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Just to make things a little different, I want to put a pump action rifle in what is otherwise more or less a Dungeons & Dragons setting for a short story.

Could anyone here tell me if it would work? I mean, why do we only have pump-action shotguns? Could that level of society theoretically have made one (with a little extra inventing on the firearm side of things compared to us, naturally)?

Don't make me go to the chaos pit that is NanoWriMo. Not in November. *shudder*



- Joel Fagin

we don't have only pump-action shotguns. Haven't you ever seen terminator 2? Arnie uses a non-pump shotgun in that.

The problem with incorporating a shotgun as opposed to a normal rifle is that it requires actually making a real shell with explodey bits, as opposed to actual early rifles which were a ball packed down over the exploding gunpowder. So your somewhat advanced firearms technology would have to include making real enclosed shells/bullets.

Pump action is used because it's easy, it's just a matter of inventing the action where you can load multiple shells or bullets into a gun, then the pump ejects the empty shell or jacket and draws in another, which you keep doing until you're out of ammunition and have to reload. So it depends how many shells your shotgun can hold, some shotguns have triggers and you have to crack the barrel to actually load it, which means you basically get one shot with the thing before you have to reload.

Google shotguns to find out more. That's all I've got. But I'd say that to actually make a pump-action shotgun is probably a little advanced, but a single-load shotgun could be possible, it's just that in order to make that you have to assume they have the metalworking capabilites and engineering.

Joel Fagin wrote:Just to make things a little different, I want to put a pump action rifle in what is otherwise more or less a Dungeons & Dragons setting for a short story.

Could anyone here tell me if it would work? I mean, why do we only have pump-action shotguns? Could that level of society theoretically have made one (with a little extra inventing on the firearm side of things compared to us, naturally)?

Don't make me go to the chaos pit that is NanoWriMo. Not in November. *shudder*



- Joel Fagin

I don't see why you couldn't write a pump action rifle into your story. Certainly, a pump action rifle could be built. All the pumping does, like any other loading mechanism, is expel the spent cartridge, and put a new cartridge into the chamber. It's a simple machine, really.

Here's my theory on why we have no pump rifles:

We only have pump action shotguns because rifles are built for accuracy. Shotguns aren't. Pumping a gun after you fire it certainly throws your initial aim off, whereas bolt action or lever action, or a mechanical automatic or semi-automatic won't have nearly the same ill effect on your aim. That's why sniper rifles are bolt action guns. The only thing that moves is the bolt when you reload. The rest of the gun stays stationary. Plus, by the time someone got around to inventing a pump action shotgun, more suitable mechanisms existed for the precision weapon that is a rifle.

So, it's not a question of whether a pumping mechanism is too advanced for a rifle. It's more that rifle loading technology was already more advanced than a pump mechanism by the time it came about.

pump action shotguns have been around since the times of the american west.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1897

previous models included the lever-action shotguns

http://www.winchestercollector.org/guns/1887shot.shtml

*slaps forehead* Oh, of course!

I have no info for you Joel, but thanks for asking this question, as it's made me realize a glaring error in my own story .

I could see a pump action shotgun provided the following exist, or once existed:

1) gunpowder was common in your world. It'd have to be, for enough people to be familiar with it for someone to come up with cartridges.

2) Bamboo or the like exists - something fairly sturdy to make a shell out of that is so cheap nobody would give a drat about using it.

3) Lead smelting - you'd need someone who makes lead balls, or who uses lead to seal things. Lead should be common.

4) The world realizes the usefulness of springs.

5) Fireworks - particularly the childish "throw them at the ground and watch them go bang!" type pressure sensitive type.

With that, I could see a cartridge being made - some kind of pressure sensitive mix of explosive, gunpowder, gotton wadding, and pellets in a bamboo "shell" fired from a trumpet shaped barrel with a magazine of shells and a reloader that basically kicks the old shell out and loads the new shell.

It wouldn't be clean. You'd have to clean it regularly. It might jam sometimes. But I could see it working.

Big Metal Rod anyone?

I wouldn't use bamboo. If I get it, it's not supposed to be a common weapon, more like an elaborate gizmo made for someone who has too much money and/or imagination, so it can use bronze for shells.

BTW, I don't think gunpowder ect. is even necessary- you can patch it with magic...
Like, have a mage cast some kind of delayed fireball trap on an object that will serve as your "shell". It could be a magic gem of some kind, or a metal cylinder, depending on your rules.
For example, the fireball could be set to launch when something hits a certain point on the metal cylinder.
The pump action is simple enough(it's actually bolt action, but the pump action one doesn't have this detailed images )
So you can have some simple device, that holds your magic charched ammo, places them in position one by one, and triggers the fireball trap, launching the fireballs along the barrel...

(of course, the downside is dispel would ruin the weapon )

If you have magic you can make anything you want. I'd go with a hammer that's cold iron and shells full of pixie dust (and lead shot, natch). When the hammer breaks into the shell the dust explodes and the gun fires.
Or use blessed shells and a demon's tooth for a hammer -- same mechanism.
Dwarves/gnomes can work up the gears and such required to make it pump action.

rkolter wrote:
4) The world realizes the usefulness of springs.

No Springs! *Whistle*

/Coily

Wait, the BMR is actually in Baldurs gate 2, for reals?

That settles it, I need to get my hands on that series of games.

From what I'm reading (wikipedia, world.guns.ru) the primary advantages (read: reasons) for pump action being used in shotguns is flexibility (and popularity, the sound and sight of a pump action is well known).
A semi auto/self loading/recoil operated weapon recquires the ammunition being fired to have enough force to cycle the mechanism and load the next round. A pump action (or for that matter, any manually cycled weapons such as revolvers, bolt or lever action weapons, some types of electrical weapons might also apply, like chainguns) can use weaker ammunition, which would not normally have the level of force required to cycle the mechanism. Useful for less than lethal applications.
Of course, such mechanisms are also simpler in design than self loading variants, and far more reliable (if a round is a dud, just cycle the mechanism and try again). That reliability issue a large part in why revolvers are still around, though less important nowadays when the manufacturing quality (and therefore reliability) of "official" (military or law enforcement) grade ammunition has improved.

Also note the wiki article: "It is much faster than a bolt-action and somewhat faster than a lever-action, as it does not require the trigger hand to be removed from the trigger whilst reloading."
Which practically means that as long as there's ammo in the tube, you can fire almost as quickly as an automatic.

Oh, and: "When used in rifles, this action is also commonly called a slide action."
Maybe look for that? Looks like it's used for a couple of big game hunting weapons...

Cool, this is really useful everyone. Bamboo cartridges especially sounds a like a cool idea, being different to anything (I'm aware of) in history.

Thanks.

- Joel Fagin

if you want to see the most innovative of semi-auto and magazine-fed firearms, the american civil war has a few incarnations, most notably the henry repeating rifle, the model after that by the same company was called the winchester rifle, a lever action magazine fed rifle that's still made today.

alternatively, you could go with a revolver style loading system, which is also relatively simple, although they weren't a successful styling..



the henry repeating rifle loading schematics


hope this helps

-- Turnsky

oh, and before i forget, as for construction within a D&D setting, i guess anybody who's proficient in clockworks and such could make the mechanisms for it.

Thanks, Turnsky. You gave me a neat idea that lends a bit of depth. The guns are called "clockmakers" after their creator (or refiner).

- Joel Fagin

There's an old saying that might be adaptable too, though it refers to a different type of weapon (a rather specific type of revolver, actually)...

"God made some men bigger and stronger than others, but Mr. Colt made all men equal."

"And then Mr Maxim made some men more equal still"

"All men are equal, but men with nuclear weapons are more equal than others."

- Joel Fagin

"Four legs are okay, I guess."

Joel Fagin wrote:Thanks, Turnsky. You gave me a neat idea that lends a bit of depth. The guns are called "clockmakers" after their creator (or refiner).

- Joel Fagin

no prob, anytime.

I think one thing that you might want to consider (depending on whether the story is about how a shotgun would be out of place in the world or that they were a product of the world's technology) is necessity. The ol' mother of invention.

We have pump action shotguns in our world for... whatever needs pump action shotgunning. I'm afraid my personal experience doesn't go beyond zombie hordes in video games for that, but we made the dang things for a reason.

The nature of your fantasy shotguns would be defined by whatever it was that they were made to do, if it was just to shoot some dudes there's already lots of ways to do that in a fantasy setting that might have made the development path towards a shotgun seem unnecessary or impractical. I get all sorts of neat ideas trying to figure out what circumstances would lead to the development of a fantasy shotgun, anyway. Like maybe it was a failed attempt at a hand-held reloadable siege weapon. It doesn't knock down castle walls like a proper cannon, but boy, look at the mess it made of those footmen! Woo hoo!

I may be wrong, but I believe that the shotgun originated as a way to get birds and small critters. Because they're such small targets and so fast, it's hard to hit them with a rifle, but since a shotgun actually sprays shot all over, it widens the area you hit when you fire it, and so you could kill those lil bastards.

Of course they then "upgraded" from regular ol' birdshot to "I can blow a hole through your door with this" shot.

yessssssss