Saddam Hussein is dead.

Grabmygoblin · Post by **Grabmygoblin** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:01 pm

bleh... the coverage was just morbid yesterday. I just turned off the TV. but at least for once a dictator faced justice. most just die of old age and nothing is ever resolved.

Dotty · Post by **Dotty** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:01 pm

Well, if this is any indication, at least 75 are dead and over 100 wounded, and shiites are the targets. This is all today. Man, I sure hope it was worth hanging a guy who's been in captivity for a couple years now.

Mr.Bob · Post by **Mr.Bob** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:07 pm

People are seeing the problem with this as another "death penalty" debate. I don't.

It's not him dying that upsets me. I would have accepted it if a crowd of angry Iraqis had strung Saddam up around the same time they were toppling his statues. I could also understand if he were executed after a series of trials, or one big trial, that laid out the depth and the breadth of all his alleged crimes.

No one expected Saddam to be found innocent, but to quickly hang him after he was convicted of killing a mere 148 people in reaction to an assassination attempt 21 years ago, a crime that could be (and was) portrayed as a case of overzealous self-defense, in a jumped up court where the first two judges were forced to quit due to alleged interferences by the puppet-government put in place by an invading force, half of his defense team was murdered during the trial, the prosecutors refused to hand over evidence for exploration purposes, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch were crying out blue murder and the appeals process was such a rush job that the only explanation is that the people in charge don't believe they're going to be in control for that much longer so had to execute him while they still had him in their custody, was an utterly shameful farce.

But so what?
"Justice" had to be done didn't it? Who cares about that stuff! He was Evil! He had had to pay for his actions!

The point is, Saddam and his cronies were EXACTLY the kind of people who executed people by hanging after show trials like this. These people have now done exactly the same thing, and so lost any moral high they may have had. And I do not believe that is the way to give a society a fresh start.

Saddam probably "deserved" the death penalty but I know he definitely deserved a fair trial. This was Victor's Justice of the torches and pitchforks variety at work here. Pretty much what happened is that the military turned over their prisoner of war over to the same people who tried to assassinate Sadaam to finish him off.
Ironically, it was brutal and unjust governing like this that justified the entire invasion in the first place (or was it WMDs? I forget). Now, how many thousands are dying in Iraq because of atrocious war management and planning? How many more will die or be killed in response to Saddam's martyrdom when the alternative was a sad, pathetic, and forgotten lonely old man rotting in a jail cell? How many are dying worldwide that we keep turning a blind eye to because their countries happen to sit atop a nice fat reserve of oil?

This all just leaves me with a very bad taste in my mouth.

MixedMyth · Post by **MixedMyth** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:33 pm

Yeah, I was talking about the death penalty in U.S. terms, not in Saddam's case. It brings up questions about the practice in our own culture- well, that and the poor guy in Florida. However, I didn't want to apply it directly to Saddam because THAT death penalty is covered by another sovreign country, not the US.

Though Tynan did raise a good point about how much we could claim this is an Iraqi policy vs a US one, given we seem to have our fingers in all of Irag'a pies.

However, the death penalty strikes me as something that relies very heavily on culture and tradition.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:16 pm

That makes all kinds of sence, Bob. Maciavelism is the source of problems, not the solution.

Tellurider · Post by **Tellurider** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:35 pm

For my opinion on the death penalty, I refer to someone much more eloquent than myself:

Robert A. Heinlein wrote:I had no sympathy for him and still haven't. That old saw about "To understand all is to forgive all" is a lot of tripe. Some things, the more you understand the more you loathe them. My sympathy is reserved for Barbara Anne Enthwaite whom I had never seen, and for her parents, who would never again see their little girl.
[...]
That night I tried to figure out how such things could be kept from happening.
[...]
Well, if there was no way to keep it from happening once, there was only one sure way to keep it from happening twice. Which we had used.

If Dillinger had understood what he was doing (which seemed incredible) then he got what was coming to him... except that it seemed a shame that he hadn't suffered as much as had little Barbara Anne - he practically hadn't suffered at all.

But suppose, as seemed more likely, that he was so crazy that he had never been aware that he was doing anything wrong? What then?

Well, we shoot mad dogs, don't we?

Yes, but being crazy that way is a sickness-

I couldn't see but two possibilities. Either he couldn't be made well - in which case he was better dead for his own sake and for the safety of others - or he could be treated and made sane. In which case (it seemed to me) if he ever became sane enough for civilized society... and thought over what he had done while he was "sick" - what could be left for him but suicide? How could he live with himself?

And suppose he escaped before he was cured and did the same thing again? And maybe again? How do you explain that to bereaved parents? In view of his record?

I couldn't see but one answer.
[...]
The one thing I was sure of was that he would never again kill any more little girls.

As for Saddam being dead? I don't really care. He's been on the "Dead to me" list for a long time now.

Fuck the middle east and fuck the extremists. I'm cynical and don't care. All I want is for the government to leave me the fuck alone so I can live my life with a minimum of fuss. I do, however, want every single terrorist in the entire world to either drop dead or have a change of heart and stop terrorizing, because it really pisses me off that I can't take a fucking soda in through airport security. Jackasses. I FLY TO WORK. DO YOU REALIZE HOW IRRITATING IT IS TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH AIRPORT SECURITY EVERY TWO WEEKS??? argh.

TRI · Post by **TRI** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:25 pm

God I hate Robert Heinlein.
That has nothing to do with either of the three or four discussions going in this thread, I just have to say that every time he's mentioned. Like how Catholics nod their heads when they say Jesus.

Guildmaster Van · Post by **Guildmaster Van** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:49 pm

Israel must have a five-foot boner right now.

Tellurider · Post by **Tellurider** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:54 pm

TRI wrote: God I hate Robert Heinlein.
That has nothing to do with either of the three or four discussions going in this thread, I just have to say that every time he's mentioned. Like how Catholics nod their heads when they say Jesus.

What I like best about Heinlein is that he was a dirty old man before he was an old man

That and I'm an engineer. No worries though, mate.

TRI · Post by **TRI** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:43 pm

He definitely deserves to be in the Dirty Old Man Hall of Fame.

I just hate him because I've seen his theory that the suffering of others is the basis of all humor used to justify some really sick and tasteless behavior; and because each time I've read a novel length work of his he abandoned the original plot about half way through and devoted the rest of the book to explaining why free love is the solution to all problems. I ended up wanting to resurrect him from the grave so I could shout "go back and finish the story you started!" at him.

Could be I've just had bad luck 'though and there's better stuff I haven't read.

Guildmaster Van · Post by **Guildmaster Van** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:51 pm

Warning: Actual execution video

Anyone who thinks this is justified has a foolish false sense of morality.
If Saddam deserved this sort of punishment for what he did, then I can think of more than one President who deserve worse fates.

Laemkral · Post by **Laemkral** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:30 pm

Guildmaster Van wrote:Israel must have a five-foot boner right now.

Not necessarily. When Saddam was in power, sure he threatened to destroy Israel a few times and launched many many Scuds, but at the same time he was also out to destroy Iran and tried to destroy them a few times and launched many many Scuds (Israel supplied arms to both sides during the Iran-Iraq war). Plus, when he was in power, they knew who the key political actors were and who had control. The devil you know versus the devil you don't type situation.

If anything, a religious Shiite victory in the political arena of Iraq (strengthened and motivated by the death of a prominent Sunni named Saddam Hussein) could be worse for Israel should their government be politically motivated to ally with Iran which is currently VERY hostile towards them.

In retrospect to my having my graduation most likely delayed a semester, the silver lining is that gives me a whole extra half of a year for things to get fixed over there and a withdrawl take place before I end up serving a tour.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:09 pm

Tellurider wrote:
TRI wrote: God I hate Robert Heinlein.
That has nothing to do with either of the three or four discussions going in this thread, I just have to say that every time he's mentioned. Like how Catholics nod their heads when they say Jesus.
What I like best about Heinlein is that he was a dirty old man before he was an old man

That and I'm an engineer. No worries though, mate.

Engineers shouldn't like him. Engineers should despise him for all his ridiculous ego-driven science.

Tellurider · Post by **Tellurider** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:12 pm

mcDuffies wrote:
Tellurider wrote:
TRI wrote: God I hate Robert Heinlein.
That has nothing to do with either of the three or four discussions going in this thread, I just have to say that every time he's mentioned. Like how Catholics nod their heads when they say Jesus.
What I like best about Heinlein is that he was a dirty old man before he was an old man

That and I'm an engineer. No worries though, mate.
Engineers shouldn't like him. Engineers should despise him for all his ridiculous ego-driven science.

But I want cool computers that not only talk to me, they flirt with me!

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:18 pm

Tellurider wrote:But I want cool computers that not only talk to me, they flirt with me!

I can flirt with you through a computer...would that suffice?

Guildmaster Van · Post by **Guildmaster Van** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:39 pm

Laemkral wrote:If anything, a religious Shiite victory in the political arena of Iraq (strengthened and motivated by the death of a prominent Sunni named Saddam Hussein) could be worse for Israel should their government be politically motivated to.

It was a politically incorrect joke.

Tellurider · Post by **Tellurider** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:14 pm

Tim wrote:
Tellurider wrote:But I want cool computers that not only talk to me, they flirt with me!
I can flirt with you through a computer...would that suffice?

*sigh* thanks, but it's just not the same. There's just something really cool about smart machines. I think I get it from being a "Terminator" fan.

Jackhass · Post by **Jackhass** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:26 am

I find this oddly disturbing for some reason. I even find myself getting a little angry about this whole hanging situation, and yet it's hard to mount any real argument or express why because, well...it's Saddam Hussein.

He's pretty close to the top of the list of guys who had it coming. And yet this still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I am against the death penalty, so I could just say that's the reason...but that doesn't entirely sum it up.

Czar · Post by **Czar** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:26 am

Tellurider wrote:
Tim wrote:
Tellurider wrote:But I want cool computers that not only talk to me, they flirt with me!
I can flirt with you through a computer...would that suffice?
*sigh* thanks, but it's just not the same. There's just something really cool about smart machines. I think I get it from being a "Terminator" fan.

... Smart machines?

Ever read anything about the Culture? By Iain M. Banks?

Mr.Bob · Post by **Mr.Bob** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:28 am

The Culture was so completely perfect and final, it made all life utterly dull and pointless.