Astral wrote:I'll have to be quick, I've got to be at uni in just under half an hour.
I'm not trying to be popus or anything here so please don't take it that way, I just don't have the time at the moment to organise these points into a sutable argument, so am going to quote his questions from the documentory;
... and I'll be your stand-in scientific advisor. I'll give you appropriate references as they come along.
Astral wrote:1: The offical explenation had the plane strikeing the pentigon at a speed of 530mph, that derived from the calculation of how fast it would have had to be going at in order to punch through the three outer rings of the building. However, the offical black box readings, given very soon after the crash, were suposedly showing a speed of around 300mph. Indeed, the plane was not disgned to fly at speeds exceading 400, and simmerler insances of a 757 doing this would have entire componants of the plane ripping off before it had compleated its landing/crash. No compants were found along its tragectory.
Er, according to Boeing, the top speed of a 757 is
609 mph, with a cruising speed of 500 mph. So much for the "no faster than 400" part of the theory. You're a little off, though; the plane was going 350 mph, having scraped a wing on the ground and snapped off a light pole or two in order to fly under the radar. (That's what happens when an inexperienced pilot tries the fancy stuff.)
As for the "black box", the data have not been released as yet. The data are not available on the NTSB's website, and they're the ones who recover the data; therefore, there is no official reading of the "black box" until the National Transportation Safety Board finishes with it. (And that can take a while. Some cases from the '90's were just being wrapped up in 2001.)
Astral wrote:2:A 757 has two Prat-Whitny engins made of steal and titainium alloy, which are nine feet in diamitor and wiegh in at over six tones a peace. Titanium has a melting point of 1688c, jet fule, also known a kerrasene, is a hidrocarbon and can mentain a temp of 1120c for 40 minuets, if the fule is constant. The fule would have burned off emediatly upon impact, thus, it is sciantificaly imposible that 12 tons of steal and titainum were vaporised by Kerrosene.
Right and wrong, Astral. The engines didn't vaporize, no; they were scattered to the four corners of the impact site. A diffuser was found inside the building; a high-pressure rotor was found north of the impact zone.
Here's a site with pictures of engine debris. As the cutaway at the bottom of that page shows, there are a lot of parts in an engine. Plus, the fuel doesn't burn off that fast; we're talking hundreds of gallons. It was what made the fireball, yes, but it kept burning for some time thereafter.
Astral wrote:3: The two engins should have been found reativly intact. Instead there was a single terbojet engin, aproximatly three feet in diamitor found inside the building. After this was show by the AmerricanFreePress, readers wrote in and surgested that it might be a part of the Auxilary power unit, mounted in the tail section of the plane. However, even RolesRoyce, the poeple who would have designed it, did not recognise it as a componant from an APU. Like wise, a Defuser case was found in the colapsed wrechage. If it belonged to a 757 there should have been several triangular bessles, which were no where to be scene on this modle.
"Bessles"? You'll have to explain that one. But since when does any manmade object impact a stone wall at 350 mph and come out "relatively intact"? The item inside the Pentagon was a turbofan from the interior of an RB-211. As for the diffuser case (known as a combustion case), there's a lovely shot
here if you want to see it... accompanied by the Boeing Parts Catalog diagram. I see no triangular vessels, and the casing matches the RB-211 diagram.
Astral wrote:4: If flight 77 was vaporised on impact, it would be the first time in aviation history. In every other example of a plane crashing at full speed into a solid object, huge wing sections, tail sections and dozens of bodies were recovered from the scene.
In most cases, a plane lands belly-first; this allows the fuselage to take the brunt of the impact. In this case, the plane piled into the Pentagon like a bullet; like a bullet, it first crumpled, then shattered as it encountered greater resistance than its components could withstand.
That said, there was plenty of wreckage; while I'm not fond of their other articles (some are horrid),
this page has some pictures of the interior of the Pentagon after the crash.
Now, here's a fascinating bit of info: The Pentagon has five "rings" to its structure, starting from A in the center, and going to E on the outer wall. The landing gear turned up in C; the wheel of the landing gear stopped in D. So the wheel came off before the nose gear pierced the wall.
As for the wings, they crumpled like an aluminum can; they were never designed to strike a rigid structure at high speed.
As Snopes points out, there are two impact marks where the wings would have hit and been destroyed, folding back into the aircraft.
Astral wrote:5: If the plane was vaporised, how could they identifie all of the victims through DNA?
Well, the plane wasn't vaporized, to start with, as I pointed out above. In addition, the human body does not like to burn; it resists to the end, starting from our body oils and going down to the water in our cells. Pieces of hands, toes, heads and other body parts were recovered, some still wearing pieces of flight uniform (much like the pieces of spacesuit that held body parts from Columbia). These were used for DNA identification.
That said, not all remains could be identified; five workers in the Pentagon and one passenger aboard Flight 77 were too badly charred for DNA testing to work.
Astral wrote:6: If 12 tons of engine sudenly smashed into the wall of the pentigon at 530-mph, they would have burried themselves into the wall, making two distinct marks. You only have to look at the photos from that day to realise there is no other damage appart from a single 16ft hole before the roof colapsed. Like wise, if this tragectory is to be belived, the 757 would have had to bounce/scrape acrros the lawn. Indeed, the goverment clamded it did exactly that. But if so, why are there no scars on the lawn? Look at any other 'bellyflop' landing from an aviation disaster and you will see masive scars in the ground, even before any kerrosene was ignighted. And why did the Reals of cabling stacked at the front to the building excape vertualy untouched?
Starting from the 350-mile-per-hour speed (not the 530 you keep citing), the fact is that the impact with the ground was only a few feet before impact; not on the lawn (which stops well short of the walls), and not much left after the airliner disintegrates. And this wasn't a "bellyflop" landing, Astral; this was flying a plane directly into the side of a building.
Astral wrote:7: Why are the windows next to the whole compleatly intact? (although personaly there are documents stating that the windows in that section were only resently reinforced, that could be explaned)
Exactly. Those are blast-resistant windows, designed to take a lot of punishment.
Astral wrote:8: In photos taken before the roof of the outer ring colapsed, the only damage to the outer wall is a single 16ft hole. A 757 is 155ft long, 44ft high, has a 120ft wingspan and weighs almost one hundered tons. Are we suposed to belive that this aircraft could symply vanish into this hole without leaving any large wrechage on the outside? Where is there no damage from where the wings, the engins, or the vertical stabiliser should have struck the building? Offical explenation was that the entire structure folded back under the enourmous pressure, but how are the wings of a plane that big, going that fast, under full thrust suposted to spontainously reverce direction and fold back untill flush with the fusiliage?
It was hardly spontaneous, Astral. The wings are two long, hollow tubes. They're darned strong, to hold the engines and all that fuel; but they're still mostly hollow, and not designed to take transverse shearing. They crumpled like a soda can in the hands of a bodybuilder.
The wings and engines left two nice black marks, shown in the pictures I pointed you to.
As for the vertical stabilizer? Love, that
is aluminum. Steel/titanium alloy shreds at these impact speeds; care to guess what happens to plain old airplane-grade aluminum? Here's a hint: Put a paper airplane on the front of a bottle rocket, shoot the bottle rocket into a piece of plywood, and see what happens to the paper airplane. Now see how much damage the paper airplane did to the plywood.
Astral wrote:Though the why of the conspiricy explained in the documentory fits about as well as a pair of clown pants that had been chewe up in the wash, the questions themeselfs still stand unanswered. Above all these questions, however, one stands proud: In direct line of sight there are no less then six camera's from a Gas station, a hotell, and a department of trasport trafic camera. Given the time span, one of these must have captured at least one frame with an identifiable plane within it. However, with minuets of the disaster, these tapes were confiscated by fedoral employies and the staff instructed not to talk about what they'd seen. To this day those tapes remain hiddern from public veiw, dispite the fact that if the goverment's story is true, they are the one thing that would irrifutably prove, beyond all resonable doubt, that a plane did strike the pentagon. So why the secreacy?
Mostly so the government could have the evidence before a bunch of well-meaning folks like us muddied the waters. The reason the one available security camera didn't get much, though, is simple: Security cameras mounted outside are normally set to expose a frame of footage every once in a period of time. The security cameras outside the Pentagon itself captured a shot just before and just after the impact occurred.
Here's the camera outside the Pentagon. Now, even that doesn't give you much; that camera covers a thirty-foot-wide section of the grounds, which the 350-mph crash covered in 1/17 of a second. So you're not likely to get much that's any better.
<snip>
Does that clear things up?
Yours truly,
The wolfish,
Wanderer
