Okay, I just HAVE to talk about this (Israel vs Lebanon)

[Guildmaster Van]

I've been watching CNN for at least four hours EVERY day for quite some time now, and naturally I've caught this entire Israeli-Lebanese conflict from the beginning.

This war is ridiculous. Frankly I think the Israeli government is acting in ways not unlike the terrorism they seek to fight. The cutting off of supply lines, the destruction of civilian transport necessities, the crippling of a country so recently freed from Islamic rule - these are just some of the things the Israelis have done.

Hundreds of Lebanese dead, with thousands injured. People having to search for their next meal, with humanitarian workers unsure whether or not they can deliver precious aid to those in need. Civilians dropping left and right while the ghost soldiers of Hezbollah deke out of Israel's destructive aim. Frankly this isn't a war - it's a slowed down genocide.

Looking at the way Israel has responded to Hezbollah (And to the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip) it reminds me a little of the Nazi Germany regime from which the original Israeli immigrants escaped from. It is a cruel irony that those who were persecuted now turn around to persecute another people under the pretense of attacking a terrorist organization.

I am not an anti-Semite, despite my sympathies towards the Palestinians and my opinion that Israel was unfairly taken from the Muslim nations sixty years ago. The past cannot be changed, and for better or worse Israel is now a country that the Muslims must learn to coexist with, and vice-versa.

I understand how the Muslims feel that their land has been unfairly taken, and though I agree with the sentiment, I feel that their response to Israel is this modern day is irrational and far too extreme. While Israel was created unfairly the people living in it should not be punished for something beyond their control - they were being slaughtered by a madman, and needed a safehaven. I feel that the continued anti-Semitic sentiment from the Muslim nations, as well as the continued harassment by various militias, need to be halted in order for a peace to be had. The Muslims must accept the right of the Israelis to exist.

At the same time, having debated with actual Israelis myself, I feel that they are just as racist towards the Muslims as that which they recieve. I have been told by an Israeli that Palestine does not exist, and that I am a terrorist for suggesting so. Similarly the actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians through the unwarranted destruction of home and property by bulldozers and as well the overreaction towards Hezbollah's kidnapping of the two soldiers prove to me their hatred to their Muslim neighbors. I understand that Israel is like America and cannot show weakness for fear of domination, but there is a limit to how they can defend themselves. Israel must accept the right of the Palestinians to exist.

As for Hezbollah itself I do not consider the militia to be a terrorist organization. There is a difference between guerillas and terrorists - namely that terrorists seek to kill civilians. While there is no doubt Hezbollah cares not for whom their rockets kill the West (And Israel) must consider that the Muslim nations immediately surrounding Israel consider everyone within the country to be Israeli soldiers (Listen to Hezbollah and Hamas rhetoric - they refer to Israeli civilians as soldiers). While this belief is rather silly and unjustified it does explain how the Muslim nations rally around each other when it comes to Israel.

Nonetheless Hezbollah has no business continueing their harassment of Israel - their foolishness has wrought a horrible wrath upon their nation.

Were I to have the power to intermediate in this conflict I would do several things. To begin with; I would ask of the Israelis to accept the nation of Palestine and to stop all military action within both Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, as well as to either prosecute or set free all prisoners they are holding for indefinite periods of time (There are many children held by the Israelis who were arrest for throwing rocks and molotovs at tanks). Secondly, I would ask of Hezbollah to submit all arms to international authority and to disband their militia so they can assimilate themselves back into Lebanon as a purely political party, as well as to release all Israeli prisoners. Thirdly I would ask of the Palestinians to stop their defiance of Israel, and to set free their captured soldier. Finally I would ask of all three to recognize the right of each other to exist and live free of violence.

Of course... that's a pipe dream.

What are your opinions on the Israeli-Lebanese and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts?

[Ahaugen]

it's like watching the runnup to the Great War all over again

[Lando]

The leaders of all the countries at war should have to do King of the Ring. Last man standing rules the world! But seriously if these politicians had to fight each other I think things would be resolved more effectively!

[LAGtheNoggin]

All Isreali citizens are, in stunted reasoning, soldiers. Strictly speaking all men and women of age there are conscripted and trained to fight, once conscription ends most are still held in reserve and recieve training every few years. Of course large amounts of people avoid conscription for all sorts of reasons and not to mention the number of immigrants, tourists, and people not of age in that country...

Still, such is how words are twisted.

[Jesusabdullah]

I think both Hezbollah and Israel need to take fucking chill pills, stop blowin' shit up, and trade prisoners. I've seen pictures of Beirut, and it's really sad that the city is practically ruined because of like four prisoners. It's just not worth it. They say that Beirut was really nice once upon a time, too. Like, I've seen Beirut and Lebanon called the Paris and Switzerland of the Medditerranean, respectively (in reference to them before violence broke out.

I agree that it's too late to ctrl-z Israel, and I also think that Israel has been much too overzealous. I don't know about specifics or anything as far as a long-term peace agreement, though. That's their deal ("Their" being whoever knows their shit and actually has a say). But, for now, a cease-fire, prisoner tradings and chill pill takings would get us started.

[The Neko]

Man, that piece of land has traded ownership so much that nobody honestly has a real claim to it, and yet everyone still tries to anyway.

[Ahaugen]

and it's not like it's prime real estate either, but damnit, our god wants us to have it and no one else!

[Princess]

It will be hard to put that toothpaste back in the tube. Oh dear

I predict WWIII!

[Boogiebop]

You know how hard it is to run a comic based on current events when the only current events going on is yet more fighting in the middle east? Jesus. Mel Gibson getting pissed and insulting an entire religion was literally like a gift from fucking god. "Finally something worth writing about"

[MixedMyth]

To give everyone some perspective from the Lebanon end of things, I suggest reading this. I came across her devart gallery orriginally. She wrote a very compelling piece about growing up in Lebenon and it's past conflicts.

[Laemkral]

I've been watching CNN for at least four hours EVERY day for quite some time now, and naturally I've caught this entire Israeli-Lebanese conflict from the beginning.

This war is ridiculous. Frankly I think the Israeli government is acting in ways not unlike the terrorism they seek to fight. The cutting off of supply lines, the destruction of civilian transport necessities, the crippling of a country so recently freed from Islamic rule - these are just some of the things the Israelis have done.

From a tactical standpoint, to achieve their goals they've taken the correct actions. How do you stop a guerilla group from moving two of your soldiers to a highly hostile nation (Iran via Syria)? Blow up the roads, airports, ports, and every other means of transportation. They have been a little indiscriminate towards Lebanese civilians, but they've made efforts to forewarn major locations such as ports and airports of incoming attacks. Of course, all this usually yields is a bunch of damaged property cause Hezbollah gets word and evacs too. My understanding is that this is also part of a larger effort to get Lebanon's government to stand up and fight Hezbollah.

Hundreds of Lebanese dead, with thousands injured. People having to search for their next meal, with humanitarian workers unsure whether or not they can deliver precious aid to those in need. Civilians dropping left and right while the ghost soldiers of Hezbollah deke out of Israel's destructive aim. Frankly this isn't a war - it's a slowed down genocide.

Looking at the way Israel has responded to Hezbollah (And to the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip) it reminds me a little of the Nazi Germany regime from which the original Israeli immigrants escaped from. It is a cruel irony that those who were persecuted now turn around to persecute another people under the pretense of attacking a terrorist organization.

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but this IS war, and war is hell. People die, especially the ones who aren't fighting it. This is especially true of urban conflicts and now a days almost every conflict is an urban conflict. Take a look at Stalingrad. Civilian casualties there were inordinatly high because of all the artillery and explosives used. The death toll right now might seem high, but thank God we have precision weaponry that can only blow up one building filled with people rather than having to carpet bomb a whole block into rubble. Humanitarian aid would be nice, but bullets don't identify neutrals and a Red Cross worker (or in this case Red Crescent) dies just like a civilian.

As for comparing Israel to Nazi Germany...please. That's so contrite. I don't see death squads walking around herding up Arabs. There's no camps holding political prisoners or "undesireables". Bush isn't Hitler, Israel isn't Nazi Germany, the whole "they're as bad as the Nazis" comparisson is too over used.

What you are witnessing is not persecution, it's what happens when a country that is surrounded by enemy nation states, is supplied by the most powerful country on the planet with arms, and possesses one of the greatest and most ruthless spy agencies in the world goes to war. I believe there are two main principles in war. #1 Never invade Russia in the winter. #2 Don't fuck with Israel. This is a country that decided .45 isn't powerful enough for a sidearm. Again, this is war and it is brutal. That it makes you sick to watch it means you have a conscience.

I am not an anti-Semite, despite my sympathies towards the Palestinians and my opinion that Israel was unfairly taken from the Muslim nations sixty years ago. The past cannot be changed, and for better or worse Israel is now a country that the Muslims must learn to coexist with, and vice-versa.

I understand how the Muslims feel that their land has been unfairly taken, and though I agree with the sentiment, I feel that their response to Israel is this modern day is irrational and far too extreme. While Israel was created unfairly the people living in it should not be punished for something beyond their control - they were being slaughtered by a madman, and needed a safehaven. I feel that the continued anti-Semitic sentiment from the Muslim nations, as well as the continued harassment by various militias, need to be halted in order for a peace to be had. The Muslims must accept the right of the Israelis to exist.

Technically, Palestine was a British Mandate and the UK was within its rights to allow the creation of a new nation. The original plans called for a much smaller, more fragmented Israel than what exists today. Israel is only the size it is because it keeps capturing land when it is attacked. I do feel that more freedom and some form of compensation needs to be provided for the Palestinians who lost property in the resulting wars they had nothing to do with. The fault of the current troubles in the Gaza are mainly the fault of some Israeli politicians that ignored the advice of Israeli generals and attacked into the Gaza Strip to repel an Egyptian invasion. Hmmm, politicians ignoring military experts on military matters resulting in shit hitting the fan. Why does that sounds SO familiar??

At the same time, having debated with actual Israelis myself, I feel that they are just as racist towards the Muslims as that which they recieve. I have been told by an Israeli that Palestine does not exist, and that I am a terrorist for suggesting so.

Calling you a terrorist is really pushing it. Misinformed is more like it. There is no Palestine. There is the Gaza Strip which is where the Palestinians live. It is more or less a territory of Israel and the whole point of the peace process is to slowly hand it over to the interim Palestinian government. God damn, that's another familiar sounding situation. I'm all for the creation of a Palestinian state because then any terrorist action by Hamas could be deemed an act of war as they are a part of the Palestinian govt.

Similarly the actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians through the unwarranted destruction of home and property by bulldozers and as well the overreaction towards Hezbollah's kidnapping of the two soldiers prove to me their hatred to their Muslim neighbors. I understand that Israel is like America and cannot show weakness for fear of domination, but there is a limit to how they can defend themselves. Israel must accept the right of the Palestinians to exist.

And I bet you thought America came up with "Shock and Awe". Israel did it first and does it best. We may have big bombs and a giant airforce, but they're right next door and they have bulldozers. And just like how it's totally useless when the US does it, it's just as useless when Israel does it. Israel has never said Palestinians don't have a right to exist. They've offered on many occasions to forfeit large amounts of territory in exchange for peace and were turned down.

As for Hezbollah itself I do not consider the militia to be a terrorist organization. There is a difference between guerillas and terrorists - namely that terrorists seek to kill civilians. While there is no doubt Hezbollah cares not for whom their rockets kill the West (And Israel) must consider that the Muslim nations immediately surrounding Israel consider everyone within the country to be Israeli soldiers (Listen to Hezbollah and Hamas rhetoric - they refer to Israeli civilians as soldiers). While this belief is rather silly and unjustified it does explain how the Muslim nations rally around each other when it comes to Israel.

Nonetheless Hezbollah has no business continueing their harassment of Israel - their foolishness has wrought a horrible wrath upon their nation.

As was stated, just about every Israeli IS a soldier. You are also correct in that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, at least not anymore. In the 1980s during the original conflicts in Lebanon, they definitely were a terror group very much in line with the insurgents currently in Iraq. Now they are a well armed and well organized militia that fights in a guerrilla manner. As we all know, guerrilla warfare is long, slow, and painful to everyone.

Were I to have the power to intermediate in this conflict I would do several things. To begin with; I would ask of the Israelis to accept the nation of Palestine and to stop all military action within both Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, as well as to either prosecute or set free all prisoners they are holding for indefinite periods of time (There are many children held by the Israelis who were arrest for throwing rocks and molotovs at tanks). Secondly, I would ask of Hezbollah to submit all arms to international authority and to disband their militia so they can assimilate themselves back into Lebanon as a purely political party, as well as to release all Israeli prisoners. Thirdly I would ask of the Palestinians to stop their defiance of Israel, and to set free their captured soldier. Finally I would ask of all three to recognize the right of each other to exist and live free of violence.

That's too limited. This conflict involves both Syria and Iran as well. Hezbollah will never disarm, especially not with two major countries backing them militarily. Recognition of a Palestinian nation would be very very very VERY risky. As I said, if Hamas ever did anything (and they seem so eager to do so and have) it could be deemed an act of war by one nation upon another. When that happens, the shit you see now will look like happy pretty. Imagine the invasion of Iraq happening right there, and that's what you're gonna get and it'll only make matters worse. Sovereignty will probably happen when the militias recognize Israel's right to exist.
Or, at the very least, a UN peacekeeping group in Palestine would be a much better solution because they will be less likely to respond with escalating violence.
Releasing of prisoners would be a nice thing, and I believe it has been considered. Unfortunately, it's one of the demands and as long as the fighting continues it won't happen.


This is a very very old fight that's been going on since 1948 and has only been compounded by the zealotry by people on both sides of the war. It is a war, and wars are messy affairs where way too many people die.
I see several possibilities happening.

Escalation-Iran gets directly involved (possible), the US steps in as a result (likely), and the whole thing explodes as a result (definite). Or one side does something incredibly stupid and big such as a Hezbollah rocket strike hitting a high profile target or Israel bombs Syria. They've been very close to the border so far and all it takes is a small miscalculation and it gets much much worse.
UN-Europe and the other countries grow some balls and send troops to create a buffer zone between Lebanon and Israel. However, the current ranges of Hezbollah rockets means it'd have to be a big buffer zone and that means a lot of troops. This is a maybe option but would be messy because it involves a lot of countries.
Out of Ammo-Eventually Hezbollah will run out of rockets, unless they get more. They've fired off about 1/5 of their stockpile if I recall right. Once the rockets stop, Israel will back down on part of its military actions but will still pursue the recovery of their 2 soldiers. I think this is what'll probably keep happening, unless Hezbollah gets re-armed, then it'll probably be escalation cause that means outside help and it gets much worse.

Really, this whole thing is FUBAR. I mean seriously FUBAR. Thank God I've heard word of Palestinian officials considering the return of their soldier.

[Guildmaster Van]

From a tactical standpoint, to achieve their goals they've taken the correct actions. How do you stop a guerilla group from moving two of your soldiers to a highly hostile nation (Iran via Syria)? Blow up the roads, airports, ports, and every other means of transportation. They have been a little indiscriminate towards Lebanese civilians, but they've made efforts to forewarn major locations such as ports and airports of incoming attacks. Of course, all this usually yields is a bunch of damaged property cause Hezbollah gets word and evacs too. My understanding is that this is also part of a larger effort to get Lebanon's government to stand up and fight Hezbollah.

They're punishing an entire nation for the actions of one group. They're completely unjustified in bombing the country. If they wanted to get the soldiers back they would have invaded Lebanon day one with ground troops.

Instead, like the murderers and cowards they are, Israel hung back bombing the hell out of Lebanon. How would bombing roads and airports stop Hezbollah from removing the soldiers from Lebanon? Tell me that.

They could have marched them by foot out of Lebanon and the Israelis would have been none the wiser. Instead Israel bombed a bunch of places and instead of ensuring the safety of their soldiers they ensured the starvation and crippling of Lebanon. This was done on purpose to punish Lebanon.

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but this IS war, and war is hell. People die, especially the ones who aren't fighting it. This is especially true of urban conflicts and now a days almost every conflict is an urban conflict. Take a look at Stalingrad. Civilian casualties there were inordinatly high because of all the artillery and explosives used. The death toll right now might seem high, but thank God we have precision weaponry that can only blow up one building filled with people rather than having to carpet bomb a whole block into rubble. Humanitarian aid would be nice, but bullets don't identify neutrals and a Red Cross worker (or in this case Red Crescent) dies just like a civilian.

If that's true then America is emo over 9-11. There is a difference between war and slaughter. I wholeheartedly believe Israel is killing civilians on purpose. Israel has the power to fight Hezbollah in the streets, yet bombs them from afar - what does that say about them?

They are cowards with the will to kill for their convictions, but not to die for them.

That's why suicide bombers command such high respect. Do you have the balls to die for your beliefs? Most honourable people would say yes, but in reality most people would just shit themselves and chicken out.

As for comparing Israel to Nazi Germany...please. That's so contrite. I don't see death squads walking around herding up Arabs. There's no camps holding political prisoners or "undesireables".

Um, yes there are. If you don't see them then you're blind.
You're forgetting the Israeli backed militia that slaughtered a bunch of peasants in the eighties. Or the continued attacks against the Palestinian people. Or the thousands upon thousands of Muslim prisoners held indefinately for opposing Israel.

You're 100% wrong on this one.

Technically, Palestine was a British Mandate and the UK was within its rights to allow the creation of a new nation. The original plans called for a much smaller, more fragmented Israel than what exists today. Israel is only the size it is because it keeps capturing land when it is attacked. I do feel that more freedom and some form of compensation needs to be provided for the Palestinians who lost property in the resulting wars they had nothing to do with. The fault of the current troubles in the Gaza are mainly the fault of some Israeli politicians that ignored the advice of Israeli generals and attacked into the Gaza Strip to repel an Egyptian invasion. Hmmm, politicians ignoring military experts on military matters resulting in shit hitting the fan. Why does that sounds SO familiar??

Calling you a terrorist is really pushing it. Misinformed is more like it. There is no Palestine. There is the Gaza Strip which is where the Palestinians live. It is more or less a territory of Israel and the whole point of the peace process is to slowly hand it over to the interim Palestinian government. God damn, that's another familiar sounding situation. I'm all for the creation of a Palestinian state because then any terrorist action by Hamas could be deemed an act of war as they are a part of the Palestinian govt.

And I quote...

"Both Britain and France had made specific promises of independant statehood to Muslim tribes of Arabia, Palestine, and Syria during the First World War, in order to gain their assistance in fighting the Ottoman empire. Those various ancient tribes had long since wearied of Ottoman rule, viewing the Turks as corrupt, lapsed Muslims who allowed themselves such proscribed indulgences as alcohol. Puritanical religious observation and clan loyalties had steadily superseded loyalty to Constantinople, among the Arabs, and prompted many of them to take up arms and help the British eject the Turks from their region.

Even before the war was over, however, the Arabs learned that the Europeans had been lying: an agreement between France and Britain on how to divide the area between them (Syria and southeast Turkey would go to France, Jordan and Iraq to Britain) for the purpose of creating "mandates" - a vague term for zones of influence in which each respective power would hold administrative and a great deal of economic control - had been reached in 1916. The Arabs scarcely had time to recover from this discovery before another came: the British intended to support the idea of creating a Zionist homeland in Palestine, which, under the terms of the Anglo-French agreement, was supposed to be an internation zone... ...In the midst of this diplomatic chicanery, Palestine never achieved the status of international territory: the British retained control, as they did in Jordan to the east. But by 1928, Jordan had been granted self-government, while Iraq had actually been made an independent state (Although the British secured for themselves favored trade status). Yet Palestine remained stuck in the mandate system, largely because, its inhabitants correctly believed, that system gave Britain the power to manipulate questions of land ownership in favor of the European Zionists that they, under heavy pressure from British and other European Jewish lobbies, were helping relocate to the area.

By 1933, with Hitler in power in Germany, somewhere between fifteen and thirty thousand Jews a year were emigrating to Palestine under British protection. In 1936, the Palestinians went on general strike, demanding a full stop to Jewish immigration, as well as self-government. The British answered with a royal commission, which eventually rejected the appeal for self-government and recommended that Palestine be partitioned into two parts, one Arab, one Jewish. Sixty percent of the arable land in Palestine was to go to the Jewish sector, which held 30 percent of Palestine's population. Deadly violence broke out; and in response, the British put together another royal commission report, this one recommending that the British keep more land under their own authority and give less to both Jews and Arabs.

At the close of the 1930s, the Jewish communities in Palestine - alarmed at increasing Arab calls for an end to Jewish immigration, along with accompanying Palestinian threats against any Arab citizen or national leader who did not support their cause - made the fateful decision to expand the membership of two armed bands that were already defending Jewish settlers: the Irgun, and its aptly titled offshoot, the Stern Gang. Arab anger had bred violence and murder in Palestine; but it was the Jews who brough organized, paramilitary terror into the region. The goal of the Irgun and the Stern Gang was an all-Jewish state of Israel that would extended from the mountains of Lebanon to the Suez Canal and east to include Jordan. Their ideas on how this could - indeed, must - be achieved were advertised in their logo: a raised fist holding a rifle, below which were the words 'Only Thus.'... ...The Irgun and the Stern Gang provided protection for the illegal entrance of tens of thousands of new Jewish residents in 1938-1939 alone, and their tactics included everything from beatings to bombings to murder. That they were accomplished at their work was reflected in the remarkably lopsided death toll during the long months of heavy violence. By one independent count, the British lost 77 people and the Jews 250; the Arabs, however, sustained some 3,500 fatalities.

The ease with which the Jewish terrorists turned to murder and mayhem was perhaps understandable, given what was happening in Europe and the tales that were being brought to Palestine by immigrants. The Irgun and the Stern Gang sought to augment through violence the world's meager sympathy for the plight of both European and Palestinian Jews by creating the image not of armed land-grabbers (Which many of them were) but of a people forcefully defending their homeland. In other words, like the IRA and Sinn Fein, the Jewish terrorists believed that they could propagate the idea of a popular war by engaging in unlimited tactics; and like their Irish counterparts, they were wrong.

...Following the war, the campaign of Jewish terror reached its peak on July 22, 1946, when the Irgun - commanded by future Israeli prime minister Menahem Begin - blew up an entire wing of the famously beautiful King David Hotel in Jerusalem. Ninety people died: and once again, the victims were Arabs, Britons, and Jews alike. Given such behavior, and given that they had long planned to leave anyway, the British informed the new United Nations that they intended to relinquish administration of Palestine to international control in 1947; and the UN - unable, as was much of the world, to seperate what had happened to the Jews in Europe from what the Jews had long been doing in Palestine - subsequently came up with a new partition plan that gave even more prime territory to Jewish settlers."
- Caleb Carr, the Lessons of Terror, pages 208-213

Now you know the history behind the creation of Israel. Eventually the Jews took absolute control of the area.

As you can see, while Mel Gibson is a drunk, maybe he wasn't entierly wrong given the current situation in the Middle East is Israel's fault to begin with (Edit: That's an exagerration. Everyone fucked up in the Middle East)

The problem with Yanks and Brits is that they favor Israel, so their news media spins the stories to make it seem like the Israelis are innocent, which is the exact opposite.

The funniest thing of all is that in a hypothetical situation where the Revelation prophecy 16:14-21 is fulfilled it would mean that Hezbollah truly is the army of God (The prophecy refers to the gathering of the nations of the world to oppose god, while one-hundred pound hailstones rain down. This "could" be a reference to the United Nations and Hezbollah's rockets if you're into biblical prophecy). I'm mentioning this because some Christians were on CNN the other day blabbing about the end times - I didn't pay attention, but I found it amusing because Har Megiddo is rather close to the Lebanese border.

And I bet you thought America came up with "Shock and Awe".

Excuse me; did I give you the impression I'm an idiot?
Don't treat me like a child when it comes to matters of war.

This is a very very old fight that's been going on since 1948 and has only been compounded by the zealotry by people on both sides of the war. It is a war, and wars are messy affairs where way too many people die.

See my quoted passage above.

[Laemkral]

They're punishing an entire nation for the actions of one group. They're completely unjustified in bombing the country. If they wanted to get the soldiers back they would have invaded Lebanon day one with ground troops.

Instead, like the murderers and cowards they are, Israel hung back bombing the hell out of Lebanon. How would bombing roads and airports stop Hezbollah from removing the soldiers from Lebanon? Tell me that.

They could have marched them by foot out of Lebanon and the Israelis would have been none the wiser. Instead Israel bombed a bunch of places and instead of ensuring the safety of their soldiers they ensured the starvation and crippling of Lebanon. This was done on purpose to punish Lebanon.

You just said it yourself. On foot is the only way and that makes the journey from Lebanon to Iran just about impossible. They've effectively kept the prisoners in place. The tactic is exceptionally brutal as we're seeing, but it is exceptionally effective. I also think it is a horrible idea, but to achieve their goal it is the correct method. They ensured the safety of their soldiers, but at the PRICE of civilians. It's overkill, but that's how their top brass thinks.

Also, as to why there are no ground troops in Lebanon. Remember Fallujah? Copy and paste all over Lebanon. You think THIS is messy, that'd be MUCH worse.

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but this IS war, and war is hell. People die, especially the ones who aren't fighting it. This is especially true of urban conflicts and now a days almost every conflict is an urban conflict. Take a look at Stalingrad. Civilian casualties there were inordinatly high because of all the artillery and explosives used. The death toll right now might seem high, but thank God we have precision weaponry that can only blow up one building filled with people rather than having to carpet bomb a whole block into rubble. Humanitarian aid would be nice, but bullets don't identify neutrals and a Red Cross worker (or in this case Red Crescent) dies just like a civilian.

If that's true then America is emo over 9-11. There is a difference between war and slaughter. I wholeheartedly believe Israel is killing civilians on purpose. Israel has the power to fight Hezbollah in the streets, yet bombs them from afar - what does that say about them?

They are cowards with the will to kill for their convictions, but not to die for them.

That's why suicide bombers command such high respect. Do you have the balls to die for your beliefs? Most honourable people would say yes, but in reality most people would just shit themselves and chicken out.

America and Israel are kind enough to put its military forces in plain sight on bases. One plane struck Dept. of Def. property. I acknowledge that as a directed attack on military personnel who understand the risks. Those other two planes were AIMED at civilians. There IS a difference here. You want to talk about courage and convictions? As a soldier I hold nothing but CONTEMPT for Hezbollah and any other force that continues to hide amongst civilians and innocents in an attempt to force the opposition to kill them and look bad. If they were just hiding in camps in the hills, the plains, the valleys, the deserted areas, then that's just fine. You say Israel is intentionally attacking civilians? I say Hezbollah is intentionally forcing those civilians to stand in the cross hairs. THAT is cowardice.

To continue on with my above thought, ground troops on the streets will probably be the next stage if this continues unchecked. Israeli bombings aren't just air strikes but artillery as well. What you're seeing now is a stand off between indirect fire forces. The air strikes have mainly been to cripple in country resources, which is what they do best. The anti-rocket forces has been artillery in the form of armored vehicles that triangulate the source of the rockets and try to shell the location before Hezbollah moves. The artillery is itself being attacked in skirmishes with Hezbollah troops armed with advanced anti-armor rockets. Troops are on the ground, but they're just skirmishing and are mainly on the border area.

As for comparing Israel to Nazi Germany...please. That's so contrite. I don't see death squads walking around herding up Arabs. There's no camps holding political prisoners or "undesireables".

Um, yes there are. If you don't see them then you're blind.
You're forgetting the Israeli backed militia that slaughtered a bunch of peasants in the eighties. Or the continued attacks against the Palestinian people. Or the thousands upon thousands of Muslim prisoners held indefinately for opposing Israel.

You're 100% wrong on this one.

How fortunate they're being held indefinitely in a nation that has no death penalty, operates via a coalition of political views, allows Islamic religious courts, and even permits all Israeli Arabs to participate in government. As opposed to being experimented on, branded, forced into slave labor, and eventually burned in ovens.

Now you know the history behind the creation of Israel. Eventually the Jews took absolute control of the area.

As you can see, while Mel Gibson is a drunk, maybe he wasn't entierly wrong given the current situation in the Middle East is Israel's fault to begin with.

The problem with Yanks and Brits is that they favor Israel, so their news media spins the stories to make it seem like the Israelis are innocent, which is the exact opposite.

The funniest thing of all is that in a hypothetical situation where the Revelation prophecy 16:14-21 is fulfilled it would mean that Hezbollah truly is the army of God (The prophecy refers to the gathering of the nations of the world to oppose god, while one-hundred pound hailstones rain down. This "could" be a reference to the United Nations and Hezbollah's rockets if you're into biblical prophecy). I'm mentioning this because some Christians were on CNN the other day blabbing about the end times - I didn't pay attention, but I found it amusing because Har Megiddo is rather close to the Lebanese border.

I'm well aware of the founding of Israel and the Irgun. It doesn't change the fact that Britain controlled the territory, Britain made promises it didn't keep, and it was BRITAIN that handed the territory over. Not all the land was "grabbed", a good deal of it was bought and paid for through charities set up in WWII Allied nations by Jews living there. The territory controlled by Israel was doubled AFTER it forced back the attacking Arabs on the eve of its independence and chose to keep the territory. Sounds to me like the Palestinians are getting screwed by EVERYONE, including the neighboring Arab countries (especially Egypt).

And I bet you thought America came up with "Shock and Awe".

Excuse me; did I give you the impression I'm an idiot?
Don't treat me like a child when it comes to matters of war.

This is a very very old fight that's been going on since 1948 and has only been compounded by the zealotry by people on both sides of the war. It is a war, and wars are messy affairs where way too many people die.

See my quoted passage above.

The first part was supposed to be a joke. I guess I need to remember to include <humor> tags along with <sarcasm> tags.

[KittyKatBlack]

And I bet you thought America came up with "Shock and Awe".

America doesn't 'come up' with anything. We take something we see somewhere else, repackage it, mass produce it and then sell it back for 30% profit. It's the American way. Everyone knows that.

[Nyke]

Honestly, I think we should drop a whole mess of bubble bath foam all over Israel and Palestine.

At first, I thought that the foam would make them see how extremely childish this is, but I realized that it probably wouldn't do it, but would still be fun to see happen.

[Boogiebop]

Honestly, I think we should drop a whole mess of bubble bath foam all over Israel and Palestine.

At first, I thought that the foam would make them see how extremely childish this is, but I realized that it probably wouldn't do it, but would still be fun to see happen.

Let's face it. They'd end up fighting over who the bubble bath belonged to.

"Well god says it's mine"
"The British government says it's mine!"
etc

[Joel Fagin]

England and Europe - and by extension Australia and America - went through a few hundred years of cultural evolution, including democracy, woman's lib, racial tolerance, unions, religious tolerance, industrialisation and so on. During most of this period, no one cared for the Middle East much who, in their desert environment with few resources, did not have the capacity either for the social evolution, nor the capacity to create the impetus for it.

Then came the car and the desire for oil.

Unfortunatly, the Middle East is still basically tribal and warlike. Cultural evolution must always come from within but now it's being forced upon them. The Middle East is now expected to abide by our rules. The fact they don't is tolerated in a massive display of hypocracy driven by the oil, but we nevertherless still expect it.

But they're still tribal and we can't change that without taking over. "You cannot force change on another. You can only be there to facilitate it when it happens." Instead we interfere just enough to exaserpate the problem but not enough to enforce a solution. The result is decades of repetitive war and cycles of government.

What we need to do - the only thing that will actually work - is to leave them be. That's not, however, acceptable to our cultures or to our economic needs.

Everyone's stuck. Especially America. When the oil runs out, then we'll get our solution but it won't be pretty. The Middle East will then cease to have any useful resources to trade.

- Joel Fagin

[RemusShepherd]

"It seems logical to us that he who supports total war in principle cannot
complain of a war against civilians. The crux of the matter is whether
total war in its present form is justifiable, even when it serves a just
purpose. Does it not have material and spiritual evil as its consequences
which far exceed whatever the good that might result ? When will our
moralists give us a clear answer to this question?"

-- Father P. Siemes, September 1945, Hiroshima


I just fucking hate war. It makes no fucking sense. It's the most horrible thing humans ever invented, and no sane person would wage one no matter what the provocation. Both sides have already lost, in my opinion.

Now it's a matter of seeing whether things get worse before they get better. Syria may dogpile into this, and then we have serious problems.

[Joel Fagin]

It's the most horrible thing humans ever invented, and no sane person would wage one no matter what the provocation. Both sides have already lost, in my opinion.

We're not even remotely sane. We're human. The two don't overlap a whole heap.

And we didn't invent war. It's tribal instincts hardwired into us by Mother Nature, as are racism and pretty much every other sort of intolerance. Civilisation is about resisting those instincts, something which we are struggling with but are definitly making progress on. Women, Africans and webcomic writers are now all considered just as human as caucasians where even fifty years ago, they were a bunch of underclasses.

War has already been forced back a long way. It's now just down to smaller regional conflicts and the peacekeeping forces that are sent in.

Basically: It all seems to be happening the way you want. Give it time.

- Joel Fagin

[RemusShepherd]

And we didn't invent war. It's tribal instincts hardwired into us by Mother Nature, as are racism and pretty much every other sort of intolerance. Civilisation is about resisting those instincts, something which we are struggling with but are definitly making progress on.

I know, I know. Just because it's natural and in our genes doesn't mean I have to like it.

War has already been forced back a long way. It's now just down to smaller regional conflicts and the peacekeeping forces that are sent in.

Basically: It all seems to be happening the way you want. Give it time.

I don't share your rosy picture. I don't see this as a small regional conflict, but as the just-sprouted origin of a much larger one. Seen that way, it's a major concern that we may not *have* the time.

I really want to start my next comic, 'Genocide Man'. It's on-topic *now*.