I'm redesigning my sites and gearing up for a relaunch. I'm overcoming technical problems but I need help. I want to know how I can format the comics themselves to make them read better and encourage folks to stick around. Acting on some suggestions, I've posted some examples on this blog -
http://www.norightsproductions.com/defa ... ?page_id=4
The site they're on now means nothing, it's just the closest I could get to a blank slate with comments. Feel free to click thru and comment on what works and what doesn't. I'd really appreciate the feedback. Thanks
Which format reads clearest and why?
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Dr Neo Lao
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Of the options posted, I'd prefer the size of option #3 (medium 2x2 format) with the 'rounder' speech bubbles of option #1.
The 'raggedy' speech bubbles seem a little harder to read for me, but for single sample strips it's a bit harder to tell if everyone will speak that way or just some specific characters. So if your "normal" characters (whatever that definition covers) have easy-to-read speech bubbles and your 'evil' characters (or whatever) have the 'raggedy' speech bubbles, then that would work.
The 'raggedy' speech bubbles seem a little harder to read for me, but for single sample strips it's a bit harder to tell if everyone will speak that way or just some specific characters. So if your "normal" characters (whatever that definition covers) have easy-to-read speech bubbles and your 'evil' characters (or whatever) have the 'raggedy' speech bubbles, then that would work.
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Joel Fagin
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I agree with Neo, but I had an interesting thought.
The larger comic is better for readability but it's larger than an 800x600 browser window, which isn't so good. My idea was that you could chop it in half (if it'll always be four frames) and then it'll word wrap. That is, if it fits on one line, it'll look normal. If not, it'll stack over two lines like example 3.
I also think you use too many ovals for speech. The last frame in the second comic is a good example but it's all over the place. It breaks up the speech in my mind and makes it sound disjointed. Individual bubbles usually represent a stand alone comment. Two connected simply mean two separate comments.
- Joel Fagin
The larger comic is better for readability but it's larger than an 800x600 browser window, which isn't so good. My idea was that you could chop it in half (if it'll always be four frames) and then it'll word wrap. That is, if it fits on one line, it'll look normal. If not, it'll stack over two lines like example 3.
I also think you use too many ovals for speech. The last frame in the second comic is a good example but it's all over the place. It breaks up the speech in my mind and makes it sound disjointed. Individual bubbles usually represent a stand alone comment. Two connected simply mean two separate comments.
- Joel Fagin
Only one character has the raggedy bubbles and only when he's in skeleton form so over-all the bubbles usually look like they do in the first example.Dr Neo Lao wrote:Of the options posted, I'd prefer the size of option #3 (medium 2x2 format) with the 'rounder' speech bubbles of option #1.
The 'raggedy' speech bubbles seem a little harder to read for me, but for single sample strips it's a bit harder to tell if everyone will speak that way or just some specific characters. So if your "normal" characters (whatever that definition covers) have easy-to-read speech bubbles and your 'evil' characters (or whatever) have the 'raggedy' speech bubbles, then that would work.
A problem I have with the wordier strips, especially working at the smaller size and needing to use a bigger font, is fitting in all the text without blocking out the images in the panels. (The best example of that problem is seen in this strip - http://towniescomics.com/?date=20050303)Joel Fagin wrote:I agree with Neo, but I had an interesting thought.
The larger comic is better for readability but it's larger than an 800x600 browser window, which isn't so good. My idea was that you could chop it in half (if it'll always be four frames) and then it'll word wrap. That is, if it fits on one line, it'll look normal. If not, it'll stack over two lines like example 3.
I also think you use too many ovals for speech. The last frame in the second comic is a good example but it's all over the place. It breaks up the speech in my mind and makes it sound disjointed. Individual bubbles usually represent a stand alone comment. Two connected simply mean two separate comments.
- Joel Fagin
I'm not following with your comment on how the text breaks up, though. The two comments in that last panel are supposed to be separated. He's adding the line about their survival as almost an afterthought.
Is this what you're talking about with halving the bigger strip?
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Joel Fagin
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Okay, we'll take the last bit of speech in the sample you gave. It's...Townie wrote:I'm not following with your comment on how the text breaks up, though. The two comments in that last panel are supposed to be separated. He's adding the line about their survival as almost an afterthought.
"'Fore they get brave again."
The words are in one speech bubble, but in two ovals which run into each other. Normally, in comics, when two ovals run into each other, each contains a separate sentence or paragraph, such as in the second panel here. Between each oval, there is an implied pause.
And since you use two ovals stacked on top of each other for your strip's last comment, I read it as...
"'Fore they get. Brave again."
I'm not going to check which, but one of the strips has a whole pile of stacked ovals, making for a very long disjointed dialogue in my mind.
Yes and no. What I was suggesting is that you cut the strip into two separate images - panels 1 and 2 in one, and panels 3 and 4 in the other. Then display them next to each other on the webpage.Is this what you're talking about with halving the bigger strip?
Now, if the browser window is wide enough, the two halves will sit next to each other quite happily. If the browser window is not wide enough, the second one will simply drop to the next line and you'll have a two by two grid like the sample in your last post instead.
- Joel Fagin
Now I get what you're saying. But like I said before, the shape of the panels is largely being decided by space. I'd like to use one big oval to enclose the entire text most of the time but that would usually block out huge portions of the panels. (Another reason I'm considering reformatting. With bigger images and bigger panels there's more room for bubbles.)Joel Fagin wrote:Okay, we'll take the last bit of speech in the sample you gave. It's...
"'Fore they get brave again."
The words are in one speech bubble, but in two ovals which run into each other. Normally, in comics, when two ovals run into each other, each contains a separate sentence or paragraph, such as in the second panel here. Between each oval, there is an implied pause.
I get what you're saying but I personally disagree on splitting panels up into different images, for the most part.Yes and no. What I was suggesting is that you cut the strip into two separate images - panels 1 and 2 in one, and panels 3 and 4 in the other. Then display them next to each other on the webpage.
Now, if the browser window is wide enough, the two halves will sit next to each other quite happily. If the browser window is not wide enough, the second one will simply drop to the next line and you'll have a two by two grid like the sample in your last post instead.
- Joel Fagin
I dislike the loss of control you can get when you're not working in a solid page format and I think it causes more headaches than it's worth getting everything to display well over different browsers. If it was longer than 4 panels I'd be more inclined to agree.EDIT: I should mention I also posted this subject on Buzz (http://buzzcomix.net/community/viewtopic.php?t=7410) and BLC (http://www.blanklabelcomics.com/communi ... 605#130605)
I'm trying to get as many different opinions on this as I can
Big Frigging Post.
Um. I have to agree with Joel about the word balloons. The dialog in some of the strips is really hard to follow. Some of that may also be from the "raggedy" balloons, but I think it's primarily the multi-oval thing.
I know how hard it can be to fit the words you want to use into a comic strip. I have this exact problem all the time. But there are ways to fix it.
One is just plain old editing: go over the dialog a few times and see if you can take a word out here or there. Just saying it a little more concisely can sometimes make a big difference in the size of the balloon you need.
Another is editing in a different sort of way: don't always try to fit as many words onto each line as possible. Since you're trying to fill a round shape, making the fewest number of lines doesn't always mean using the space most efficiently. Instead try moving words around-especially the small ones like-so that the dialog is as round as possible.
Here's an example.
See. Even 'though the words in the balloon on the right take up four lines instead of three the balloon is much smaller. I might have even been able to cram it into a smaller balloon if I had tried harder.
Those two examples were both about editing the dialog (either the words themselves or the line breaks) but you can of course also do things with the balloons to give you some extra space.
One is to have the balloons go under the panel borders, instead of over them like you do now. That way the panel crops the balloon and you're free to have it spill off the sides or top. All you'll be covering up is a few tiny empty bits of image in the corners that no one will miss, and your balloons will be dialog will be so so much easier to read. Most newspaper comic strips have their balloons under their panels for this very reason.
Another is changing the shape of your balloons: not just using ovals. I don't know what software you're using or how exactly you make them. I'm guessing you use the oval select tool, but I could be wrong. Try using your graphics program's mask feature (most have one) to fill in the spaces between the ovals.
If you don't want to, or can't, do that for some reason you could also fill them in by making smaller rounder ovals where they meet and round over the gaps.
You won't have perfectly shaped word balloons if you do either of those things, but you don't have perfectly shaped word balloons anyway.
Here's a fairly simple one: reduce the amount of space between the lines of text. There's way way more than you need. Many graphics programs (Photoshop CS and GIMP for example) that let you adjust it simple by pressing a couple buttons. If you can't do that you either have to use the selection tool to move the lines closer (if that sounds bad try doing all this stuff with mechanical pens and matte knives) or finding a font where the lines are closer together naturally. (That's one of the good things about Anime Ace and the like: the lines are very close together.)
Finally there's the simple fact that if you go with a larger format you don't need to use larger text. There's just no point to it-if you can read 12pt text in a small comic panel you can read 12pt text in a large comic panel-and you'll save a ton of space.
But personally I like the first, smaller, horizontal layout best.
And as for the raggedy balloons, try not being so aggressive with the raggediness: don't eat away quite so much in places, instead eat away a smaller amount all the way around.
And the biggest thing I can say about the word balloon problem: remember. Your readers are going to read this much differently than you. You've spent a lot of time thinking over the words, and writing them and rewriting them. When you see them you know how they're supposed to sound. Your audience doesn't.
This is something people have to learn in any artform that uses words. Writers often stuff their manuscripts into drawers for hours or days or weeks until they forget what they wrote and then reread them to see how they sound. You'd be surprised how different it can be.
That's really why Joel and I have such a hard time understanding some of your dialog. You know what kind of rhythm it's supposed to have... we don't, so I we pick up clues from the word balloons, and that throws us off.
I'm sure
"Easy for him to bellow
orders, no work to carry."
Sounds like uneasy mutinous grumbling to you, but when I first read it it sounded more like a beat poem just because I habitually inserted a pause between the ovals:
Easy for him to bellow!
(snap! snap!)
Orders, no work to carry!
(bongo drums)
It actually has a good beat that way but I'm sure that's not what you intended.
Anyway. Hope my lighthearted tone didn't go over the wrong way. Your stuff looks interesting. You've got good use of line and shadow, and I always like seeing things with skeletons in the cast. (Several of my past comics featured skeleton characters.) It'd be a shame for the balloons to get in the way of enjoying it.
And if you take only one piece of advice from me take the piece about moving the line breaks around. It doesn't seem like much but it's made a big difference in how many words I can cram into my strips.
I know how hard it can be to fit the words you want to use into a comic strip. I have this exact problem all the time. But there are ways to fix it.
One is just plain old editing: go over the dialog a few times and see if you can take a word out here or there. Just saying it a little more concisely can sometimes make a big difference in the size of the balloon you need.
Another is editing in a different sort of way: don't always try to fit as many words onto each line as possible. Since you're trying to fill a round shape, making the fewest number of lines doesn't always mean using the space most efficiently. Instead try moving words around-especially the small ones like-so that the dialog is as round as possible.
Here's an example.
See. Even 'though the words in the balloon on the right take up four lines instead of three the balloon is much smaller. I might have even been able to cram it into a smaller balloon if I had tried harder.
Those two examples were both about editing the dialog (either the words themselves or the line breaks) but you can of course also do things with the balloons to give you some extra space.
One is to have the balloons go under the panel borders, instead of over them like you do now. That way the panel crops the balloon and you're free to have it spill off the sides or top. All you'll be covering up is a few tiny empty bits of image in the corners that no one will miss, and your balloons will be dialog will be so so much easier to read. Most newspaper comic strips have their balloons under their panels for this very reason.
Another is changing the shape of your balloons: not just using ovals. I don't know what software you're using or how exactly you make them. I'm guessing you use the oval select tool, but I could be wrong. Try using your graphics program's mask feature (most have one) to fill in the spaces between the ovals.
If you don't want to, or can't, do that for some reason you could also fill them in by making smaller rounder ovals where they meet and round over the gaps.
You won't have perfectly shaped word balloons if you do either of those things, but you don't have perfectly shaped word balloons anyway.
Here's a fairly simple one: reduce the amount of space between the lines of text. There's way way more than you need. Many graphics programs (Photoshop CS and GIMP for example) that let you adjust it simple by pressing a couple buttons. If you can't do that you either have to use the selection tool to move the lines closer (if that sounds bad try doing all this stuff with mechanical pens and matte knives) or finding a font where the lines are closer together naturally. (That's one of the good things about Anime Ace and the like: the lines are very close together.)
Finally there's the simple fact that if you go with a larger format you don't need to use larger text. There's just no point to it-if you can read 12pt text in a small comic panel you can read 12pt text in a large comic panel-and you'll save a ton of space.
But personally I like the first, smaller, horizontal layout best.
And as for the raggedy balloons, try not being so aggressive with the raggediness: don't eat away quite so much in places, instead eat away a smaller amount all the way around.
And the biggest thing I can say about the word balloon problem: remember. Your readers are going to read this much differently than you. You've spent a lot of time thinking over the words, and writing them and rewriting them. When you see them you know how they're supposed to sound. Your audience doesn't.
This is something people have to learn in any artform that uses words. Writers often stuff their manuscripts into drawers for hours or days or weeks until they forget what they wrote and then reread them to see how they sound. You'd be surprised how different it can be.
That's really why Joel and I have such a hard time understanding some of your dialog. You know what kind of rhythm it's supposed to have... we don't, so I we pick up clues from the word balloons, and that throws us off.
I'm sure
"Easy for him to bellow
orders, no work to carry."
Sounds like uneasy mutinous grumbling to you, but when I first read it it sounded more like a beat poem just because I habitually inserted a pause between the ovals:
Easy for him to bellow!
(snap! snap!)
Orders, no work to carry!
(bongo drums)
It actually has a good beat that way but I'm sure that's not what you intended.
Anyway. Hope my lighthearted tone didn't go over the wrong way. Your stuff looks interesting. You've got good use of line and shadow, and I always like seeing things with skeletons in the cast. (Several of my past comics featured skeleton characters.) It'd be a shame for the balloons to get in the way of enjoying it.
And if you take only one piece of advice from me take the piece about moving the line breaks around. It doesn't seem like much but it's made a big difference in how many words I can cram into my strips.
"Yeah, that's the bridge pier (expletive). I thought it was the center. Oh (expletive)." ~ From the transcript of the recording device on board the ship which struck the San Franciso Bay Bridge last year, causing a 50,000 gallon oil spill.
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Joel Fagin
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As an additional possible solution to the bubble problem, when I have a lot of text, I tuck it into a square speech bubble at the top of the panel like so (first panel).
I would certainly poll your readers or perhaps on another comicing board to see how much of a problem this is. It's interfering with the flow as well as breaking the fourth wall. It's also a very low level user interface problem (at the language level) and those really turn people away. I mean, what was Firefox's big draw? Tabbed browsing - the interface. Comics? The more easily absorbed pictures telling half the story - the interface. A hugely popular advance with TVs? The remote - an interface.
It's really not something I would take risks with.
- Joel Fagin
I would certainly poll your readers or perhaps on another comicing board to see how much of a problem this is. It's interfering with the flow as well as breaking the fourth wall. It's also a very low level user interface problem (at the language level) and those really turn people away. I mean, what was Firefox's big draw? Tabbed browsing - the interface. Comics? The more easily absorbed pictures telling half the story - the interface. A hugely popular advance with TVs? The remote - an interface.
It's really not something I would take risks with.
- Joel Fagin
I do very nearly the same thing but I make the bottom line slightly curved so it matches the round balloons. Like the upper balloon in the second panel of this strip.Joel Fagin wrote:As an additional possible solution to the bubble problem, when I have a lot of text, I tuck it into a square speech bubble at the top of the panel like so (first panel).
"Yeah, that's the bridge pier (expletive). I thought it was the center. Oh (expletive)." ~ From the transcript of the recording device on board the ship which struck the San Franciso Bay Bridge last year, causing a 50,000 gallon oil spill.
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Joel Fagin
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That always looks a bit funny to me. Usually the text is centred in the balloon, but with half of the balloon off the page, it's no longer centred and looks off.TRI wrote:I do very nearly the same thing but I make the bottom line slightly curved so it matches the round balloons. Like the upper balloon in the second panel of this strip.
That said, I apparently only notice it when I'm looking - doing my own comic or when someone draws my attention to it. I never noticed it in your comic before. Too busy reading the text.
- Joel Fagin