Don't have an inkling ~ Take 2

Fullcircle · Post by **Fullcircle** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:47 pm

Does anyone know a good equivilant of Ceramicron 500 pens? Or similar really really fine pens?

KW and I wanted to cry when they stopped making ceramicron... KW adores adores adores them. Our supply of fine pens is running really low, and the quality of our work really suffers without them... We're desperate! Our brush pens are great, but we just can't get the finer details and perspective without a good fine tip pen...

If anyone knows, PLEASE help us out? Thanks!

~SR

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:25 am

Erm... what do you mean by a fine tip pen? I thought I knew my stationery, but apparently I don't.

I use a size F (Fine) Rotring Artpen (it's a fine tipped fountainpen) for fine details. I know they do it in Extra Fine size as well, and it uses refillable cartridges, which always rocks.

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:15 am

If you're using a lot of expendable pens, give a refillable pen a try. Rapidiograph pens make a fine line and they can be cleaned, refilled and reused.

Here is a 7 pack of different sized pens from really thin to really thick. I used the thinnest of the pens offered in that set for my comic. There are at least 2 pens thinner than that, though. And $50 for 7 rapidiographs is REALLY good.
http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalo ... ta_id=1819

ChaosBurnFlame · Post by **ChaosBurnFlame** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:07 pm

There's always crowquills and brushes too:) Ultimate re-use:)

Bustertheclown · Post by **Bustertheclown** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:23 pm

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, I'm a Rapidograph man. I'm certainly happy wih my antiquated stainless steel nibs, and I pretty much don't feel the need to worry about ever having them discontinued.

It sucks, though. I can't say how many times I've fallen in love with a certain supply, only to have it discontinued right out from under me. It happens with paper a lot, which sucks given that I'm a real papyrophile and get attached to certain papers easily. It's happened with pencils, pencil sharpeners, erasers, paints, inks, and pens, too. Stupid fluctuating art supply market!

I can only offer you my empathy and hope you find a suitable replacement.

The Chill Clan · Post by **The Chill Clan** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:59 pm

With practice and lots of patience you can get a very clean hair thin line with a 3 round brush and a bottle of India ink. "Princeton Art" make a very nice brush that keeps a a fine tip for a good while. The advantage is that it's an awe-inspiring skill that can easily give you the widest array of variation for the least amount of money. Down side, it's a pain in the arse to learn and is in no way something that can be picked up to replace a pen in a pinch if you've never used it. Steel nib pens and quills have the same advantages and disadvantages with one other hazard; you can easily rip open your paper if not used to it. If you're looking to save money, then Micron makes a decent long lasting disposable pen that comes in a wide verity of tips. Unfortunately their ink has a composition that doesn't always scan well in color. But if you've got the money and can justify the expense then radiograph pens or draftsmen pens that are refillable, like Faubs, are the best thing out there for quick and easy use. They combine the sharp black India ink found in ink wells and the comfort and ease of use of a pen. I've used all of these inking materials and I like Micron, but with my constant drawing and inking I'm thinking it's time to invest in some high quality technical pens. But I doubt highly that I'll ever give up my brush. I hope this helps . . . or at the very least confuses you even more so.

Fullcircle · Post by **Fullcircle** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:30 am

Wow, thanks guys!

I don't ink myself, that's KW's bit, so we'll see which option works best for her and for both of us financially

She really tends more toward pens and brush pens then actual brushes, especially Micron, but the microns we've found just don't get small enough anymore. It's really hurting our more 'far away' frames. Micron style pens are what we're used to, but it sounds like radiographs are certainly worth a shot.

I've had lots of supplies canceled from under me before, and it sucks. You feel like you've really got something, then they stop making it. Heck, I've had this happen at the art store and online too. 'New and Improved' or 'Upgrade' usually means 'If you liked it how it was, screw you, mwahahaha!'.

We'll see what we can do. Thanks!

~SR

Edit: Oh yeah, and as KW is going back to school for a Buisness degree, learning a new inking method is kind of out

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:17 am

The choice of Rapidiograph pens boils down to a question. Are you spending more than $15-$20 on a single type of micron pen? (03, 05, etc) If so, pay the $15-$20 for the Rapidiograph and just continually refill it. Splurg a little for the cleaning fluid and an eyedropper. It's the best stuff for unclogging pens and you should clean them with it each time you empty the pen. Seriously, they work better that way. Same goes for brush pens. Brush pens run out. a $3 brush and a $3 bottle of ink will outlast a dozen $3 brushpens.

The Chill Clan · Post by **The Chill Clan** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:42 am

Actually for the ultra thin lines I use a Micron 01 that I've pushed the tip in making it like a 001. I originally did this by accident, but now the first thing I do when I get a new one is "modify" it. That's just me though, if they don't make it I will.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:44 am

Ugh. I was a rapidograph man but they just kept clogging and ruining, that I grew to hate them.

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:44 am

Rapidiographs need to be kept clean. Also you can clog them by rubbing them the wrong way on the paper. Get a sliver of paper stuck in a hole the width of a hair and no ink is coming out of that. One of the tricks to restarting a rapidiograph, though, is to point the nib in the air and tap the butt of it on the table. Doesn't always work but that usually means you've run out of ink and your little ink pod is too covered to tell.

LAGtheNoggin · Post by **LAGtheNoggin** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:28 pm

I originally started out on dip pens and drawing nibs (gillots - cheap and easy to use - sometimes called mapping nibs or pens, some nibs can make extremely fine lines) but since I was brought up on tiny little brushes (yay warhammer) I've started to learn to brush ink.

So far the results have been very pleasing with a Windsor & Newton Series 7 number 2 and the benefits over nibs are obvious. But, uh, I'm kinda' worried about ink and destroying my brushes - brushes ain't cheaper than nibs that's for sure.

At the moment I've got two bottles of Windor & Newton India ink, one's non-waterproof, seems good for the brush, but makes rather weak lines - The other is waterproof india ink that makes a very nice and stark line but wrecks brushes. Which ink do I u~~~se? WHICH? Is there a way to stop waterproof ink brush murder, or must I set asside a special brush with a death wish? ,___,

TheSuburbanLetdown · Post by **TheSuburbanLetdown** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:38 pm

LAGtheNoggin wrote: At the moment I've got two bottles of Windor & Newton India ink, one's non-waterproof, seems good for the brush, but makes rather weak lines - The other is waterproof india ink that makes a very nice and stark line but wrecks brushes. Which ink do I u~~~se? WHICH? Is there a way to stop waterproof ink brush murder, or must I set asside a special brush with a death wish? ,___,

I have the same brush, and use the same non water proof ink. I was actually wondering the same thing as to how much this ink is really damacing my brush, since there's shellac in the ink. But I guess I'll find out soon enough.

LAGtheNoggin · Post by **LAGtheNoggin** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:57 pm

PeppermintAfterlife wrote: the same non water proof ink. I was actually wondering the same thing as to how much this ink is really damacing my brush, since there's shellac in the ink.

Wait - the non waterproof does damage as well (that's the one that disolves in water and is made from Chinese stick ink)? Are you sure you don't mean the waterproof india ink has the shellac? Because if not: Then, well, I'm screwed, or at least my brushes are. Arse.

TheSuburbanLetdown · Post by **TheSuburbanLetdown** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:11 pm

LAGtheNoggin wrote:
PeppermintAfterlife wrote: the same non water proof ink. I was actually wondering the same thing as to how much this ink is really damacing my brush, since there's shellac in the ink.
Wait - the non waterproof does damage as well (that's the one that disolves in water and is made from Chinese stick ink)? Are you sure you don't mean the waterproof india ink has the shellac? Because if not: Then, well, I'm screwed, or at least my brushes are. Arse.

*smacks forhead*
Please excuse my brains. Yes, I meant the water-proof ink with the shellac in it. I was thinking of using the non waterproof, but if it makes weak lines like you say, then damn. I'll try it anyway though.

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:20 pm

If you find the lines are too weak for the non-waterproof, let it dry out a bit. Pour a little of it into a dipper (or a small pillbox/container... I use an old contact lens case for this) and leave it with cap open for about half an hour or so until it thickens. The thicker, the blacker it is.

If it's too thick, you can always distill with water again. They tell me distilled water is best for this, but I just use normal water, although London hard water tends to leave some residue sometimes.

For actual chinese brush painting/writing, we used to use the solid paint slabs (the inksticks india ink is made from) and just added water until we got the consistency we wanted. Too bad they don't seem to sell those here.

LAGtheNoggin · Post by **LAGtheNoggin** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:49 pm

I know a few places that sell those sticks. The best quality sticks (as far as my non-expert-nevertouchedastickinmylife eyes can tell) is a really old worldy art store (well, theatre supplies to be exact) near Covent Garden along Drury Lane, Brodie & Middleton, that I'm pretty sure sell good ink sticks and rubbing blocks. Plus any other ingredients you need for whatever pigment you're after. Quite the store, it's worth a look if you haven't been.

Also, yes, I was originally using very sticky Chinese india ink (better supplied too sticky than too liquid) and that just didn't even work - I spent a very frustrating hour with my brush - "So THIS is why they say it's so hard!". Luckily I tried the waterproof ink and I was promptly in awe of the brush - I then tried to get the same consistency as the waterproof ink with the Chinese ink (yay science lab distilled water) but as I said, the line is definitely weaker. It is adequate though, and if it saves my brushes, I'll stick to it.

The Chill Clan · Post by **The Chill Clan** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:11 am

If you're really methodical, you can keep a brush alive longer by cleaning it and drying properly after every dip in the well. This may seem to take forever, but crazy determined when it comes to inking.

Hartchamber · Post by **Hartchamber** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:08 pm

i used to be a rapidograph person. i switched to rotring about 10 years ago. the nibs for the rotrings last longer(i'm a gouger) than the rapido's and clogged less. i also use the ultra fine sharpie you can get at the office supply places. i'm experimenting right now with the gel pens, but they dont seem to like card stock too well.

LAGtheNoggin · Post by **LAGtheNoggin** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:03 pm

The Chill Clan wrote:If you're really methodical, you can keep a brush alive longer by cleaning it and drying properly

Uhm, what's the proper way to do that?