Flashbacks or no Flashbacks...?

OnyxSerpent · Post by **OnyxSerpent** » Sun May 23, 2004 9:19 pm

...That is the question.

For my main (even though I haven't worked on it for ages) comic, Without Mercy, I am completely unsure as to which way to go about drawing it. After a year of continually expanding it's 25 plus character cast and exceptionally crazy plot, I have lost all conception of where the story should start and have therefore created quite the problem for myself. Basically, there's about 3 different ways I could go through the comic, and I'm not sure which is best. Keep in mind that this comic will be dealing mainly with immortals, so characters live for a very long time in most cases.

If I went in chronological order, it would probably be easiest, but then I wouldn't get to the main cast (it's only the main cast because it has the greatest number of characters and has been around the longest) for a really REALLY long time, because I want to tell the stories of some ancestors and such. By going that way, the readers would have a fairly good grasp on the world that the story takes place in, and things such as the demon council would make a lot more sense, not to mention I wouldn't be interrupting the storyline for a 30 or so page flashback that tells the life story that happened a good hundred thousand years ago. On the bad side, if I thought up another ancestor that I wanted to work in, I wouldn't be able to because of I would be trying to eliminate all flashbacks in the story unless it wouldn't work otherwise.

Another option is to have one of the characters "translate" old journals and therfore let me tell the story in almost whatever order I wished before continuing with the main cast. I would probably start near the beginning of the main section so I wouldn't have to do any flashbacks besides the journal translations.
If I didn't start at the beginning of the main section, I'd start in the "break" between the two sections, then have a giant flashback to explain what happened in the first section when I was done telling the stories of the ancestors of the characters. However, this could be utterly confusing to both the reader and myself.

The final option is to start at one of the three places that could start the main part of the comic (the more I think about the starting spots, the more that I find, especially for that section of the story), and run through with it until I reach the "break" in the two halves of the main section, then tell the stories of the ancestors, then have the second half of the main section.
Or I could run all the way through the main character section, and then have all the ancestor parts when I run out of ideas for the main cast.
Unfortunately, either of these would make things a little bit more confusing and make the ancestor part rather pointless due to the fact that it's mainly to explain the history of the world and demon politics.

... Thank goodness Vermilion Cage doesn't have this problem.
Anyway, I just don't want to start working on it, then have to redraw it again because the way I set it up isn't working quite right. I've probably restarted WM at least 8 times by now, which has utterly frusturated my friends. I'd be greatful for any input on this matter, and if you want more details of what the plots are that I'm trying to juggle, feel free to ask.

JexKerome · Post by **JexKerome** » Mon May 24, 2004 12:55 am

I can show what NOT to do in the flahsbacks: go here and look for the topic on Bad Flashbacks.

And I 'd choose the "Highlander Option": have the main cast apepar from the beginning, then flashback as the past becomes relevant.

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Mon May 24, 2004 6:10 am

It's not so much Flashback or no, it's how you handle it.

If you can handle it fine, then do it.

My next chapter is one giant flashback interspersed over real-time (yes, it's a pain to write).

As long as it can hang together in a coherent story, it's fine.

Grayswandir · Post by **Grayswandir** » Mon May 24, 2004 6:56 am

You could always do it Quintin (Quentin?) Tarantino style and start in the middle or at the end

DEVO-Bot · Post by **DEVO-Bot** » Mon May 24, 2004 11:29 am

As far as epic stories go, I prefer the first option, actually--start from the very beginning. Icelandic sagas, as well as most of my favorite legendary texts, almost all do this, and it isn't irritating at all. In fact, most of the time, the 'main characters' ancestors take up about a third of the book, the main character themselves another third, and then the last third is what happens once they're dead. They're really neat reads, and give you such incredible depth of family history and the world they're living in. It's especially handy if your plot involves a blood feud that started generations ago.

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Mon May 24, 2004 4:18 pm

My comic starts almost 5 years after the event that actually started the story and using only one relevant character. My theory is basically this, clueless characters mirror the reader. The reader and the characters discover elements of the world at the same time so it makes the writing easy. Only the elements that actually appear in the story to date are known by the reader and the characters alike. It's very easy to see which parts still need to be told and who best to tell them with, especially if the characters are inquisitive. (I hope that made sense.)

The translating old manuscripts sounds interesting but that shouldn't be the only way characters get their information. You seem to want your story to evolve as you go so fixing it in stone might not be the best thing for you.

OnyxSerpent · Post by **OnyxSerpent** » Mon May 24, 2004 4:18 pm

I already did look through HNTRAC on the matter.. It was the first place I looked to see if there was anything that would help me decide.

I wouldn't mind if they were short flashbacks, but the entire lifetime of an immortal seems a bit too long for a flashback, considering that each would probably be a chapter or two at least on their own. I could almost easily leave them out of the story... But I really like the stories of the ancestors so I don't want to end up just wasting the thought I put into them.

Heh, well it does involve several different blood feuds of sorts.

Well, I was leaning towards the straight forward chronological order way of writing it since I think I've long since forgotten what was supposed to be a flashback and what wasn't. I don't feel like I'd be able to intersperse flashbacks throughout the entire story without forgetting something major... (I'm just so confident in my abilities, can't you tell?) At least with chronological order, there'd be less of a chance of me forgetting it (unless I forgot something roughly the size of a small moon, in which case I'd probably have enough of an excuse to go back and add it later.).

Do you people really care if there are long, complicated flashbacks dispersed in parts of the story where there's not much going on (or in sort of 'explain to me what is going on' type of scenes)?

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Mon May 24, 2004 5:09 pm

From a story-writing perspective, it doesn't matter much. The problem - which is exaserpated by the slow updates of comics - is that either the beginning or the flashbacks can go on far too long and bore people to tears waiting for something to happen. Most of the interesting comics throw the reader in at the deep end, beginning at some massive change in the life of the main character so the story can start immediatly. Starting highschool, starting college, starting a job... Anything relevant about their past comes up as needed. Keeps things moving and is particularly important for comics. Few people will read three hundred pages of a book before finding out what it's about and even fwer will wait a year for something current and relevant to happen in a webcomic.

- Joel Fagin

Hiye · Post by **Hiye** » Mon May 24, 2004 5:11 pm

My comic is on the verge of a flashback as well. It takes place ten months after the event happened that caused all the emotional suffering and trauma for the main character, and he explains it to the unsuspecting best friend (who acts in place of the reader).

About the long, complicated flashbacks - if it works for your story, go for it. It all greatly depends - if you're doing something with heavy plot and a lot of history, which you are, then it's a good idea to have long and intricate flashbacks in less active scenes. Extra background information can always do good.

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Mon May 24, 2004 5:15 pm

You can tell the story as a series of story arcs where some involve the main characters and others are completely done flashback style, involving different characters with maybe a brief introduction by the main characters. If you let part of the story conclude before jumping into a long flashback, you'll have a logical break between the two story arcs and the reader won't be as confused. Even a long, epic story can be composed of multiple story arcs where the little events are more important but they still move the main story along.

Chibiartstudios · Post by **Chibiartstudios** » Mon May 24, 2004 11:30 pm

There are lots of ways to reveal the past. Flashbacks are just the best known.

You don't always need to have a big ordeal. For textbook like stuff you can have the characters just sitting around talking about it. use this one carefully though as the risk of it beacoming boring are high. Though the benifits of comics not writen, and thus time saved, are priceless. My only tip it to use this one when brought up. Not:

"Hey! You want to know something about elves? They...." on for a page

Instead, make it relevent. Like ariving at a ruins:

"Yes... These are the ruins of my ancestors... they wiped themselves out when..."

and so on

Which brings me to another way to reveal backstory. Places. Interesting places make interesting history. Why else do people dig up ruins for a living? A place can tell alot about a people/time/place.

Fights and other confrontations are a prime place for background to be revieled. Emoions run high and the past usualy beacomes vitaly important. like this:

*after brief sparing match*
"You are weak old man!"

'Feh! Don't mock me boy! I'm not just some old man you know! I WAS A KING!!!'

Then you could go into a flashback then or simply go with the talking about it method.

Back to flashbacks though, in a normal book or graphic novel a reader goes through the material much faster giving the writer more actual pages to capture interest. In webcomics though I'd say you have around 5. After that, remember that 6 pages can take a week. Long flashbacks are not recomended. Instead, try to use quick flashes and go back and forth alot. Naruto does that (remember the fight with Garra?) and it works. Keep this in mind when writing. (Yes! I know that I did the 1 sentace per page thing! Stop bringing it up and learn from my mistake!)

As for where to start I would recomend that you

A) Start with the characters that are the "main characters". Don't get us attatched to characters then after years say "No! THESE are the ones you need to love."

B) Assuming this is an epic with little comedy, start with an intense scene with high emotion where you can really strut your art stuff. You will do just that and the readers will know what to expect in the climaxes later. Pros call this the "hook"

So that's it for me. Any other thoughts?

Chibiartstudios · Post by **Chibiartstudios** » Mon May 24, 2004 11:36 pm

One more thing you could do. Break it up into two different series. Each revealing things about the other

Series A: Ancestors are the main characters

Series B: Current people are the main charactors

In series B you reveal the extent and consequences of small, seemingly inconsequential acts seen in series A. And in Series A you reveal how the past affected series B in ways not actualy revealed in Series B. You know, Who is whos kid, who rose to power, who died, etc.

But, like my philosophy for everything though: Just have fun with it! Night!

Alschroeder · Post by **Alschroeder** » Tue May 25, 2004 8:00 am

Do all three.
And yes, that IS a helpful answer. This is HTML. We can give them a choice.
For instance, in the opening page of my origin sequence (forgive the awful art, I've improved since then, honest), my "cover", I offer people a choice on how to do it. They can go directly to the action, they can go to the longish prologue, or they can go to the actual origin, which may not make much sense without the prologue.
You don't have to choose.
You can give THEM the choice instead...and do something no print cartoonist can do.---Al
PS. I KNEW I forgot something---the page I'm talking about is at http://mindmistress.keenspace.com/mmistress1.htm

Grayswandir · Post by **Grayswandir** » Tue May 25, 2004 8:09 am

I still think you should do it Quentin Tarintino style...but thats just me...*thinks, wonders if it'd actually work in a comic*

Post by **Mercury Hat** » Tue May 25, 2004 9:31 am

I'd say write it out, all three ways first, then see which one works best. If you've got a "set in the present but told flashback" style, make sure that the flashback doesn't overshadow the present if something major's happening. If the present isn't all that interesting then consider focusing on the past first.

Using the characters to dictate it, like faub mentioned, is a good way to do it. In my comic, there's a brief "history lesson" and the revealing of a family secret, but it only makes up about three pages of the whole comic. As the two main characters meet new characters, there will be more to be told, more past to be revealed. You already know all there is to know about the two main characters, so anyone new to them is new to the reader, too.

Just don't throw out a bunch of names and happenings that won't be relevant to the current plot of the comic. Focus on what, in the flashback, will be important to the characters in the present storyline.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Tue May 25, 2004 12:56 pm

Grayswandir wrote:You could always do it Quintin (Quentin?) Tarantino style and start in the middle or at the end

That's what just came to my mind.
I did something similar in one story, although just for an effect, it's not like I needed flashback.

Anyway, flashback is not a leap from continuity, cause when flashback occurs, it's implied that in present moment of a comic, one of characters is either remembering or talking about the content of the flashback.

I'm really interested in what Pin is planning to do in his comic, he mentioned that he started the story from the middle.

OnyxSerpent · Post by **OnyxSerpent** » Tue May 25, 2004 5:24 pm

I thought up yet another idea after reading all your posts (I'm glad everyone here is so helpful here ^^), and I think it might actually work... Or at least, in my mind it'd work.

Firstly, I think I'd start out with a quick two or three page prologue in which there would be one of the main cast having a nightmare, or perhaps a nice battle of sorts, but no words in that section. Next, I'll make up an actual timeline/calendar for the comic so that way I can put little date things at the top whenever it changes years/months/whatever. I'll then go back in time (as far as where the prologue-y thingy takes place) and start the first chapter at the point when the character that has the nightmare or is involved in the battle's father was a kid.. Have a few pages there, then skip to the part when that character is born, and follow him along. After a while, I'll skip the same bits and pieces I was planning to anyway, then jump forward to where another main character appears, have a page or two, then skip another year or so. Throughout this all, I'll hopefully work in all the main part of the history of the characters' ancestors, mainly as parts of a story that different characters are retelling to others. Then I'll continue on as I had schemed before. I'll follow the lives of the main couple of characters fairly closely and won't have flashbacks for them, but allow the other characters to have flashbacks of sorts. It should, in theory, also allow me to go back and add any small moon sized sections of the story that I might create later just as long as they're not linked to the main characters I follow. And hopefully this has all made sense.

Any comments/thoughts on whether this might work or not and whether it sounds sort of like a good idea?

Yiff the Zombie Fox · Post by **Yiff the Zombie Fox** » Wed May 26, 2004 7:01 am

Think for a moment how a television series would handle this kind of flashback. As an example one of my favourite shows is Angel, which is coincidentally about an immortal vampire as its main character.

While most of the episodes are set in the modern day and told in chronological order you'll have many episodes which are set around 50/50 in modern day and the old world whenever Angel comes face to face with something or someone from their past. Sometimes the relationship will be merely symbolic.

This would translate well to a graphic novel (though you'd need some clear way to differentiate flashbacks from modern stories). If you feel confident and comfortable doing this you can crossover between modern and old stories by intertwining both of them into the one theme or idea. This can be done very cleverly so that up until the very end of the episode you're not sure quite how the flashback leads into the modern time.

While it can be difficult, the things you can set up with this kind of structure are incredible. Plus the modern comic-reading audience likes complexity and new tricks. It keeps them from getting bored with the old chronological storyline running from beginning to end.