Persecution (Dec 2)

Canis_lupus · Post by **Canis_lupus** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:42 pm

Lazerus wrote:
If American Muslims want to not get tarred with the 9/11 brush, they really need to be a lot more visible in repudiating terrorism. A few have been -- and then they have been ostracized in their communities. This does not improve the average American's opinion of Muslims in general.
Well, by that logic, if American Christans want to be taken seriously, they have to get a lot more vocal in comdeming abortion clinic bombings right?

Except that, oh, wait, your not going to do that either, because no one is ever willing to criticize a member of their own faith for doing something they honestly think god told them too.

When I see you protesting whacko members if your own faith, I will stop insisting that's a totally unreasonable expectation.

Well most other christians condemn the activities of the Westboro Baptist Church(they protest iraq funerals).

Madmoonie · Post by **Madmoonie** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:48 pm

sapphire wrote:
Madmoonie wrote:Argue what you want but do with respect and a lack of profanity, please.
I concur, and would hope to apologize if my tone was offensive.
But, on the same idea, let me defend myself:
This is not a child's topic. This is not something fascile or sophomoric. We are adults here, or, at least, should be.

Yes, I do realize that are supposed to be adults here and also that many words (like hogwash and humbug) when they in use were....tacky, to say the least. This is NOT 19th-century Victorian London (albeit an intriguing notion). We should not have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending someone. This kind of thing is being covered in Goblin Hollow actually. That being said, as you say we ARE adults. That means that we should have developed our vocabulary and social skills to a level where we do not have to use such speech. I am not perfect (thats a shocker I bet!) but I just feel that its just not needed to spew forth junk. Use a theasaurus, for cryin' out loud!

On a comepletely differant note, I just want to mention that those who believe that we Christains are being over-sensitive sissies (not saying you are wrong or right), you seem to be defending your postion with the same vehemence and 'victim mentality' that we Christains are being accused of. (I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS MAKES YOU WRONG SO DO NOT EVEN GO THERE.) Just an observation, not an opinion to argue over. Ignore me if you want.

Madmoonie · Post by **Madmoonie** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:03 pm

Lazerus wrote:When I see you protesting whacko members if your own faith, I will stop insisting that's a totally unreasonable expectation.

Oh, now I get it! You have come to wear I live, followed me around and seen me praise the work of these bombers and murderers! You obivously have because you seemingly know everything about me, what I believe, and what I view as right in GOD's eyes. You must have seen me hurl insults and abuse at the passers-by at the campus that I attend, making horrible statements about Jews, Catholics, and Homo-sexuals. Did you see me do that? Do you know who I am?

Canis_lupus · Post by **Canis_lupus** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:14 pm

Hes just using the "If you didnt stop it its your fault" excuse. BTW not acknowledging those extremist groups is probably better than protesting them, Any publicity is what they want and they get it in droves from the protests.

Lazerus · Post by **Lazerus** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:07 pm

Madmoonie wrote:
Lazerus wrote:When I see you protesting whacko members if your own faith, I will stop insisting that's a totally unreasonable expectation.
Oh, now I get it! You have come to wear I live, followed me around and seen me praise the work of these bombers and murderers! You obivously have because you seemingly know everything about me, what I believe, and what I view as right in GOD's eyes. You must have seen me hurl insults and abuse at the passers-by at the campus that I attend, making horrible statements about Jews, Catholics, and Homo-sexuals. Did you see me do that? Do you know who I am?

Don't matter. Someone is doing something horrible in the name of a cause you support, and you arn't saying a word against them. That's silent approval same as the muslems are doing.

I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm saying expecting muslems to vocally speak against terrorsts is as unreasonable as expecting you to speak out vocally against abortion clinic bombings. Since you do not do the latter, you cannot expect them to do the former.

Detrius · Post by **Detrius** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:14 pm

Yep, please read the posts before responding to them.

Lazerus · Post by **Lazerus** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:21 pm

detrius wrote:Yep, please read the posts before responding to them.

I did read it. It dosn't matter. I'm saying that he and the muslem people are in the same boat.

If it is reasonable to expect them to vocally speak out against muslem terrorists, then it is reasonable to expect him to vocally speak out against christian terrorists.

Since (from the fact that he did not say otherwise in his previous posts), I assume he does not do that, then him expecting muslems to do that is unreasonable.

Detrius · Post by **Detrius** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:25 pm

D'oh, I was just agreeing that your former (deleted?) post was misinterpreted.

Madmoonie · Post by **Madmoonie** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:09 pm

I realize your point and about what you were saying about the (not sure how to phrase this) vocal dissention against extremist actions of ones (I can scarcely use the word) belief, I guess. You make a good point, no, I haven't picked up a picket sign protesting abortion clinic bombings. I have not preached on the corners about the evils of Christain extremism. But I have not excatly remind silent either. My church does not condone these things and nor do I, even if we believe that homo-sexuality or abortions are wrong. (Please do not start THAT debate up.) I have told my views and talked the subject to many people. But that is somewhat irrevalant. My point was and is, do not generalize me or what I believe. If I am not supposed to believe that all Muslims are evil and that atheists are of the devil, then you have to give ME the benefit of the doubt (and the person you were talking to) that I am not Westboro Baptist, a gay-bashing, racist (for lack of a better word) idiot.

Detrius · Post by **Detrius** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:00 pm

Madmoonie wrote:My point was and is, do not generalize me or what I believe. If I am not supposed to believe that all Muslims are evil and that atheists are of the devil, then you have to give ME the benefit of the doubt (and the person you were talking to) that I am not Westboro Baptist, a gay-bashing, racist (for lack of a better word) idiot.

You do realize that no-one actually accused you of these things but that we were using a dialectic approach to prove our point, yes?

Madmoonie · Post by **Madmoonie** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:09 pm

Lazerus wrote:Don't matter. Someone is doing something horrible in the name of a cause you support, and you arn't saying a word against them. That's silent approval same as the muslems are doing.

So saying, as a Christain, because I do not try my dead level best to stop extremists in 'a cause I support,' is the same as silently supporting them is NOT accusing me of supporting them?

Detrius · Post by **Detrius** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:18 pm

Madmoonie wrote:
Lazerus wrote:Don't matter. Someone is doing something horrible in the name of a cause you support, and you arn't saying a word against them. That's silent approval same as the muslems are doing.
So saying, as a Christain, because I do not try my dead level best to stop extremists in 'a cause I support,' is the same as silently supporting them is NOT accusing me of supporting them?

Read again - he said you're supporting them as much as Muslims support their fanatics.

Madmoonie · Post by **Madmoonie** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:20 pm

detrius wrote:[Read again - he said you're supporting them as much as Muslims support their fanatics.

Oooooookay.......and this makes it better.....how?

Detrius · Post by **Detrius** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:30 pm

Madmoonie wrote:Oooooookay.......and this makes it better.....how?

Because the implication

is Muslim => supports terrorism

is wrong?

Lazerus · Post by **Lazerus** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Madmoonie wrote:I realize your point and about what you were saying about the (not sure how to phrase this) vocal dissention against extremist actions of ones (I can scarcely use the word) belief, I guess. You make a good point, no, I haven't picked up a picket sign protesting abortion clinic bombings. I have not preached on the corners about the evils of Christain extremism. But I have not excatly remind silent either. My church does not condone these things and nor do I, even if we believe that homo-sexuality or abortions are wrong. (Please do not start THAT debate up.) I have told my views and talked the subject to many people. But that is somewhat irrevalant. My point was and is, do not generalize me or what I believe. If I am not supposed to believe that all Muslims are evil and that atheists are of the devil, then you have to give ME the benefit of the doubt (and the person you were talking to) that I am not Westboro Baptist, a gay-bashing, racist (for lack of a better word) idiot.

Very well. I never said otherwise. But I didn't say you had to do that.

I'm sure many muslems do not approve of 9/11, but you never hear about these people because they are silent. If you heard on the media "Muslem extremests burn church, masses outraged." that would be one thing, but you don't, you hear "Muslem extremeists burn church." Peroid, no outcry. So even if they dont' support it, by failing to condem it they are quietly supporting it.

Except, that that's the same thing your doing by being insufficently vocal.

So, while you can say the muslem silence is wrong, bear in mind, that's the pot calling the kettle black. No one wants to badmouth even the most bat-shit insane members of their own faith.

Lazerus · Post by **Lazerus** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:50 pm

Madmoonie wrote:
Lazerus wrote:Don't matter. Someone is doing something horrible in the name of a cause you support, and you arn't saying a word against them. That's silent approval same as the muslems are doing.
So saying, as a Christain, because I do not try my dead level best to stop extremists in 'a cause I support,' is the same as silently supporting them is NOT accusing me of supporting them?

No, you....no. >_<

It's very simple, there are only two possibilies.

If failing to speak out against extremists in your religion is wrong: The you and the muslems are equally guilty, the pot's calling the kettle black.

If failing to speak out against extremeists in your religion is not wrong: Then the muslems didn't do anything wrong.

Either way, your argument dosn't hold water.

Detrius · Post by **Detrius** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:58 pm

Lazerus wrote:It's very simple, there are only two possibilies.

...and you're in favor of which option again?

Lazerus · Post by **Lazerus** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:01 pm

detrius wrote:
Lazerus wrote:It's very simple, there are only two possibilies.
...and you're in favor of which option again?

Failing to speak out against radical elements in your relgion is silently supporting them. Numbers lend legitimacy to a cause. The reason scientologists arn't locked up in insane asyliums is because there's a lot of them.

If a man blows up a building "because god told me too", and all the other priests of his religion condem that action, the man stops being a holy warrior and starts being a skitzophrenic.

If a man blows up a building and the priests do......nothing. That's it. The possibility that god really did tell him to do that is left open. Which is a silent admission that, maybe, god is inclined to do that sort of thing. And since priests support whatever god does, that tacitly supports that violent action.

Canis_lupus · Post by **Canis_lupus** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:10 pm

Lazerus wrote:
Madmoonie wrote:I realize your point and about what you were saying about the (not sure how to phrase this) vocal dissention against extremist actions of ones (I can scarcely use the word) belief, I guess. You make a good point, no, I haven't picked up a picket sign protesting abortion clinic bombings. I have not preached on the corners about the evils of Christain extremism. But I have not excatly remind silent either. My church does not condone these things and nor do I, even if we believe that homo-sexuality or abortions are wrong. (Please do not start THAT debate up.) I have told my views and talked the subject to many people. But that is somewhat irrevalant. My point was and is, do not generalize me or what I believe. If I am not supposed to believe that all Muslims are evil and that atheists are of the devil, then you have to give ME the benefit of the doubt (and the person you were talking to) that I am not Westboro Baptist, a gay-bashing, racist (for lack of a better word) idiot.
Very well. I never said otherwise. But I didn't say you had to do that.

I'm sure many muslems do not approve of 9/11, but you never hear about these people because they are silent. If you heard on the media "Muslem extremests burn church, masses outraged." that would be one thing, but you don't, you hear "Muslem extremeists burn church." Peroid, no outcry. So even if they dont' support it, by failing to condem it they are quietly supporting it.

Except, that that's the same thing your doing by being insufficently vocal.

So, while you can say the muslem silence is wrong, bear in mind, that's the pot calling the kettle black. No one wants to badmouth even the most bat-shit insane members of their own faith.

Well one reason you dont hear about them condeming them is because plainly, its not good news. nobody cares about peace, they just want action and controversy.

Detrius · Post by **Detrius** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:16 pm

Lazerus wrote:Failing to speak out against radical elements in your relgion is silently supporting them. Numbers lend legitimacy to a cause. The reason scientologists arn't locked up in insane asyliums is because there's a lot of them.

If a man blows up a building "because god told me too", and all the other priests of his religion condem that action, the man stops being a holy warrior and starts being a skitzophrenic.

If a man blows up a building and the priests do......nothing. That's it. The possibility that god really did tell him to do that is left open. Which is a silent admission that, maybe, god is inclined to do that sort of thing. And since priests support whatever god does, that tacitly supports that violent action.

That was a clear and insistent "maybe".