allah, or words to that effect, and they're wanted across half the world.

What bother's me is the phrase 'this means war'. If it gets much further it won't just be the States that have a religious revelution on their hands, but Europe and probably Russia too. Once it gets that far, there's no stopping it. Africa, South America, the Middle East will all fall into multi-faith crusades, followed by the Far East as the whole world is dragged in by a chain of alliances and dependencies. And what will be the factions? Three, I think. Extremist Christians and associated idealogies on one side, Extremist Moslems and associated Idealogies on another and the moderate people of the world, the average worshipper in the street, peace-lovers and the folks who don't care what God's name is or what he looks like, so long as they're left alone. But they won't be, there'll be a policy of 'If you're not one of us, you're one of them' employed by both Extremist forces, we've already seen it voiced by both Bush and that elusive Bin Laden fellow, which means you'll either pick a faith or be forced into the third category, and your enemies will always outnumber you two to one...

Scary thought huh? Glad that the real world doesn't work like that aren't you?

But wait, we've already had a World War based on idealogy and it too had three factions. The Russians on the left, the Allies at the centre, and the Axis on the right. That one lasted a lot longer than history gives it credit for. It onlty really ended when the Berlin Wall was destroyed.

Jay042 · Post by **Jay042** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:24 am

It's scary, definitely. I do worry where these Evangelicals are taking organized religion. Fundamentalists messages are all you really here on the airwaves anymore, and any alternate views of Chirstianity are quick to be labled liberal heresy.

US Senator John Danforth (and ordained Episcipalian Minister) said it best: God is bigger than one narrow viewpoint or political party and those that try to force God into their little box are diminishishing the nature of divinity.

Mav · Post by **Mav** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:12 pm

I'll move to Australia or Japan. Seriously, fuck this country.

You guys saw the End of the World video right? I should be totally fine in Australia. I'll hang out with Hawaii and Alaska.

Squidflakes · Post by **Squidflakes** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:43 pm

I'm in a group that tracks and monitors a lot of Dominionist and evangelical groups that are trying to turn the US in to a theocracy.

If you want some more information on "Jesus Camp" head over to http://www.theocracywatch.org

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:26 pm

I should be totally fine in Australia

What the heck makes you think that? We've got discontented literally sewing their lips together just like the rest of world

Fnyunj · Post by **Fnyunj** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:18 pm

There *IS* a "party of God" - called Hezbollah. Yeah. That's right. And in America, they call it "God's Own Party" or the GOP.

I *do* believe we're headed for a serious, bloody revolution in America. A re-fighting of our old Civil War. I've heard that at least among the US Air Force, among the newer officers, the Academy has been taken over by Evangelicals to the point where there's official indoctrination (there's a Jewish officer suing the government because he could not complete his coursework - literally, without committing a crime of conscience and making dishonest statements of faith).

The USAF controls Space Command, which controls the ballistic missile force. You can imagine how bloody this conflict could be - particularly when the evangelicals believe in Armageddon, and we're nearing (or currently in) the biblical "end times".

However, I think that if we can get to 2010 without a major confrontation, the armchair eschatologists will realize that, no, the world is not coming to an end, we're not in the end-times (I've heard crackpot theories that the world ended in 2000, and Bush is the anti-Christ, etc.) - I believe there was similar political rumblings at the turn of the last millennium. So maybe they'll calm the fuck down. One can hope.

Squidflakes · Post by **Squidflakes** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:06 pm

Everyone always believes they live in the end times. There were Romans who wrote it on walls, monks in the 1300s who wrote entire plays about it being the end times, and the truth is.. there are no end times. Sure, there may be a catastrophy that happens some day that ranks right up there with fire and brimstone falling from the sky, but the chances of that are absurdly high.

Saddly, lots of fundies don't see the world this way.

Linkara · Post by **Linkara** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:44 pm

Well, thanks, Squiddies, for saying that my religion is wrong in believing there is an end times.

I think perhaps people are taking this a little too seriously. As a Christian myself, I didn't find anything entirely to bad about that youtube video. Sure, I get worried when they describe themselves as an army (remember, guys, how Jesus wanted us to convince the other side we were right, not just kill them? ^^;; )

I also think it's a little paranoid to believe that America is headed towards a theocracy or some type of civil war. All in all, for being a bunch of violent, gun-toting psychopaths as Americans are often portrayed as, we actually are a pretty peaceful bunch. Sure, we'll sometimes have rioting or looting, but let's take a take a look at two somewhat frequent issues. In the 2000 election, it took months of contention before the Supreme court finally said that Florida's supreme court couldn't decide the winner of the election and President Bush was declared the winner. It was a huge issue, pissed lots of people off, but was there massive rioting in the streets? Were people lining up to cause chaos and disruption across the country? No, we had a peaceful transition of power, as we do in EVERY election. Another one is the immigration debate. There were peaceful protests and marches across the USA despite strong feelings on every side concerning their opinions on the matter.

Now let's look at France. France's population likes to riot at the drop of a hat. The most recent example I can think of is where a law was being passed that made it easier for employers to fire their younger employees. I saw cars on fire, people running through the streets in rage, etc., etc. Now, what does this have to do with the theocracy issue? I just think that people here in the USA are more mellow than we give them credit for. Sure, we have fire in our voices, but not always a molotov cocktail in our hands. Those are the extremist crazies and they don't make up as large a population as people might seem to think.

As for the end times, I don't believe we're in the end times and I sure hope it doesn't happen soon. No offense to the idea of Jesus' second coming and glorious appearance and 1,000 years of peace and all, but I imagine my book would never sell and my webcomic would never be read if evil had been eliminated from the world. ^_~

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:56 am

Now let's look at France. France's population likes to riot at the drop of a hat. The most recent example I can think of is where a law was being passed that made it easier for employers to fire their younger employees.

I think that is somewhat trivializing the events that occured, and the society you're blithley generalizing - Bearing in mind that the law that was being passed effected the populous more deeply on social, ethnic (and thereby, to an extent, religious) levels, than on just the notion that "us kids might get sacked from our after school job at Mc Donalds."

It was a huge issue, pissed lots of people off, but was there massive rioting in the streets? Were people lining up to cause chaos and disruption across the country?

Believe it when I say that in other parts of the world there definitely would have been. Not that I mean that it would have been the right course of action (but considering the resulting goverment perhaps it might have been

) Perhaps the good folk in America feel that they have too much to lose by going apeshit - and fair play to that.

And finally, just to cover all bases of annoying you good folk -

Another one is the immigration debate. There were peaceful protests and marches across the USA despite strong feelings on every side concerning their opinions on the matter.

Building a dirty great big wall a la eastern bloc and Isreal is not what I'd call a peaceful response.... or intelligent... but heigh ho

Serpentrose · Post by **Serpentrose** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:40 am

I have no doubt that the focus will be on the sensational aspects of this, but I know from information gathered elsewhere that there are those who would turn children into Weapons of Christ. I do wonder what the long term psychological damage of this sort of thing is.

Toawa · Post by **Toawa** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:09 am

Lulujayne wrote:
Now let's look at France. France's population likes to riot at the drop of a hat. The most recent example I can think of is where a law was being passed that made it easier for employers to fire their younger employees.
I think that is somewhat trivializing the events that occured, and the society you're blithley generalizing - Bearing in mind that the law that was being passed effected the populous more deeply on social, ethnic (and thereby, to an extent, religious) levels, than on just the notion that "us kids might get sacked from our after school job at Mc Donalds."

The worst thing about that situation was that the law would (or will, I don't know if its still on the books) help alleviate France's 10% unemployment rate.

Lulujayne wrote:
It was a huge issue, pissed lots of people off, but was there massive rioting in the streets? Were people lining up to cause chaos and disruption across the country?
Believe it when I say that in other parts of the world there definitely would have been. Not that I mean that it would have been the right course of action (but considering the resulting goverment perhaps it might have been ) Perhaps the good folk in America feel that they have too much to lose by going apeshit - and fair play to that.

Oh yes indeed. I remember thinking just that when it happened; "If this were another country we'd be in a civil war right now..."

Lulujayne wrote:
Another one is the immigration debate. There were peaceful protests and marches across the USA despite strong feelings on every side concerning their opinions on the matter.
Building a dirty great big wall a la eastern bloc and Isreal is not what I'd call a peaceful response.... or intelligent... but heigh ho

In all fairness, the Iron Curtain was built to keep people in, not out, and was enforced with lethal force. And you might study the crime/terrorism rates in the areas of the San Diego/Israeli fences, respectively; both have dropped. (Israel is surrounded by countries that want it not to exist; they'd be nuts if they didn't have a fence.)

BriHahn · Post by **BriHahn** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:38 am

Annnnnnnd this would be why I'm a Unitarian Universalist.

Let me open with this: I have no problems with these people believing what they wish to believe; in fact, I encourage them to keep their faith, as it is obviously a very important part of their lives. My issue is with them trying to force their views on others (and I realize that not all Fundamentalist Christians or Muslims try to do that, but let's face it; you never hear about them BECAUSE they don't try to do so, and then because their peers are acting like insane Nazis, they get lumped in unfairly with the entire group). I personally feel that these people need to wake up and realize that we are in fact all individuals, and therefore we are all going to believe differently. Where in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt only believe one way, or thou art going to hell"? (I'm not going to get into my issues with what the Bible DOES say; suffice to say, I feel it contradicts itself too much and is the result of different views of the HUMANS who wrote it, not God as we used to be taught in Sunday School when I was a Methodist. Use it as a guide; don't say it's God's word, 'cause essentially, it's not; it's man's interpretation of God's word.) God is infinite; God is not one way, God is all ways. God accomodates all beliefs. Even atheism. In my opinion anyway.

I personally believe in an all-loving God; I do NOT believe that just because I don't fall in line with the quote-unquote "right way" that I will go to hell. I don't even BELIEVE in hell. I believe God forgives all sins before they are committed; even murder or genocide. What gives us a delay in "entering Heaven" is our own, personal sense of wrong. I firmly believe, after observing many people over the years and getting a degree in psychology, that we are hardest on ourselves; if we offend someone and are sorry for it, we will beat ourselves up over the situation long after the other person(s) have forgotten it. I believe that our essence, what makes us us, the "soul" if you will, is the part that knows what we have done in our lives and judges it good or bad, not God. We are our own judges, in essence. And if our "soul" feels we have done wrong, we are judged not worthy, and wander the earth or "in limbo" until we are able to find the strength to forgive ourselves and ask God to forgive us. And of course, God already has, so Heaven awaits.

Idealistic? Perhaps, but it is my belief, and I have faith that, regardless of how long it will take me, eventually I will be a part of the eternal bliss. As far as I'm concerned, I'm good to go; I'm not so sure about the Fundamentalists of either group. They seem to feel that if they don't get everyone to fall in line with their way of thinking that they'll fail to get into Heaven, and that just has me scratching my head in bewilderment.

My two cents; all standard disclaimers apply.

Awkwardschoolgirl · Post by **Awkwardschoolgirl** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:07 am

I don't particularily want to get into a heated discussion with anyone about my religious and/or political beliefs, but I'll say that I really want to see that movie.

Jay042 · Post by **Jay042** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:10 am

Fifty years ago, you usually see End Times Evangelicals standing on the street corner with the big sandwich board that read "The End is Nigh" looking like a crackpot.

Now, it's all over the religious TV networks, it's all across radio, and more websites than you really would care to know about. It's slickly delivered by guys in Armani suits with impressive looking video graphics and rousing music.

But they are still crackpots...

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:45 am

The closest the world ever got to ending was the Cuban missle crisis.

Major Maxillary · Post by **Major Maxillary** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:42 pm

Halo299 wrote:army of god

a youtube trailer for a movie that speaks to me of the things i have been telling people that they need to be afraid of.

i would love to see what would happen if a group of people started calling themselves the Army of Allah.

i don't think that there can be any doubt that some type of revolution is about to happen in america, the Christian Right is going to be on one side...but i don't think anyone has figured out who will be on the other.

'the game is set, and the peices are moving.'

-halo

The revolution isn't going to be as clean cut as that. few wars ever are nowadays. there will be many factions banding together into larger groups that favor their common agendas, and will try to live as they prefer, but they wil come into conflict with other commonwealth groups and will wind up fighting.

This won't happen until the American government actually colapses, which won't be too far off, judging by the way things are going.

I give it until 2015. shit should really start going down in 2009 or 2012.

I'm not going to say it's going to be the end of the world or anything, but I'm gonna try to avoid this crap.

Also, there's already an Army of God.

It's an African militia made up entirely of children who're led by an old lady.

They do bad things in the name of the lord.

Toawa · Post by **Toawa** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:04 pm

Major Maxillary wrote: The revolution isn't going to be as clean cut as that. few wars ever are nowadays. there will be many factions banding together into larger groups that favor their common agendas, and will try to live as they prefer, but they wil come into conflict with other commonwealth groups and will wind up fighting.

This won't happen until the American government actually colapses, which won't be too far off, judging by the way things are going.

I give it until 2015. shit should really start going down in 2009 or 2012.

An interesting choice of dates; the added instability of presidential elections could certainly push things over the edge, particularly if they are as close and as hot as the last two. OTOH, we could have another unifying event in the meantime.

We might very well see the rise of the burbclave. (Yeah, I re-read Snow Crash over the last couple of days...)

That being said, I don't think that these break-up scenarios are quite as likely as some others think. Yeah, we're not on a good road (I peg deficit and trade imbalance as two very large factors in this) but it'll be a while longer before that actually causes any collapse, and with any luck we will make the changes needed to avoid it.

(Must remember to get my FOID card at some point...)

Squidflakes · Post by **Squidflakes** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:18 pm

Toawa wrote:We might very well see the rise of the burbclave.

Welcome to the New Cephalopod Republic brother!

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