Catgirl drama! -- Split from naked thread (NSFW)

[MixedMyth]

I stand proud by my Simpson's analogy.

[Komiyan]

To be honest, it's better that she hears this from us rather than someone whom she copied from. That'd be a far worse situation, and it IS a habit that needs to be broken.

[[AOD]]

Hehe, the way you put it, Komiyan, you make it sound like a drug!

!~AOD

[MixedMyth]

Yup, it's a regular ol' intervention.

[Rkolter]

She needs to hear this too -

When you got called to task for tracing, it was obvious. And it was obvious to people who have done this since before you thought boys were anything but 'icky'. These people know.

If you had said, "I didn't see what the big deal was, and didn't know I was making a mistake. I'm sorry. Here's the original. I think I did the parts I did myself pretty well though."

You'd have entirely shortcutted this process. People would have told you about your shading and the like, and that would have pretty much ended it.

Instead, you proclaimed your innocence repeatedly. It's just not reasonable. We're not evil bastards - we just don't like it when someone takes someone else's work, and makes something similar, and takes credit for the whole thing.

If tracing is your way of learning, then trace. But next time post the original and your trace, and be open about it, and you won't get more than the occasional, "You're good enough now, so stop tracing." when you get there.

ok?

[EvilChihuahua]

I don't see how tracing will make you better at drawing. Unless you know how to build skeletons in a drawing, then all you'll know how to do is draw an outline of one thing. Unless your art is simplistic and cartoony, with recurring characters that don't change at all, like, say, Garfield, then tracing will do nothing for you.

[MixedMyth]

It helped me occasionally as a kid. It made me notice techniques that I don't think I would have gotten otherwise...how arm muscle acts when it bends, how a mouth goes...little things like that. But drawing from life was much more useful.

[Komiyan]

It can probably give you some hints on tricky stuff like foreshortning or anatomy. It's not the best way to learn, but it's a start.

[Joel Fagin]

It's useful for creases in clothes. In fact, I think it would be useful for all sorts of things as long as you go in with that thing in mind. That way, you'll be paying attention as you do it.

- Joel Fagin

[IVstudios]

I think tracing could be a good way to lear to draw details. It certainly won't help you with the basic structure but it could help with getting the feel for stuff like hair, eyes and accessories.

[McDuffies]

Tracing photographs helped me with two following things:
-Clothes folds
-Lines on the face
But all that could be taught from life drawing as well. On the other hand, it is very useless for anatomy, construction and such stuff.

Tracing of other artists is a different issue. In that case, you're not studying life, you're studying some other artist's stylisation of life. Problem is, you're supposed to find your own stylisation (that is, to find your art style) and doing it from some other stylisation (or various others)... you know, that's kind of like photographing a photograph, in the end you have a really blurry, murky representation of the object.

[Mvmarcz]

i thought I may say something



But I wont

[Webkilla]

I've used tracing for getting anatomy right a few times in my comic... although what I used for it was usualy just random stuff picked from my insanely vast piles of porn on my computer

to 'qoute' Kkatman on the subject:

"oh wouldn't it be nice to have a large online anatomy reference database - I wish someone would invent internet porn"


but appart from that, then I learned to draw as i do today from originally tracing off and copying the work of my favorite webcomics and anime... mind you, this was year before I started to make a webcomic, but still, it was how i learned - and I still pick up pointers when I see something nifty I just have to make a sketched copy of...


as for the whole pic that started the whole deal: thats a BAD trace/art-theft, no discussion. IMO there's a big difference between tracing over something and making something EXACTLY like the original... and then tracing over parts of small parts of it and incorporating that into original art you made yourself.

a good example is this:

http://psitech.comicgen.com/d/20060313.html (INSANELY NSFW...)

the only I won't fully take credit for on that page is the way the genitals on the poor lady are set up - got that from random porn on my computer... everything else I made myself - and if you saw the original reference pic you would never have guessed it.

EDIT:

just remembered: I actually often trace my own work as well! I got a huge A4 sized tablet, so whenever I make something that just really looks good I just print it out and stash it - then when I do my comic I can whip it out, retrace, and presto: quick and easy, yet very well done copy of whatever I wanted to draw. I got the idea from the guy who did Badly Drawn Kitties

[Kisai]

i thought I may say something



But I wont

You weren't tracing pinups last time I checked, but someone did identify at least one pose before, that's all I know. I also seem to remember you disclosing your sources. Nobody got mad.

This is a different situation, where neither the source has been disclosed, and the initial attempt was to pass off something they didn't even draw to claim credit.

I'll admit though that I'm probably not being fair towards JessicaRaven because I already knew she had been doing from the beginning of her comic and her "drawing skills" are not capable of this. Go through her archives, you'll see tracings from things that you probably would go "where I have I seen that before". Her art doesn't improve enough to even suggest that she could have even learned it.

Anyway. All I really want to see is "I'm sorry I tried to pass off [someone]'s work, I really traced it from [sitename]. I'll credit my sources from now on" . But instead we've had "I'm not tracing" which is a lie, and nobody here is fooled.

I'm still reminded from that scene from Chasing Amy

BANKY signs the book of another COLLECTOR.
COLLECTOR
So you draw this!
BANKY
(signing the comic)
I ink it and I m also the colorist.
The guy next to me draws it. But we
both came up with the characters,
COLLECTOR
What s that mean - you ink it !
BANKY
Well. It means that Holden draws the
pictures in pencil, and then he gives
it to me to go over in ink
COLLECTOR
So you just trace!
Banky freezes up. He composes himself and continues
signing.
BANKY
It s not tracing. I add depth and
shading to give the image mere
definition. Only then does the drawing
really take shape.
COLLECTOR
You go over what he draws with a pen -
that s tracing.
BANKY
(hands book back to
Collector)
Not really.
(calling out)
Next!
A LITTLE KID steps up but the Collector lingers.
COLLECTOR
Hey man. If somebody draws something
and then you draw the same thing right
on top of it, not going out-side the
designated original art what do call
that!
LITTLE KID
(shrugs)
I don t know. Tracing?
COLLECTOR
(to Banky)
See?
BANKY
It s not tracing.
COLLECTOR
Oh, but it is.
BANKY
(to Little Kid)
Do you want Lour book signed or what?
COLLECTOR
Hey - don t get all testy with him
just because you have a problem with
your station in life.
BANKY
I m secure with what I do.
COLLECTOR
Then say it - you re a tracer.
BANKY
(grabbing Little Kid s book)
How should I sign this?
LITTLE KID
(grabs book back)
I don t want you to sign it, I want
the guy that draws Bluntman and
Chronic to sign it. You re just a
tracer.

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/eas ... g_amy.html

Of course the difference with this thread is that JessicaRaven traced already finished work, which therefor doesn't add any value to the image.

[Jackhass]

Oh my God! I hope nobody ever sees the pictures I copied from videogame magazines when I was a kid or I'm in trouble.

Seriously people, this is ridiculous...you've all copied shit...only difference is this person posted theirs online. In some sketch thread on some smallish messageboard. They weren't out to make any money on this, haven't shown some long-standing habit of doing this. Their only crime was not mentioning that they copied the pose of another artist because they wanted people to compliment them (oh and by the way, professional comic book artists copy poses all the time...if it's good enough to be printed in DC or Marvel comic books, it's not that offensive that it showed up in a casual sketch thread on the Comicgen boards). So we have almost 100 posts telling them they're actually crap and a terrible person for doing something we've all done...mission accomplished I guess, let's move on.

[Joel Fagin]

... haven't shown some long-standing habit of doing this.

I haven't been following awfully closely but people have mentioned that their comic also looks like it uses tracings.

oh and by the way, professional comic book artists copy poses all the time..

And professional politicians lie, cheat, embezzle and line the pockets of their friends. Still aint right.

let's move on.

I'll go with that. Generally if you can't convince someone to admit they're wrong fairly sharpish, you never will. She's probably not even reading the thread any more.

- Joel Fagin

[Kisai]

you've all copied shit...only difference is this person posted theirs online. In some sketch thread on some smallish messageboard. They weren't out to make any money on this, haven't shown some long-standing habit of doing this.

Did you even read the thread?
http://triquetracats.comicgenesis.com/ -> 2003! She's been doing this for 3 years.

Yes, everyone has traced something at some point, most people develop their own style and grow out of it quickly. Your friends may tell you that you are great, and blah blah blah because you can fool them, but the rest of the internet has millions of eyeballs. So wholesale tracing, copying, and then trying to pass something off as your own is just plain stealing. You wouldn't copy a karaoke CD, record yourself on it, and then say you composed the music, wrote the lyrics and sung it. Your friends might say it's great, but anyone else who's familiar with the original will shoot you down.

There was a situation on a different forum, at a different time, where some obsessed fan, claimed to have wrote scripts to an anime. Yes some ENGLISH speaking American, claimed to have wrote scripts for a Japanese Anime, and dozens of movies. When called on it, he/she/it? tried to get people to belive by finding the last name in the credits. This person's last name is a VERY COMMON english word.

It's very unwise, and a way to permenently ruin ones credability. I'm not going to keep going down this road. JessicaRaven is doing a lot of bad things that I've seen a different T person do, and it alienated that person from the community as a whole because they just wouldn't stop trying to take credit for stuff they obviously didn't make and have been called on it. If Lag didn't pull that original from somewhere, do you think we'd be having this discussion? No, we wouldn't, because even though there are some glaring errors, I would't have evidence that she didn't make it.

Yes, there are some very common movie/dvd box covers, anime and actual movies. There also some very "stock" poses that are used so commonly that you wouldn't know who first did that pose. That's all fine, and nobody here was saying "you stole that pose!". What has been said over and over (And please people read the whole thread before trying to defend tracing.)

The ENTIRE POINT being made is that TRACING SOMETHING YOU DID NOT DO AND TAKING CREDIT FOR IT IS NOT LEGAL.

[Jpac]

Seriously people, this is ridiculous...you've all copied ...

He's right,
the original of my icon was created by AVEM. I feel so ashamed. All I ever did was modify the darn thing

AVEM on the other hand would beat me if I suggested tracing. I tried to show anime poses for GenChan and she wouldn't even accept those for reference. She wanted to draw it from scratch. (Well she did accept trying one sitting in a swing but she changed the angle and clothes) We're still waiting for the perfect Gen-Chan that will make Joel Fagin cave! (Among others) Actually, we didn't know how much of a serious business the Gen-Chan was so we haven't officially made our second attempt.

I digress...her sketches and drawings are originals. She doesn't grab other peoples work. I'm sure most C-Genners don't. This thread has become long enough that the uninitiated will not read the whole thing. The point has been made that it is immoral, illegal and people should at least apologize for claiming others work.


Let it be. Let it be. Let it be. Let it be.
(We) Whisper(ed) words of wisdom. Let it be.

And when the broken hearted people living in the world agree,
there will be an answer. Let it be.
For though they may be parted there is still a chance that they will see,
there will be an answer. Let it be. ~ Buddha
(words really by John Lennon and Paul McCartney! Don't kick me!)

[Mvmarcz]

that is true kisai. I never traced anything and I freely admit to using refferences. But I really didn't say anything for or against anyone.

The only safe way to end it is for the guilty party to admit what they did, and if they aren't going to maybe it's best to move on to somewhere else. Cause if they don't fess up they will forever be "That person who traced a bunch of other peoples stuff and tried to push it as their own." Which in an art forum is kinda like saying "That person who kills puppies for fun" Not a good legacy to leave behind.

[Kirb]

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.