Marksmanship 101

[BrockthePaine]

Dude....I totally disagree with them all. You should totally go for the strawberry jam with the penguin option.

What're you talking about, dude? Forget that penguin - club those baby seals before they overrun our fortifications!!!

[BrockthePaine]

Doink - I asked around on my gun forum to see if anybody could recommend a good book on guns. Among the responses:
- An NRA beginner's safety manual
- Check http://www.jpfo.org/ for their various articles (their bookstore is at http://www.jpfo.org/books.htm - you'll want to see if interlibrary loan has any).

[Jamestox]

Hi Doink,

I did a bit of searching and came up with a good book on learning rifle shooting. It's the NRA's text for the beginning rifle shooter's course and is available at the NRA Bookstore for $6. You may want to check the library for it or as Brockthepaine suggests, ask the library to check for it on interlibrary loan. I know you didn't really want to actively deal with the NRA, but for all their faults the NRA is an excellent knowledge source for firearm education.

I learned shooting and gun safety in the country from my father and uncles before I was ten years old - I was shooting .22 rifles and pistols and 12-gauge shotguns when I was eleven. Then I had the childhood lessons reinforced by weapons training in the military (Navy, since you asked). The idea that someone grew up in a home devoid of firearms is ...well... foreign to me. I never really thought of learning gun safety as something I took for granted! Still, if you're given the chance, we'd all love to see you get started on the right foot and have fun with shooting.

Right, folks?

JTox

[Doink]

Betcha didn't expect this much help or info from such a diverse group when you originally asked didja?

No, but I can't say I'm surprised, either.

[Zobeid]

Cool. Another new guy. Feel free to let yourself go, but remember: Liberals will be shot (or flamed, whichever sounds more reasonable).

At the risk of drifting off-topic. . . Not all shooters, and not all members of this forum, are conservatives. I personally find conservative philosophy just a *shade* less odious than liberal/socialist philosophy. I think they both represent spent, failed movements.

One of my friends predicts that the Democratic Party will die out, and the Republican party will split into two branches: a "libertarian" branch that will champion small government and civil liberties, and a "fundamentalist" branch that will try to bring back the Spanish Inquisition.

I hope it happens. At least then I'll have an option that I can support without feeling dirty.

(Yes, I know there is already a Libertarian Party, but it seems to be both powerless and dominated by Nut Jobs. By which I mean, even moreso than the Republicans and Democrats, if that's really possible.)

[Doink]

At the risk of drifting off-topic. . . Not all shooters, and not all members of this forum, are conservatives. I personally find conservative philosophy just a *shade* less odious than liberal/socialist philosophy. I think they both represent spent, failed movements.

etc...

THANK YOU!

[JakeWasHere]

Cool. Another new guy. Feel free to let yourself go, but remember: Liberals will be shot (or flamed, whichever sounds more reasonable).

Can't we save the bullets for someone who deserves it more? Such people do exist, you know.

I'm thinking we might pull a "Jack Ruby" on Zac Moussaoui, conceiveably.

[Doink]

Can't we save the bullets for someone who deserves it more? Such people do exist, you know.

That was sarcasm, y'know, about what I perceived as the prevalent attitude on this forum (especially from Ralph).

I'm thinking we might pull a "Jack Ruby" on Zac Moussaoui, conceiveably.

Oh yeah. The only question is how many bullets to use.

[Kitwulfen]

1 Hollowpoint .45 ACP, dipped in pigs blood, straight into the gut.

The only way to deal with extremist Islamics.

[BrockthePaine]

1 Hollowpoint .45 ACP, dipped in pigs blood, straight into the gut.

The only way to deal with extremist Islamics.

.30/06 has much better penetration. They'll probably be dressing him up in body armor, so always remember the old saying "Two to the chest, one to the head, that's when you know the [expletive] is dead!"

[Kitwulfen]

I don't think you quite understand.

The .45 ACP came about in conjunction with the M1911. These were developed at the behest of the US military because the .38 Long Colt just wasn't cutting it in the Phillipines against the Muslim warriors there.

Hollowpoint because they do lots of tissue damage.

To the gut, because it will take quite a while for whomever you shot to die.

With pigs blood, because in the Muslim faith pigs are unclean animals. Pigs blood + bullet == Muslim that's going to hell. No 27 virgins for them. Make sure they know what you've done to your bullets before they die; this gives them a little bit of time to stew the thought of an eternity in hell over before they finally kick the bucket from bleeding out internally into their stomach.

[TMLutas]

I don't think you quite understand.

The .45 ACP came about in conjunction with the M1911. These were developed at the behest of the US military because the .38 Long Colt just wasn't cutting it in the Phillipines against the Muslim warriors there.

Hollowpoint because they do lots of tissue damage.

To the gut, because it will take quite a while for whomever you shot to die.

With pigs blood, because in the Muslim faith pigs are unclean animals. Pigs blood + bullet == Muslim that's going to hell. No 27 virgins for them. Make sure they know what you've done to your bullets before they die; this gives them a little bit of time to stew the thought of an eternity in hell over before they finally kick the bucket from bleeding out internally into their stomach.

While I'm sure that this was emotionally satisfying, you should know that you're advocating a war crime. I'm reasonably sure that attempting to give your opponents cooties so they go to hell is banned by the Geneva Conventions. Besides, this sort of thing causes more trouble than it's worth much of the time. Rumors that the British used pig or cow fat in the manufacture of their cartridges (for the Enfield P/53) were a significant cause of India's sepoy rebellion.

Now the Conventions are not holy writ and the other side has violated them often enough but it's a pretty big step and not to be taken lightly.

[Jamestox]

During WW II, animal fats were collected from U.S. citizens as a contribution to the war effort; these fats contain multiple nitrogen compounds and raw glycerin that can be used in the production of explosives and smokeless powder (nitrocellulose) products. Perhaps not so oddly enough, this type of raw material is still used today for various "energetic materials" because it is so cheap and plentiful (and the technology and infrastructure relatively simple to implement). It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the explosives that terrorists routinely use for self-destruction were - for lack of a better term - "non-halal." It's irony of the highest degree that the means of their "martyrdom" could come from pork fat.... Allah wouldn't be too pleased with that, methinks.

JTox

[BrockthePaine]

I don't think you quite understand.

The .45 ACP came about in conjunction with the M1911. These were developed at the behest of the US military because the .38 Long Colt just wasn't cutting it in the Phillipines against the Muslim warriors there. Hollowpoint because they do lots of tissue damage.

I do quite understand, as I have a 1911 of my own, and I'm thoroughly aware of it's history with the Moros. My current choice of ammo is Federal American Eagle hardball for plinking, and 230grain Golden Sabres for self-defense. I use Hydra-Shok in my 9mm, but that's not my primary.

The reason I said .30-06 to start with in because someone brought up the Jack Ruby idea for Moussaoui. Taking into account that this is obviously a joke, a .45 is not your best option. High-profile criminals are moved wearing body armor; yesterday's tin cans have nothing on today's stuff. The folks over in Iraq have Level III rated to stop a .308 hardball, it can darn well stop a .45 hollowpoint. So, what'd be the most realistic way to pull that off? Sit across the street with a scoped .50 Barrett, that's how.

(This commentary is for entertainment purposes only, and should not be construed as legal or ethical advice without written permission of the surgeon general. Do not take while pregnant, nursing, or intoxicated as side-effects may occur, including vomiting, incarceration, beat-downs by Homie Inmate, and dying of old age in Fort Leavenworth Pen. This warning brought to you by the Office of Public Health and Entertainment.)

With pigs blood, because in the Muslim faith pigs are unclean animals. Pigs blood + bullet == Muslim that's going to hell. No 27 virgins for them. Make sure they know what you've done to your bullets before they die; this gives them a little bit of time to stew the thought of an eternity in hell over before they finally kick the bucket from bleeding out internally into their stomach.

If I have cause to shoot someone, I really don't care what they think when they're dying. They're going to find out where they're going quickly enough. The only thing I want them to know is the acute and violent failure of their victim selection process. "Merry Christmas, Wolf; you thought you were attacking a sheep, but what you found was the sheepdog."

[TMLutas]

During WW II, animal fats were collected from U.S. citizens as a contribution to the war effort; these fats contain multiple nitrogen compounds and raw glycerin that can be used in the production of explosives and smokeless powder (nitrocellulose) products. Perhaps not so oddly enough, this type of raw material is still used today for various "energetic materials" because it is so cheap and plentiful (and the technology and infrastructure relatively simple to implement). It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the explosives that terrorists routinely use for self-destruction were - for lack of a better term - "non-halal." It's irony of the highest degree that the means of their "martyrdom" could come from pork fat.... Allah wouldn't be too pleased with that, methinks.

JTox

Non-halal is in the eye of the mullah. This particular case is a just a tiny little bit clearer. It's an attempt to psychologically use religion and the fear of hell to discourage/punish the other side in a military conflict which is the core of the whole "don't desecrate" prohibition. I'll admit that it's not quite right down the middle because you're desecrating *as* you make the corpse, not after making the corpse but I wouldn't want to risk my chances with a military court on the distinction. After all, all they have to do is find one post mortem "pork" bullet in a body and you've got the full monty of body desecration right there.

[Doink]

Killing the guy is enough for me, thank you, especially if using 'pork bullets' is going to risk an international dispute.

[Zobeid]

The .45 ACP came about in conjunction with the M1911. These were developed at the behest of the US military because the .38 Long Colt just wasn't cutting it in the Phillipines against the Muslim warriors there.

The only thing that worked particularly well on them was 12 gauge buckshot. Still a good choice 100 years later.

Although the Moros were muslims, the main thing to remember is that they were resisting a foreign power that invaded and conquered their country and turned it into a subservient colony. It was the USA's one and only experiment in true European-style imperialism, and it was pretty much a disaster for everyone involved. (But at least it was a small-scale disaster compared with the havoc the Europeans wreaked around the world.)

Hollowpoint because they do lots of tissue damage. To the gut, because it will take quite a while for whomever you shot to die. With pigs blood, because in the Muslim faith pigs are unclean animals. Pigs blood + bullet == Muslim that's going to hell. No 27 virgins for them. Make sure they know what you've done to your bullets before they die; this gives them a little bit of time to stew the thought of an eternity in hell over before they finally kick the bucket from bleeding out internally into their stomach.

Now I really hope Doink doesn't show this thread to the parents. IMO that's the kind of juvenile trash talk that gives shooters a bad name. It reads like something from a Mack Bolan novel, or maybe an article in Soldier of Fortune magazine.

[Kitwulfen]

Sorry, I did not quite understand the "Jack Ruby" reference. If we're talking executing a prisoner who is under guard and wearing vest(s) with plates without getting caught, then yes, a 7.62x51 or .50 BMG rifle would be a better choice.

In regards to war crimes, a few drops of dried blood in the tip of a hollowpoint is gonna be rather difficult to differentiate out of the rest of the guy's blood. Add that to the fact that when he's obviously been killed by bullet, the sort of in-depth autopsy that would be required to discover this sort of thing would be unlikely. Doesn't mean it's not a war crime (is it still a war crime if I'm just a citizen and not a soldier?).

Brock, you hang out on the Glock forum much? I think that's where the Sheep, Sheepdog, and Wolf sort of thing popped up in the gun community. Personally, that little fable/allegory makes me just a bit pissed off. I'm tired of the continued villification of the wolf. A better one would have been "Sheep, Sheepdog, and Coyote."

[Kitwulfen]

Hollowpoint because they do lots of tissue damage. To the gut, because it will take quite a while for whomever you shot to die. With pigs blood, because in the Muslim faith pigs are unclean animals. Pigs blood + bullet == Muslim that's going to hell. No 27 virgins for them. Make sure they know what you've done to your bullets before they die; this gives them a little bit of time to stew the thought of an eternity in hell over before they finally kick the bucket from bleeding out internally into their stomach.

Now I really hope Doink doesn't show this thread to the parents. IMO that's the kind of juvenile trash talk that gives shooters a bad name. It reads like something from a Mack Bolan novel, or maybe an article in Soldier of Fortune magazine.

Sorry, but I'm just a little bitter about the age we live in, and I'm not the sort of person who likes to play politically correct or do things by halves.

[BrockthePaine]

Brock, you hang out on the Glock forum much? I think that's where the Sheep, Sheepdog, and Wolf sort of thing popped up in the gun community. Personally, that little fable/allegory makes me just a bit pissed off. I'm tired of the continued villification of the wolf. A better one would have been "Sheep, Sheepdog, and Coyote."

Actually, the Sheep, Sheepdog and Wolf allegory comes from (to the best of my knowledge) an article by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. And no, I don't hang out at the Glock forum... Glocks are way too newfangled contraptions for me. I'm old school - 1911s and revolvers for my sidearms. Basically, if the furniture is wood, I like it; if it's plastic, heck no. That mostly applies to my dislike of M16s. What can I say? I love the old guns.