Quite a turnout

Bengaley
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Post by Bengaley »

Mutant for Hire wrote:"There is no such thing as an unarmed Raconan" rings about as true as the statement "there was no such thing as an unarmed medieval peasant". The latter statement is technically true. Few peasants didn't have knives, and farmers had all sorts of implements that could be (and often were when they were impressed into service or revolting against their lord) as weapons. And yet somehow the medieval world failed to be an egalitarian place.

The gun was a great societal equalizer mainly because a peasant with only days of training could become good enough that a group of them could do a fairly impressive kill rate on knights who had vastly more expensive equipment and years of training (which was also incredibly expensive). Prior to the gun, the military effectiveness of knights compensated for the greater expense. After the gun, military effectiveness became much more cost effective.

Now if Ralph can conclusively show that an illiterate, uneducated, untrained and underfed Raconan peasant after a few days of training can wipe out a well trained Raconan with years of fancy education and the finest equipment, I'll be willing to believe that lux ability is a great equalizer. Everything he has shown has indicated it is not the case. And he has shown very little reason for me to swallow that a farmer's son like Quentyn is going to be literate, going to be educated, going to have the time and the energy for militia training in his spare time.

Medieval life was vastly different than it was now, with 90+% of the people working hard as farmers and having little time or energy for anything else, even when their ruler wanted them to do so. English kings had a devil of a time getting their adult men to train with the longbow, and the longbow strikes me as a far simpler thing than learning to use lux. Ralph is assuming that even the common folks of what is essentially an early industrial predominantly agrarian society have the wealth, time and educational opportunities of an advanced industrial society.
Lux /=/ Gun. It in very few ways plays the same role as a gun. Or even a weapon. But you missed the point, and badly.

Lux is equivalent to Tesla's wet dream of electricity. It can do shitloads of stuff... and everyone (even Quenty, despite being a black ribboner) has a natural Lux field with which he can do stuff.

Sure, a farmer has to work hard, regardless of his tools and equipment - but a farmer with electricity or lux has it easier. There's things that'll make the hard work easier and faster, to the point where the farmer HAS time for learning to read, HAS time for milita training.

And even if it IS used as a weapon, you're misusing your comparison as well. Certainly, a peasent with 15 minutes of training can take out an armored knight with a gun, and a 'peasent' Rac Coona could take out the equivalent. But a peasent with 15 minutes of training would be dead on the dueling field against someone who practices for hours every week; so would a Rac Coona against someone who trains with Lux the equilvanet difference.

In addition, I think that Ralph wasn't just commenting on a Rac Coona's armament, but rather temperment. What we DO know about their society is that, at least in the villages like Freeman Downs, everyone goes through militia training, and I'm certain that most carry some sort of weapon on them at all times.

That, and it has been said, how much of their society have we seen? Not much... not much at all.

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Post by Bigdude »

There HAVE been human pre-technological cultures in which every adult male was an effective soldier in a pinch. The Scots had one of the oldest traditions of this sort (see also "Hadrian's Wall" and the necessity for same 2,000 years ago!) and the Swiss went there too. That was just in Europe, a lot of more "primitive" cultures did the same across Africa, the south Pacific (Maori!) and the like.

(In contrast the Chinese culture went radically stratified early and got "pwned" by a neighboring culture that didn't, the Mongols. You know why Chinese food to this day is all chopped up before you get it? Because the Mongols restricted every Chinese village to *one* cooking knife. This went on for so long that it became culturally ingrained to where they consider the European/American tradition of table knives "barbaric". If the Japanese weren't on islands the same thing would have happened to them and DID when they ran into the Europeans.)

Even before the gun came along, the Welsh Longbow proved to be a very cost-effective way of taking down Knights and led directly to the Magna Carta, the first time an English king agreed to bow to the rule of law in 1251.

The only problem with the longbow is that it took lots of training. The gun (and Swiss crossbow) solved that problem and for a long time Englishmen had a level of freedom not that far off from Raconnan society, although it didn't last.

Look at where the Racconan are technologically: they've got muskets capable of fairly rapid fire and very reliable ignition, because it's pretty obvious they're using a "Lux lock" firing system. No need to mess with flints or even percussion caps, speeds up front-stuffer reloading significantly. They could have a rate of fire about like a Springfield 45-70 of the late Indian Wars period, not that they helped Custer much :). Ralph hasn't mentioned it but they had to have invented paper cartridges, powder and ball in one package, cram it in and go.

That's not even starting with pure-Lux weapons like Quentin's "SMG".

Politically, they have NOT done any wars of conquest for a very long time if ever. It is offensive-purpose armies that lead to tyrrany, which is why the Romans banned professional armies anywhere near Rome until after Julius Cesar "crossed the Rubicon" and turned the Roman Republic into a dictatorship. Does everybody understand what the Rubicon was? It was a river north of Rome that marked the southernmost legal boundary for a Roman professional army. Take one south of that and you'd damned well best be ready to take over, because any general who went south but failed was going to die.

In contrast, a citizen militia works great when defending the country but stinks on offense.

The total lack of any need for an offensive army has turned the Racconans deep onto the militia track, which leads directly to the society Ralph has laid out even if the Racconan's basic motivations as a species are identical to humans, which could very well be a stretch...

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Post by Squirrelly61104 »

Getting back to may 27ths strip...

If Quentyn isn't wearing any pants... :o


i've had that nightmare too... :ick:

By the way, Quentyn. Don't forget, today is the day of the final exam in the class you forgot to attend all semester! :twisted:
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Post by Maxgoof »

bigdude wrote:There's no question some people don't like Ralph's politics. Right as Nip'n'Tuck did the "border movie" plotline, David Hopkins at Jack yanked his link to N&T that had been there a long time (and how I originally found Ralph's three).

I actually like Jack but I lost a lot of respect for Hopkins.
I lost respect for Hopkins when he used Jack to make a personal attack on Angel Bear.
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Post by Tom Mazanec »

Lux can be a pretty good weapon. We know it can do telekinesis at a distance. What if a Racconnan were to reach inside your brain or heart and SQUEEZE?
About longbowmen, there was a saying "To train a longbowman, start with his father."
And I have never had the "naked" dream. But I HAVE had the "Final exam of class you forgot to take all semester" one, and will probably do so again thanks to this thread.
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Maxgoof
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Post by Maxgoof »

That sounds like some of my dreams.

I always pass, though, because I assume that it is a dream, since I could not possible be in that situation without knowing it a long time before, so, if I take the test, I'll pass.
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Post by Kitwulfen »

I respect Ralph's storytelling abilities. His stories may not be extraordinarily complex, but they are composed of the necessary elements to compel repeat readership.

As for his art, it's consistently mediocre. Not much other than that I can say. Certainly, I don't expect every comic to be a masterpiece; that's unrealistic. I also know exactly how much blood, sweat, and tears goes into every line of every drawing, cause I've been there and done that. The art gets the point across, but otherwise?

As for Ralph himself, I've heard from certain personages that he's an asshat. I can't say one way or another, cause I've never really met the guy. So the jury is still out on that one.
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Post by StrangeWulf13 »

Bit prone to ranting? Yes. Asshat? I'd have to say no.

Y'see, Ralph has a problem... he's a conservative, and he has a following. Many of these people agree with him. To the rabid liberals out there, this is unacceptable. People should be flocking to them.

So they attack him. Send nasty comments to his email, post them on his Live Journal, and sometimes get the balls to put the garbage here. He has to deal with poison some of us can only imagine.

You'll have to excuse him if he gets a bit cranky from dealing with assholes who refuse to see reason. All day.

It makes wonder what will happen should my own comics get underway...

Oh, and if I might comment on Mutant's statements...

It must be the height of arrogance, and foolishness, to declare a work of fiction to be utter crap just because one part of it doesn't match up with human history...

..even though it happens on another world complete with its own seperate solar system...

...focassed on a single member of a fictional society with its own laws and traditions...

...which itself is made up of intelligent, well-armed, sentient, talking raccoons?!?

Honestly. Ya got no legs to stand on, and you're telling us all how to walk.

Next time, check the relevancy of your claims before you state them. Prevents awkward moments like these.
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Post by Acolyte »

kitwulfen wrote:As for his art, it's consistently mediocre. Not much other than that I can say.
Ralph's art compares favorably with most print syndicated comic strips and the vast majority of online strips. I have some trouble understading your expectations here. They seem to be held unreasonably high -- perhaps because you can't say the art here is mediocre otherwise. Compared to what?
As for Ralph himself, I've heard from certain personages that he's an asshat. I can't say one way or another, cause I've never really met the guy. So the jury is still out on that one.
Since you don't know, why did you say anything? Just to troll?

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Post by Acolyte »

bigdude wrote:Even before the gun came along, the Welsh Longbow proved to be a very cost-effective way of taking down Knights and led directly to the Magna Carta, the first time an English king agreed to bow to the rule of law in 1251.
The Welsh longbow wasn't in general use in England at the time. The Magna Carta happened because John was a weak king. Understand that it benefited no one but his barons; the common people had nothing to do with it. But England has never had an absolute monarchy.

What the longbow did was to give England an unexpected advantage over the nominally more powerful French in the Hundred Years War. It's how they won at Crecy and Agincourt.
The only problem with the longbow is that it took lots of training.
That's why it was the law in England for a very long time that every able-bodied male had to practice archery on Sunday after church.
The gun (and Swiss crossbow) solved that problem and for a long time Englishmen had a level of freedom not that far off from Raconnan society, although it didn't last.
The gun requires just as much training as the bow, easily. And especially earlier on. The gun was significantly more expensive than the bow and required more specialized training. Musketeers were a specialty corps, very different from the more militia-like bowmen.

As for the crossbow, it was contemporaneous with the longbow for many years, but it's slower rate of fire made it in practice less effective. It was also more expensive than the bow, making it also a weapon of specialists, and was much heavier and therefore less portable. Most times the crossbow and the longbow met, the longbow prevailed.

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Post by Acolyte »

Mutant for Hire wrote:Now if Ralph can conclusively show that an illiterate, uneducated, untrained and underfed Raconan peasant after a few days of training can wipe out a well trained Raconan with years of fancy education and the finest equipment, I'll be willing to believe that lux ability is a great equalizer. Everything he has shown has indicated it is not the case. And he has shown very little reason for me to swallow that a farmer's son like Quentyn is going to be literate, going to be educated, going to have the time and the energy for militia training in his spare time.
The very first time we meet Quentyn, he's in school reading a book. I think you illustrate the reason for your mistake here:
Medieval life was vastly different than it was now, with 90+% of the people working hard as farmers and having little time or energy for anything else, even when their ruler wanted them to do so.
Ralph is not showing us a medieval society. Racconan society doesn't resemble medieval Europe in the slightest. Quentyn's father is a yeoman farmer and a landowner, something you simply would not have found in a feudal society. For that matter, there's not a trace of feudalism anywhere.

The parallel you wish to draw simply isn't there.

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Post by Anthony Lion »

Acolyte wrote: What the longbow did was to give England an unexpected advantage over the nominally more powerful French in the Hundred Years War. It's how they won at Crecy and Agincourt.
The battle of Agincourt was the topic of a program on Discovery Channel recently, and while the Longbow certainly helped, it was NOT what won the battle.
By then the French knights had armor capable of withstanding those arrows...
What they didn't have was horses with the same level of protection, a sound understanding of a battleplan, and a tendency to ignore anyone below their station.

The french knights ignored the battleplans and charged, without letting their own archers attack, straight at the Englist at a field that narrows a lot(funnels are fun) over a rainsoaked clay field...
As soon as the English arrows knocked down a couple of horses it was chaos.
But they still charged on, even on foot...
They charged in HEAVY armor, through VERY clingy clay mud, against lightly armored archers(armed mostly with clubs, hammers and knives), who because they wore fabric instead of metal on their feet had no problem with the clay's suction...
(The clay in that field gets so clingy that if a knight fell down he would be unable to get up)

In addition, the French knights were out to RANSOM the opposition, and therefore ignored anyone without heraldry(that's the reason for heraldry; to know who your opposition is, and how much he's worth) and wanted to take any English nobles alive.
Unfortunately for them, the archers weren't interested in ransom, only to get back home alive.

And even if the French knights had tried to retreat they would have been unable to, as not only was the clay slowing them down, but the forces pressing on from behind was blocking they way.
(The French HAD a good battle-commander, but he was unfortunately for them, absent that day, and even so, he was lower ranked in the French aristocracy than many of the knights, so they may not have listened to him anyway)

That made for carnage...

The reason the English forces were mostly Archers wasn't because of the effectiveness of their weapon, but because they were CHEAP!
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Kitwulfen
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Post by Kitwulfen »

Acolyte wrote:Since you don't know, why did you say anything? Just to troll?
I mentioned it because I felt it relevant to the conversation at hand. Others had said that there were people who thought Ralph was an asshat. I mentioned I'd run into those people, too, but I didn't know the guy so I couldn't say whether or not I could agree with them. Yup, troll.

Mediocre otherwise compared to a lot of other art that I've seen. Karabiner, Dr. Comet, Ashryn, Arphalia, TRUMP, Ambberfox, Cybercat, Ayame Emaya, Amanda Payne, Finlander, Little Blue Wolf, MBR, Sanny Folkesson, Shadowolf. Just to name a few within the furry fandom itself.
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Post by Trump »

Off Topic, but concerns me nontheless. I am not affiliated with the above mentioned Trump.

As far as my search went for this other Trump, it seemed to lead to broken links, and hentai sites.... Perhaps links should be provided next time a list of artists, that are suppose to be better than RHjr, are given.
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Post by The JAM »

I've always liked Mr. Hayes' artwork, his strips, and his storylines. Don't necessarily agree with everything, but I still find them enjoyable.

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Tom Mazanec
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Post by Tom Mazanec »

I once had that "missing semester" dream in real life :o . There was a special lecture in my astronomy class. I totally forgot about it, because it was not at the "regular" time. When I next showed up at class, everybody (especially the professor) asked where I was. Can you say "oops"?
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Post by RHJunior »

I'm quite aware that there are plenty of artists who are better than me--- and who, in their turn, have others better than them. Such is life.

As to whether I'm an asshat, at least I don't go to other people's forums and make posts about how they're asshats. So make of that what you will.

Racconan society..... really has no parallel with medieval society.

First of all, politically It's a mix of several different democratic/representative governments--- largely the American system, with a smattering of parliamentary england, even a bit of the Nordic <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_%28a ... >Thing,</A> and a few other ideas that (I would like to think) are original.... certain things--- the Rule of Law, equal rights, rights of property, speech, press, religion, assembly, petition of grievance, bearing arms--- coming about due to their religious background and political pressures unique to their history.

Technologically, they're a grab bag as well. If it helps, try and picture a society that has, among other things, advanced electronics technology and medical knowledge... but has, due to various resource handicaps, not yet implimented the steam, stirling, or internal combustion engine.

Still, don't mistake the absence of tractors for a lack of agricultural advances. They may not have motorized plows, but they do have, among other things, advanced plant and animal husbandry, a controlled growing climate, better veterinary medicine, an innate ability to directly analyze crops or livestock for their health, and means to repel pests, predators, and parasites.... even a primitive form of genetic engineering to produce new types of stock.

Industrially, they're a good ways along in developing things like mass production, interchangeable parts, and the assembly line... though again they are limited in that area by resource shortages. Most factories have to be either run entirely by lux or built along the river, in order to make use of millwheels for power. Still, the concept of mass production, distribution (via wagon or luftship) and specialization means for more reliable quality goods.... and the advantage of "economies of scale." (bulk goods at low prices.)

All this-- plus the sheer blind luck of a nearly pollution free technology. (They have SOME pollution.... that seems inescapable with a civilization of any size... but at least they aren't BREATHING it. And they're fastidious enough to tend to the rest.)
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Post by Acolyte »

Anthony Lion wrote:The battle of Agincourt was the topic of a program on Discovery Channel recently, and while the Longbow certainly helped, it was NOT what won the battle.
By then the French knights had armor capable of withstanding those arrows...
What they didn't have was horses with the same level of protection, a sound understanding of a battleplan, and a tendency to ignore anyone below their station.
Indeed. Not so much because they ignored the archers -- how could they? -- but because their own crossbows were assigned a strictly secondary role. But the question is, would the English have won without the longbows? They certainly threw the French line into confusion, and since it was essentially undisciplined from the beginning forming any kind of order after that was impossible. They still came perilously close to winning anyway.

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Post by Tom Mazanec »

even a primitive form of genetic engineering to produce new types of stock
Primitive? What you have shown of biomancy is beyong anything but wild science fiction. It certainly leaves 2006 genetic engineering in the dust.
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Post by Anthony Lion »

Acolyte wrote:But the question is, would the English have won without the longbows? They certainly threw the French line into confusion, and since it was essentially undisciplined from the beginning forming any kind of order after that was impossible. They still came perilously close to winning anyway.
Maybe...

The Bodkin arrowtips the English used were unable to penetrate the French armour,so they couldn't hurt the knights with them.
But on the other hand, the French WERE attacking through a funnel, which meant the effectiveness of their horses and their large number of troops was greatly reduced. With the clay taking away their mobility, and their unwillingness to act on a well-crafted battle-plan, what ultimately defeated the French were themselves.

The French king, of course, wasn't anywhere near the battle, which was just as well as he at the time believed that he was made of glass...
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