Plot Feedback?

[AlienComix]

I'm sorta kinda planning a comic, and I'd like some feedback on the plot of it. I have concept art of it, but most of it is on 11x14 paper, and neither of my scanners are that big.

Light of Day, Day of Darkness

A Christian-influenced (Meaning that it's not a Christian comic. No nice little morals at the end of each Episode/Issue/etc., just influenced by Christianity) post-cyberpunk tale that handles depressing themes, and examines the use of government propaganda.

It's set in Rome, in 2079, sixteen years after a cataclysmic event only known as "THE". THE is an event that no one has been able to describe, and its origins are completely unknown. The people who lived through it have not forgotten it, they simply can't describe it in words. General opinion in Rome seems to believe that it was a punishment of God, or a second "cleansing" of the world.

Ever since THE, Rome cut itself off from the world, becoming its own self-sufficient country. It is unknown if the rest of the world has recovered from THE, or if the rest of the world still exists.

Those born after THE are called the "Innocents" or the "Pure".

The characters of Light of Day inhabit a district of Rome known as Rajii Outlines, or R/O. This district is under the jurisdiction of the Bleeding Mary Authority, which is a "Modified Theocracy", meaning that they use a democratic system of government, but take laws directly from the Bible.

Characters

Main Character:

A/N (Pronounced "Ann"):
Age: 15
Ethnicity: White/Italian
Religion: Unknown, most likely agnostic.

A mute girl who happens to be a brilliant artist. Possesses no real fighting talent, but always carries several knives around with her, and a .9mm pistol. Extremely shy and reclusive personality, but also very possessive. Not much is known about her past, whether she remembers it or not is unknown.

Supporting Characters:

iii (Pronounced "Three")
Age: 21
Ethnicity: White
Religion: Agnostic

Computer hacker with an extremely unstable personality, possibly bi-polar. Acts as a surrogate brother to A/N, allows her to live in his apartment. Attends the occasional class at the Bleeding Mary University. Works as the technology expert for the Final Stand, a group working for the government to apprehend criminals. Also has no real fighting talent, at least compared to Ph4nt0m Cr0w and Greii.

Ph4nt0m Cr0w
Age: 23
Ethnicity: Black
Religion: Christian

Acts as the muscle and leader of the Final Stand. An extremely built girl, loaded to the brim with various body modifications. Can be extremely violent, but usually is very calm and controlled.

Greii (Pronounced "Gray")
Age:19
Ethnicity: Black
Religion: Christian

iii's girlfriend. Acts as a part-time sniper for the Final Stand, and attends the Bleeding Mary University as a full-time student.

[Vulpeslibertas]

I feel like ranting a bit now, so please excuse any bitter-sounding long-winded abrasive harshness. It's not personal, my appologies if you're new around here.

First off [begin evil abrasive harshness], I'd change the character names. They sound like clever, cool-sounding names that a writer would think up, not like actual names that actual people would ever use. Also, if you have to tell us how to pronounce them, your readers will be totally lost. On the plus side, they're different enough from each other so they won't be easily confused (Say, if you had three characters named Grei, Grea and Grey).

Second, your main character A/N sounds like a Mysterious Character of Mysterious Mysteriousness. It sounds like you don't know anything about her, you just want her to be mysterious and didn't think any further ahead than that. As your lead character, you should know those unknowns. It doesn't matter if your audience ever knows them, it doesn't matter if you really use them in your comic, but you should know because it will reflect in your work.

I don't know how many trashy manga rip-offs begin with a 3rd person voice-over by a Mysterious Character of Mysterious Mysteriousness. Usually they're on a mysterious mission in a mysterious place, in a mysterious post-appocolyptic/time-travel/parallel dimention. My comic starts with a mysterious third person voice over of mystery and it makes me want to cut off my script-writing hand every time I think about it.

As long as this is not what you are doing, have fun. If you do do it, then before forwarned and try not to copy every other movie/anime/comic in existance that does this.

Overall, your characters seem bland. It won't seem like this to you, and you're probably clutching your monitor now asking what the hell I'm thinking, since you obviously took the time to diversify them. To me, it looks like you probably have a group of Mary Sue school kids. They're all about 20, and are mostly bad-ass chicks who are probably more competant than all the 50 year old generals and elite combat vets who surround them. All the differences look like asthetic differences you threw on after the fact to disguise the fact that the characters are so very much alike.

Finally, you didn't really post a plot. It's a setting. There are many stories that use this kind of setting, some of them are good, some of them are bad. This is a very over-used worn-out genre, especially in Anime/Manga. All that means is that you'll have to work hard to stand out.

The best story-development system I can think of is to pick a basic starting point. This you already have: your setting. Next, pick a main theme or idea you want to develop. This may be how humanity needs to work together to survive, or could just be that one image in your head of the shy quiet girl kicking the big tough general in the jaw. It doesn't have to be earth-shattering. Third, pick an ending, a destination. Once you have this, you can play connect the dots and fill in the gaps. Don't be affriad to cut stuff out that doesn't fit. This is hard to do either way, but it's easier when you know where you're comming from and where you're going to.
[/ evil abrasive harshness]

As always, it's your story, your characters. Write a story that you want. I'll quite possibly never read it, so my opinion means all of that. Good luck, welcome to the webcomicking world.

[AlienComix]

First off [begin evil abrasive harshness], I'd change the character names. They sound like clever, cool-sounding names that a writer would think up, not like actual names that actual people would ever use. Also, if you have to tell us how to pronounce them, your readers will be totally lost. On the plus side, they're different enough from each other so they won't be easily confused (Say, if you had three characters named Grei, Grea and Grey).

Well, I didn't exactly want those names just because they sounded cool. I wanted them to show how much of the influence of the internet had seeped into actual life. Then again, I didn't explain that, so that's my fault. It was 2:00 EST and I was drifting off to sleep while posting this. I will consider changing the names, though.

Overall, your characters seem bland. It won't seem like this to you, and you're probably clutching your monitor now asking what the hell I'm thinking, since you obviously took the time to diversify them. To me, it looks like you probably have a group of Mary Sue school kids. They're all about 20, and are mostly bad-ass chicks who are probably more competant than all the 50 year old generals and elite combat vets who surround them. All the differences look like asthetic differences you threw on after the fact to disguise the fact that the characters are so very much alike.

Here's the idea behind that. Typically, in cyberpunk, you have some "kick-ass, take-no-shit" heroine, and that's why I made A/N. A/N prefers running to fighting, and carries weapons around because she has to. She's mute, she can't scream for help if she gets to a situation with someone. She'd be pretty screwed without her weapons, and she's not proficient at all with them.

I can see why seem bland, because of the skimpy biography I gave each of them, which once again was because I was drifting off to sleep.

The Final Stand isn't that good at what they do, but they have to do it to survive. Then again, it isn't that hard to catch a criminal. They mostly go after petty thieves. There's not going to be a linear progression where they go after criminals of increasing difficulty (like Super!Criminal -> SuperDuper!Criminal -> SuperDuper!CriminalBossGuy). Sounds boring, but they aren't the main characters.

Finally, you didn't really post a plot. It's a setting. There are many stories that use this kind of setting, some of them are good, some of them are bad. This is a very over-used worn-out genre, especially in Anime/Manga. All that means is that you'll have to work hard to stand out.

I know I didn't. I was going to, but I was tired. Guess I'll just post it here.

Once again, this story doesn't follow the Final Stand. It follows A/N. Of course, there will be sub-plots involving A/N and the Final Stand.

The story mostly follows the progression of her art, which eventually lands her a job with the Vatican government designing propaganda posters. It also follows the discovery of exactly happened during THE.

When she goes out into the world and shows her art, that's how you learn about the setting in the comic. You also learn the different perspectives on THE. Hopefully, that will eliminate any overly long blocks of exposition.

Child birth after THE is relatively uncommon. That combined with her art skills makes A/N extremely hot property (Before you ask, she doesn't have a special birthmark that indicates that she's an Innocent. None of them do. They still keep birth certificates in this period) Some of the religious cults start believing that she was blessed/touched/chosen by God, and that studying her artwork will lead them to enlightenment. So naturally, that's when the kidnapping attempts start. Although the Final Stand tries to stop them, eventually a group simply called Mundi succeeds.

Uh oh, time for another skimpy character bio.

Mary
Age: 16
Ethnicity: White
Religion: Christian, at least at first.

A girl that has lived in seclusion much like A/N. Very impulsive (She is not meant to be the complete opposite of A/N, before that comes up) and childlike, often doesn't understand the ramifications of her actions. Is said to have been born on the exact moment of THE, and is thought to be the reincarnation of Mary by the Christian Extremist group known as Mundi. Giggles uncontrollably, and is prone to random seizures and spasms, which are seen by Mundi to be messages from God. Has been raped by members of the group to produce a second Messiah, but all attempts have been unsuccessful.

These experiences have left Mary insane, and sexually deviant.

Anyway, Mary and A/N share a "Influx Room" (Read: A jail cell) together. Mundi simply treats Mary and A/N as a way for God to transfer messages to them. At the this point, the two girls start a Friendship/Relationship thing.

And, that's as far as I've gotten.

I do know one thing though, it all leads up to a huge Civil War between the Vatican Government and the various Extremist groups.

[NakedElf]

Well, I didn't exactly want those names just because they sounded cool. I wanted them to show how much of the influence of the internet had seeped into actual life.

I agree with vulpes. If I, the reader, don't know how to pronounce things in your comic, I don't care <I>Why</i> you named the characters that. I just care that I, the reader, am confused and unable to pronounce the character names.

I have a story set in China/Mongolia. Yes, the characters speak a combination of Chinese and Mongolian. I don't *write the story* in Chinese/Mongolian, because no one would know what it meant!

*edited for personal stupidity*


As for your plot, nice start. I would caution, though, that plots tend to be better when the main character is the one *doing* the action, not receiving it. I.e. getting kidnapped can be a good way to start a plot and get the main character into a bad situation, but from there the character has to start doing things and trying to fix their situation. You've mentioned sort of a lot of things which happen *to* Anne, but very little which she herself *does* in response.

What does she want? What are her motivations? What does she think of all this? Do she believe she has some sort of powers? Does she just want to be left alone to do her art? Does she figure out that she can manipulate people's beliefs in her? Is she in love? Does she want love? Does she want to avoid love?

Finally, in a post-apocalyptic Catholic world, I imagine that people would see the return of Christ and immanent ascension into Heaven as about to occur, and so not really care about the production of offspring, given that they're not going to have time to grow up, anyway.

[Mobi]

*edited - problem fixed =)

[NakedElf]

Arg, thanks. *edited*

[Vulpeslibertas]

Remember that any plot or character can be made interesting, some are just easier than others. What makes a story good isn't the plot, it's how you as the artist depict that plot. Any rule that anyone ever gives you has a time and a place to be broken, but know why that rule exists and what you're going to do to circumvent it first.

How A/N deals with her problems emotionaly could be a very interesting drama in and of itself, even if you relegated all the post-appocolyptic cyber-stuff to mere background detail (or even non-existant).

[Aiken]

Might also be an idea to focus on the group dynamics, maby even to the extent of making the rest of the team the main characters and have the plot involve how they handly the strange girl A/N they encounter.

[Moonlightace]

Second, your main character A/N sounds like a Mysterious Character of Mysterious Mysteriousness. It sounds like you don't know anything about her, you just want her to be mysterious and didn't think any further ahead than that. As your lead character, you should know those unknowns. It doesn't matter if your audience ever knows them, it doesn't matter if you really use them in your comic, but you should know because it will reflect in your work.

I don't know how many trashy manga rip-offs begin with a 3rd person voice-over by a Mysterious Character of Mysterious Mysteriousness. Usually they're on a mysterious mission in a mysterious place, in a mysterious post-appocolyptic/time-travel/parallel dimention. My comic starts with a mysterious third person voice over of mystery and it makes me want to cut off my script-writing hand every time I think about it.

MUST voice disagreement there, Personally I'm a fan of the mysterious character of mysterious mysteriousness, and you have to admit it can work very well IF its done correctly.

What you say is right...If the author has no idea about the characters past...and is making them seem mysterious for the hell of it...yeah, They're boned...Yet if its all thought out though it can be great. Theres always an air of mystery there (The good kind) about why they are the way they are and why they do the things they do...And when little bits are thrown to the audience they start piecing the puzzle together themselves.

And when/If the characters whole history is revealed it can completely change the ballgame. Black or white actions become a shade of grey, Because you know WHY they're doing what they're doing. For example:

"Sure John killed the guy...but he killed the guy because he looked like the peg legged pirate who killed Johns father and kicked his dog a few times"

You can't build that kind of depth all at once. whats the best way to get there a bit at a time? An air of mystery to break it up a little.

And a character with a history (explained or not) is WAY more engaging than a character without one.

and....if you don't have ALL of their history making them mysterious can buy you time to think bout it

[Adobedragon]

What does she want? What are her motivations? What does she think of all this? Do she believe she has some sort of powers? Does she just want to be left alone to do her art? Does she figure out that she can manipulate people's beliefs in her? Is she in love? Does she want love? Does she want to avoid love?

Basically, what NakedElf said...

In my opinion, you really haven't posted a plot yet. Just a very vague list of things that will happen to your protagonist. There is an allusion to kidnapping, which I assume is the inciting incident, but frankly, it's unclear if that happen to A/N or someone else. In general, it's a good idea to begin a story in media res, in the middle of things, as it were.

Which means, avoiding the mistake most beginning writers (myself included with my comic) make of starting at the "beginning." Writers of speculative fiction (F, SF, H) are especially prone to the "long setup."

In other words, if A/N's kidnapping is the inciting incident, it should be one of the very first things to happen. I'm all too aware of the desire to start the story days, months, years before in order to "establish" who the characters are, their backgrounds etc. As a writer, there is always a concern that people won't care about your character because they don't know them. Consequently, the writer starts with what is essentially backstory, hoping to create reader empathy.

This rarely works, however, because there is nothing at stake. Just people going about their business in a world that the writer "hopes" is interesting. Ultimately, it's far more effective to start where thing really get rolling, drop in enough detail to loosely establish who A/N is and the world she inhabits, and then amp things up with the kidnapping.

Here's the idea behind that. Typically, in cyberpunk, you have some "kick-ass, take-no-shit" heroine, and that's why I made A/N. A/N prefers running to fighting, and carries weapons around because she has to.

Actually, I like that. The "kick-ass, take-no-shit" heroine (usually inexplicably bitter and alienated) is a staple in paranormal fantasy as well. Frankly, I'm a bit tired of <a href="http://www.kitwhitfield.com/2006/09/mar ... html">Mary Sue with Bad Attitude (Snappy Sue)</a>.

[AlienComix]

Might also be an idea to focus on the group dynamics, maybe even to the extent of making the rest of the team the main characters and have the plot involve how they handle the strange girl A/N they encounter.

Heh, this was actually the way I had it at first. "iii" was supposed to be the main character. I just decided to give A/N the spotlight so I could take the story in a different direction.

In my opinion, you really haven't posted a plot yet. Just a very vague list of things that will happen to your protagonist.

This is true. I haven't actually spent much time on the plot, just trying to work on the artwork so it could portray the story efficiently.

In other words, if A/N's kidnapping is the inciting incident, it should be one of the very first things to happen. I'm all too aware of the desire to start the story days, months, years before in order to "establish" who the characters are, their backgrounds etc. As a writer, there is always a concern that people won't care about your character because they don't know them. Consequently, the writer starts with what is essentially backstory, hoping to create reader empathy.

Like I said, I didn't plan to bore the reader with loads of backstory. However, I don't want to jump into the main plot too quickly.

Here's what I have for Episode One so far:

Episode One: Constructive Abolishment

(Main Plot): A/N is looking for a little exposure for her art, and the upcoming Rajii Outlines street festival would be the perfect place to do this. The Final Stand sets up a stand for her in hopes of attracting Nix Franco, and the sales start rolling in. However, A/N finds herself in trouble when her artwork is combined with a little religious fanaticism. Representatives from the Christian Extremist group Mundi start attempting to enlist for her services. When she refuses, they step up to harassment.

(Sub Plot): Rajii Outlines has enlisted the services of a new commissioner: Nix Franco. As everyone knows, sucking up to the new guy can lead to endless benefits in the future. The Final Stand is strapped for cash, so decide to pay a visit to the new commissioner at a R/O street festival. A little "persuasion", and their money problems could be over for good.

So, as you can see, the event that ties everything together here is the R/O street festival, which is like a bazaar with occasional entertainment.

Characters Involved: A/N, iii, Ph4nt0m Cr0w, Greii, George, Mary

George
Age: 15
Ethnicity: White
Religion: Christian

George is from a family deeply rooted in Mundi. A shy, but very intelligent boy, he attends school at the Bleeding Mary Academy, and is currently in the 12th grade. He plans to be a Biblical Scholar for the Vatican, as he doesn't agree with the ideals of Mundi. Is a good friend of A/N, and sometimes sells her artwork at the BMA.

After THE, George's family moved from the decaying U.S.A., into the relative safety of Rome. His parents joined Mundi in hopes of gaining acceptance in the community, but found that the group was more than they could handle. Because of George's intelligence, Mundi demanded that he be transferred into their services after he was of age. George refused to join the group, which caused the subsequent punishment of his parents. He still doesn't know where his parents are, and he supports himself by working at a nearby convenience store. He also takes commissions from A/N's artwork.

Mary later develops a disturbing interest in George. She rapes him, partially as a punishment from Mundi ("Because he does not abide by the Word, and the divine might that God has given to us, he has lost the right to his innocence" - According to Mundi), and forces him into a relationship with her.

^That happens much later, not in the first episode, or the second. Probably in the seventh.

Mary: (Episode One) While the Final Stand is meeting Nix Franco, a group from Mundi appears in front of A/N. Mary appears as one of A/N's harassers, attempting to sway her with words at first, and then having a "seizure". When she refuses, Mary and her escorts beat A/N heavily, leaving her nearly incapacitated.

Mary first develops an interest in George in this episode, noticing him when he demands that the agents from Mundi leave A/N alone. She admires his courage, and his innocence. He receives a note from Mary at the end of the episode, asking for him to join her at a nearby coffee shop.

Mundi: Mundi was formed a year after THE. The sole purpose of this group is to intercept messages from God, and to interpret them for the general public. At first, they were a Vatican-sanctioned group, but split away when the government didn't comply with some of their wishes. At this time, a man named Isaboli Demeter took the High Priest position at Mundi, and pushed the group away from the Vatican, turning to crime in order to support their efforts (Called "Necessary Evil" by Isaboli).

Isaboli is still in control of Mundi, and their motives have become increasingly obscure.

^I don't want people to interpret Mundi as the stereotypical "evil" group. Yes, Mundi does cause a lot of problems for A/N, but she finds that the Vatican can cause just as much. There's good people within Mundi (Like George, who is technically owned by Mundi, no matter how much he doesn't want to admit it), just like there are bad people.

Sorry that all this information is kind of disorganized.

[[geoduck]]

A note on the setting: if Rome is completely cut off from the rest of the world, you should give some thoughts about how the society sustains itself. Where is the food grown? Where is the power generated? It's not something that you have to spell out in grinding detail to the reader, but it helps with suspension of disbelief if you keep these ideas in mind and mention them should the need arise as you do the plot.

[NakedElf]

However, A/N finds herself in trouble when her artwork is combined with a little religious fanaticism. Representatives from the Christian Extremist group Mundi start attempting to enlist for her services.

What exactly does this mean?

[Vulpeslibertas]

...Personally I'm a fan of the mysterious character of mysterious mysteriousness, and you have to admit it can work very well IF its done correctly.

The MCMM is a great way to intro a character whith drama and style. It can also be an excuse for lazy writers. Especially when combined with the Strange Setting of Strange Strangeness and the Secret Mission of Secret Secretness.

The mystery enhances the drama and engages the readers attention. It causes the reader to wonder what will happen next. If there are too many mysterious things going on, then the reader begins to wonder why they should care. I've got an anime on my shelf right now that I may never watch. They spend the first two disks being mysterious, then by the time the plot actually strolls in I'm wondering if I actually care anymore. And the answer is: No I don't.

The thing I'm particularly concerned about in this case is that A/N sounds like the beginning of a character which instead of being fleshed out, is hidden by a cloak of "oh, well...she's just mysterious." As the driving character of the comic, the author had better have a pretty darned good idea what the mystery is about. Not that anything has to be set in stone, it just helps to have a set direction or two to take the story in.

I think this is a workable plot skeleton, but specifics need to be worked out. What does "harrassment" consist of? What you really need to do is summerize "harrasment" into a 5-pages-or-less (or maybe more) event. If you spend time going through 5 or 6 events where A/N is harrassed, you're going to lose your audience from boredom. Is this where she gets kidnapped? What happens then? How does she get out?

There's nothing wrong with the plot, but it needs more fleshing out. Now is also the time to begin exploring exactly how you will portray the story. Move beyond the vauge overarching concept and begin working with the specific details. Webcomic audiences don't understand paragraphs of bio, they understand scenes and settings. This is perhaps the most vital aspect of storytelling: What scenes will you use to depict your story?

Remember, also, that you have to draw all of this out. If you update a page per week, then a 4 page sequence will take a whole month. Your readers will also have to wait a month.

[/blah blah blah]

EDIT: What I'm really trying to say is: Now's where you write: "A/N walks down the dark alley where the mysterious bad guys beat her up and take her lunch money, laughing maniacly. A day passes - this is shown by a montage of A/N's daily life. A/N walks toward the dark alley, hesitating. A/N gets beaten up by the bad guys before she can even enter they alley. This time, they don't even bother to take her lunch money." instead of "A/N gets harrassed alot, lol"

[NakedElf]

There's a striking difference in my experience between a good mysterious character and a bad one.

Bad one: Joe grew up alone and abandoned in the woods, but somehow managed to learn to speak English and interact like a normal human! Also, catching prey with his hands has made him an excellent swordsman!

Good one: Joe was raised by a succession of foster-parents and as a result is emotionally guarded and wary of people who claim to like him. He had to learn to fight because of his rough childhood, and over the years became skilled enough to be hired as a bouncer for a local tavern and eventually a mercenary in the king's army.

In other words, if a character is missing something in their background, it should affect who they are as a person. Fully formed normal people don't just grow out of the ground.

[Datachasers]

!?!? why does this plot sound familer? rome? *shurgs*

kidnapping? heh (twitches) it seems really similar in places to my strip
but diffrent enough that i wouldnt mind seeing what it looks like

both are post apocalypic (sp)
both have heavy female leads ( i dont mind )
and both use odd sounding names ( made up of number letters )

i think this is really funny - now im really curious to see it