IMPORTANT CHANGES MAY BE IN THE WORKS

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 11:38 am

Actually, I don't have a problem with paying for online content. Artists put a lot of work into their comics/writing/other and I think they deserve something, especially if it helps keep them going. They're giving me something every day and, to me, it's only fair they get something in return.Ok, so I'm probably in the minority. I guess I'm just not as selfish as some. Ok, I know some surfers are broke, and they just may not be able to pay for it, but I think the major part of the reason people won't pay is because they are selfish. They take, take, take without giving. Or they are just too lazy (root cause: selfishness) to do it.Anyway, back to happy thoughts. I'd be willing to pay that price, especially since there will be several comics at the hub. If it seems good to you, Jim, go for it!

CatzClawz · Post by **CatzClawz** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 12:13 pm

Howdy Jim,might remember me from the PvP forums, figured I'd post my views.This whole thing reminds me of a comic that Scott mcloud did once about micropayments for comics (you might recall Penny-arcade's rebuttal?). I think I have to side with Penny arcade, when it comes down to it: People dont want to pay for online comics...micropayment, heck payments of ANY kind, just wouldn't work. I love the comic but if I have to pay to see it, I'll go elsewhere. Now if you were to PUBLISH the comic in book format I'd buy that! I guess it comes down to seeing where my cash is being spent...I want to see it spent on something tangable.For those wondering what I was talking about:Scott Mccloud's comic: <A HREF="http://www.thecomicreader.com/html/icst ... cst-6.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.thecomicreader.com/html/icst ... -6.html</A> Penny-Arcade's rebutal: <A HREF="http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?d ... 6-22&res=l" TARGET=_blank>http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?d ... 2&res=l</A>

Glasshawk · Post by **Glasshawk** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 12:41 pm

I have been a lurker fan of MM for quite some time now and I oppose the move.Banner ads don't bother me. I can ignore them. But i cannot be on the net every day you update, and thus i'd miss crucial parts of the story, in all likelyhood. And i do not have a credit card or other means to pay to see it... And i don't doubt there are many others in the same plight as I.Please consider the less able-accessing fans. From one artist to another, please.

Krank · Post by **Krank** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:35 am

Hi, it's me, one of the cheapskates.I just decided that I will never, ever, enter Indigo's webcomic website. I don't like people who act like Indigo did. I don't fancy being called a cheapskate either.Like someone said: These cheapskates are your readers. We ARE. 
And Indigo: I am opposed to the idea that EVERYTHING should cost money. I like the idea of free things. I doubt Jim would have this kind of crowd should he charge people.Anyways, I would have paid if I could. Soon, I will be without Internet access. I don'

PrinceofAmber · Post by **PrinceofAmber** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:10 am

Mr. Zubkavich...Jim...I don't post very often - my user name expired, in fact - but this comic has enough meaning for me that I felt I HAD to post.First off, I must say I really admire your comic. I read nearly two dozen web comics a day, and The Makeshift Miracle is very near the top of my list of favorites. The artwork is beautiful, and the story has kept me captivated from day one. You have a something very unique in today's world of web comics; a good one.Now, while you are contemplating this move, let me ask you something: what is your fan base? You found 12 links on Google and you were ecstatic. Just how many people read your comic, though? A few hundred? A few thousand? No offense, but I imagine the number is fairly small; you have just started out, after all.What I'm trying to get at is this: do you have the fan base to make the move you're contemplating? You will lose readers, especially as time goes on (once you miss one update, it's easy to miss another...and a couple more...and then a month...and then you decide it isn't worth it anymore). You're counting on enough traffic to pay the bills, but is that realistic at this point in the life of your comic?My suggestion is that you wait. Give your comic some time to grow and mature. Allow your fan base to become solid and multiply. Six months - a year at most - and you will have a better idea where your comic is headed. Who's to say you won't make enough money on donations? After a few more months of your comic, believe me...there will be people waiting for a hard copy of your comics. Why, I'd even like one right now.If that hasn't convinced you, try asking some of the "old pros" of the industry, like Pete Abrams of Sluggy Freelance. I'm sure he has plenty of good advice that you can take advantage of.Corwin, Prince of Amber

Templar · Post by **Templar** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:50 am

Figured I'd weigh in again. Part of the problem you're going to have, Jim, is that meme of the Internet being "free." I have to admit that I've only recently decided to start dropping a few bucks in the can for webcomics. Remember, until recently, no one really paid for the comics; they came "free" with your morning paper, as it were. Also, many of your fans are likely to be younger, and consider even a few bucks to be an imposition on them.I can see one point; in a manner of speaking, paying for the archives is almost like "renting" your comics. Paying to view the MM archives is not the same as *owning* a Calvin & Hobbes book, if you take my meaning.

Ke · Post by Ke » Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:06 am

Okay, this was important enough for me to overcome my aversion to posting.I've read that something similar for writers (The Vines, I believe) had been tried, and there were problems with contributors getting paid, owing to costs of running the site and so forth. How realistic are these people's projections? If you're going to accept their business model as valid, you will have to take a crash course in business and marketing - if you have already, forgive my assumption - to make sure you don't get screwed. I'm not saying that these people have less than good intentions, but this will no longer be just a hobby, as wiser heads than I have said - it will be a business venture and you will have to learn the rules of the game to protect your interests. I know that sounds a bit harsh, but it's true.That being said, if I'm going to have to pay to see the comic, (as others have also said), I'd prefer paying for your comic, and ONLY your comic. This has nothing to do with being cheap. It has to do with economics in my case. I don't live in North America, and I have limited internet access, so if I'm going to save the equivalent of $20 per month to pay for viewing The Makeshift Miracle, I prefer that ALL the money goes to the product (and the talent) I'm supporting.

7-Trimethylxanthine · Post by **7-Trimethylxanthine** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:10 am

The only thing I don't like is that if I forget to look at the comic or am away or something, I'm kinda stuck... But do what floats your boat.

Zubkavich · Post by **Zubkavich** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PrinceofAmber:
You found 12 links on Google and you were ecstatic.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Corwin,Okay, sorry if that didn't come out right. That was 12 "pages" of links. Each page of Googles search query has 10 links. That's 120 pages that have linked back to me in one way or another. That's why I was so amazed! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Just how many people read your comic, though? A few hundred? A few thousand? No offense, but I imagine the number is fairly small; you have just started out, after all.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, this isn't a bragging thing... I'll just be factual:Yesterday the site logged 1100 "unique" viewers. Considering quite a few people only check the site once a week and others share IP addresses at work and what-not, Makeshift's viewership is probably in excess of 2500 people.I've been very lucky to have some strong word of mouth about the site. Trust me, I'm as shocked as anyone about having that size of audience so soon.It's not like I sit around cackling, thinking about how I'm going to strangle money out of my viewers. The fact that this has grown so much so quickly is amazing to me, and I'm thankful to everyone who's reading and telling others about the site.------------------
Jim Zubkavich
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The Makeshift Miracle
http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com
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Sstair · Post by **Sstair** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 1:31 am

Regardless of any other pros and cons of this idea, I think the problem previously mentioned is a deal breaker. If a person has to pay to see previous installments, and because this is a serial, I think by doing this you'll effectively shut the doors to any new audience. You will get few if any new viewers, because one panel isn't going to be enough to get them to fork over cash.I do think the idea of charging people to view the archive would work for something that wasn't serial.

Krank · Post by **Krank** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 4:15 am

Someone (i have no longer any recollection of who it was) made a nice point a few posts away: Paying montly is more like 'renting' a comic book than purchasing one. I'd be MORE than happy to pay hard cash for a printed version of the comic.Just wanted to say that I agree wholeheartedly.

Mel · Post by **Mel** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:00 am

*L* You got that big an audience that fast because you are DAMN GOOD. I found you through the keenspace top 99 or whatever it was and i instantly emailed a dozen friends asking them to explain why you were still stuck on Keen with that kind of talent.

OK, now that my fangirl moment is out of the way, thanks for the welcome, and the answer.

I already stated my opinion, but I want to agree with the person up above who stated that people just don't pay for content. I don't, the minute a site starts charging, however modest, I usually leave. *thinks* Would it expend to comics, i don't know yet. Would depend on everythign from how much money I had to how EASY the payment process is. As much as I love this comic, if this is the only one on that site I seriously think i'd just never get around to paying and the first time i fall behind i'd just fade away for good. *shrugs*Oh! another thing that popped into my mind - I noticed some people copying/saving the archives. Will there be a way to prevent people from doing this on the paysite and giving them to friends for free? (besides copywrite laws which seem to concern SO few ppl ont he net)?

Addiction King · Post by **Addiction King** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:20 am

Greetings. While I understand the 'urge' to make a few dollars in compensation for you time (which you are certainly entitled too, this is worth the time/money), I feel you maybe putting the cart before the horse. Like many of your other readers, I read a few webcomics a day. I have a list of those I 'never miss' and those I view 'now and then'. MM is in the never miss list. Partly because it is different, full color and the story is IMHO just NOW getting good. The rest was set-up. We finally have a perceived 'enemy' for the main characters and a small but solid cast.
However, if this was to go pay right now, I would not pay for it. Period. Not because I'm cheap, just because I have no idea whether or not this story will go on long enough to have me feel like I got my money's worth. Not to mention like many others I object to 'blindly support the whole damn venture' when all I want is to see MM. Did you ever read 'NoRTH'? While I have immense respect for their creative talent, they crumbled after 23 pages. They are just now relaunching having learned from their mistakes (I hope).. I support Megatokyo, but buying stuff: t-shirts etc. Megatokyo (when they make it available), Avalon, and Penny-Arcade have book orders from me. Because I feel it's worth the money to support these strips I love. (Bruno is on my buy list as well.)The CHIEF mistake I can see is having gotten a new readerbase quickly, artists start worrying about stuff outside the comic itself. Scott Kurtz of PVP is able to 'make a living' because he has provided almost without fail, a new strip everyday for a couple years now. So where he may take crap from everyone for personality, one thing you can be fairly confident in is HIS ability to put up the 'content' consistently, which now extends to his comics. (I don't buy them personally since I don't collect comics, unless they are 'bound/graphic novels'.. ie, i don't want to board and bag them)So I guess Jim can put me in the slightly negative viewpoint. I can not see the point in saving the archives, if I can one day 'purchase' them in print. While I might pull down an MP3 and then go buy the CD, It's because i then have something physical for my money. Online subscription is just not going to happen yet for the VAST majority of online content. Look around and note the concern of the readers who have posted regarding other ventures like this, then decide. Best Wishes, Sorry about the novel.Addiction King

Playfulkitten · Post by **Playfulkitten** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:48 am

Just my $0.02 I guess. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
I also would pay to support your comic, however I also have a problem with the model. I have four comics I read: UserFriendly, PvPOnline, yours, and Bruno (thanks for link for that, by the way!). I think I'm correct in assuming yours is the only one of these who might join this hub, yes? Therefore, if I subscribed, I'd only do it to read yours, but then all the money I'd pay wouldn't go to your comic.(Another hitch is that you have a lot of readers who have the money, but not a credit card. Some of these are too young to have one; some refuse to have one because of the pit they can get you stuck in if you're not careful. There would have to be another way to pay -- something like money orders or checks -- or you'd lose those readers who don't have that credit card and who can't check for updates consistently. This is something you'd have to consider whether you join this hub, or decide to strike out on your own.)

Thornae · Post by **Thornae** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 8:46 am

Hi Jim - well done, you've managed to get me to register, just add my thoughts here...One of the webcomics I read regularly is <a href="http://www.goats.com">Goats</a>. Some months ago, Jon (the author) toyed with the idea of a "subscribers only" section of his site - extra content, and the like. After much discussion with readers, he decided against it, and had a PayPal donation incentive instead - for each month that the PP donations exceeded $750, he'd put up a colour double Sunday strip. This worked fine for a while, but last month didn't make it (September also fell short, but considering the circumstances, he put a strip up anyway).Part of the point here is that the online economic climate is still pretty gloomy, and any profits from this are not likely to be much greater than you may make from PayPal. Another part of the point is that gratuitious begging is effective - if you, say, once a month, put a great big "PLEAAAAASE DONATE" link at the top of the site, I doubt you'd piss off any but the most ungrateful of people, and you might remind a few folk to donate who otherwise wouldn't. A third part of the point is you should have a chat with Jon (if you're lucky, he'll link to you =). Goats also recently did a printed book (which I got for Christmas! Yay!!) - ask them about the economics of that, too...
Now for my own personal perspective on this: First, I'm an Aussie too, and like the other bloke (or sheila) said, we're at a distinct monetary disadvantage here.Second, I'm a poor student. One day, when I'm out in the real world earning real money, I intend to register Opera, donate yearly to the FSF, and put a couple of bucks each month into the tipjars of those webcomics I think are worth it (TMM being somewhere in the top five of that list). Until then, I'll get by with what I can get in my usual browsing. Personally, I don't think this move would benefit TMM. However, if you do decide to go with it, consider either offering for free the last month (a la Dilbert et al), andor offering the first chapter for the latecomers. Final notes: the post about the Salon exclusive service is worth considering - how well do you think you'll compare?

Look at how many people have said they're saving the archive locally - check your logs, how much has archive access increased since posting this? What does this say?Please, do some careful research before deciding either way. Check with the admins at KeenSpot, ask what percentage of readers are premium, etc...Finally, I think you do deserve something for TMM. But remember that Bill Waterson wasn't getting any more money from the papers than the guy who draws Fred Bassett.Good luck with it, whatever you decide. I'll keep reading as long as I can.
[This message has been edited by Thornae (edited 02-06-2002).]

Watcher · Post by **Watcher** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 9:04 am

Well I never intended to post on these forums but this is too important not to voice my opinion..sorry for spelling mistakes,English is not my native languige.I think I am leaning on the sceptics side...the truth is that I doubt I would pay for MM and I think most people won't.I won't try to analyse why,most points have already been mentioned and analysed in the previous posts.Thing is,being free is the whole point of webcomics ,the readers current idiology is not sutable for such a move...notice how even the most dedicated fans are quite sceptical and make no mistake,all those that hang out on the forums ARE the hardcore fans.Also,the bulk of the readers are the silent majority,the casual readers...and I really doubt that they will be willing to pay for a webcomic,no matter how good.While I do think you truly deserve something better,and so do the fans that support this wonderful work that MM truly is,you must keep in mind that these forums and the emails you receve probably dont represent the majority of the users,which are mostly the casual croud, us cheapskates perhaps,as krank said.Are you really sure that you will be left with a fanbase so big that can it support your webcomic?
Are you sure that it will please you to turn this comic from hobby to work as someone said,and therefore cutting off most of your fans?IF you DO try this out,then make sure that you really try your best to make the payment process as easy as possible,even if it costs a bit more...as strange as it sounds,one of the biggests turnoffs about online paying is that it is simply a hassle...Best of luck whatever you decide,and sorry if I sound a little too harsh,this comic is way too good and deserves to go on,and I am afraid that this change may put it at risk...but above all do what you feel is right,after all there is no point in doing art if you aren't enjoying it.

Lyingbastard · Post by **Lyingbastard** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 9:34 am

Mr. Zubkavich,
I've followed Makeshift Miracle since basically the first strip, having found a link through your fan art sent to Howard Tayler of Schlock Mercenary. I also read Sluggy Freelance, Kevin and Kell, User Friendly, DragonBoy, RPG World, Help Desk, PVP, and occasionally Bruno the Bandit and Sinfest. The only thing I can see that is common to all of these is the level of quality, both in terms of humor, and usually art. The Makeshift Miracle is by far the most beautiful of all these works. It would be quite just for you to want some compensation for your work. However, the business model you've been shown in highly suspect and seems guaranteed only to rip off just about everyone involved. Pete Abrams, Bill Holbrook, J.D. Frazier, and Scott Kurtz all do this professionally. (I am not sure about Howard Tayler, though I'd be surprised if he wasn't.) All four of these produce their work in print (all but Kurtz through Plan 9 Publishing) and have their archives for free. Now, just because it works for some people doesn't mean it will work for you, but it may be well worth looking into how your fellow artists manage to earn their keep. I know Scott Kurtz is not well thought of by a lot of web-comics artists and readers because he has his own strong opinions and expresses them with his own comic. But he also is successful enough to have a series of merchandise and print version of his comic, and makes enough to let his art be his means of income - not an easy task. One might wonder if some of the grumblings about him might stem from envy. But that aside, it might be very instructive to read his rants "Could success soon kill your webcomic" - all three parts. Look, if you do join this Hub, I hope you do make a lot of money. I'll probably get a PayPal account myself to subscribe. But the truth is with a shaky, improbably business model like the one presented to you, and the exceedingly likely withering of the current fanbase (case in point - Pete Abrams' Sluggy Freelance comes in a pay-version that contains no banners and the regular free version; most people deal with the ads) when people have to start paying to view online, is going to get you screwed on both sides: You won't make much money because any money you make gets put in a pot and a share is given to you based on someone else's accounting, and you might not have enough dedicated readership to be worth trying to relaunch a free version. The bottom line is, you might want to ask some of the guys who ARE making money off their strips how they're doing it, cause this deal you've been offered looks more and more like the bad end of a poo-stick.-LB-

Zubkavich · Post by **Zubkavich** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:57 am

Okay, now that more information is out and I can talk more freely about Modern Tales...Answering many questions...Worthiness of the content at Modern Tales:
Look at this list of creators involved: <A HREF="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/Forum49 ... 00085.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.keenspace.com/forums/Forum49 ... 85.html</A> If you can't find one or two other artists on there that don't grab you on some level, I'd be surprised. It's a great variety of published talent and up and coming talent. Indy-flavoured, manga-flavoured or serial story based like mine.
Piracy of the content:
Of course it's possible to download the archives, piracy will ALWAYS be possible if you're willing to do it.Modern Tales wants people to subscribe with the idea that they're supporting the artists. This has more in common with Public Television... watch for free when the content is there, but benefit the creators when you join and agin exclusive material.
Jim getting screwed out of money:
If I was part of Modern Tales and you subscribed, you'll be asked which comic "brought you in". If you say that it's Makeshift, I benefit from it. When you view my content, I benefit (I benefit when subscribers who came from the other people view my content as well). If I grab and keep people's attention, I'll benefit.
On Not Grabbing New Readers:
I've been offered a new deal where I can show the first 15 pages of Makeshift Chapter 1 for free, always. That way people get Iris' crash, background on Colby and they get to the kitchen. If people aren't intrigued by then... Makeshift probably isn't their thing.
Lack of Access:
The newest page would be right here at makeshiftmiracle.com for free. Until a new page comes out, that page is free for all to see. If you're here 3 times a week (just make sure you get here before a new page comes out), you can read it the same as always for free. Download the pages if you must, but know that subscribing to Modern Tales supports me. If you'd prefer to donate directly to me through Paypal, feel free to.
On a print version of Makeshift:
I'd love to have one made up for the San Diego Comic Con this year. Any I don't sell there would be sold here at the site. I could probably take "pre-orders" as well, ensuring people that they get theirs. Joining Modern Tales doesn't impede any print plans in the slightest.
People Won't Pay For Free Content:
That may be very true, but someone has to change the non-existant business model of web comics. Art is either worth something to a person or it's not. If the quality is there, I think it is...
Final Decisions:
I'm discussing everyone's points here with Modern Tales. I'll leave no stone unturned and won't join until I'm convinced that it's the right choice. If I've missed any concerns, let me know and I'll address them as best I can.
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Jim Zubkavich
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The Makeshift Miracle
http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com
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Playfulkitten · Post by **Playfulkitten** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 6:29 am

One question not covered in your post: is there going to be a way for people to pay for a subscription who don't have a credit card? As has been mentioned previously, there are quite a few people who don't have one for one reason or another, and probably won't or can't get one just to subscribe to MM.As soon as they slip behind in not being able to check the current daily comic, unless they don't mind missing some part of the story, you'll definitely lose them, because they can't pay for a subscription to get those missed panels. But, if there's a P.O. Box set up for people to mail checks/money orders, then more people might be willing and able to subscribe. (This affects everyone who would be going into this deal, by the way.)

Zubkavich · Post by **Zubkavich** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 6:57 am

I knew I'd forgotten something... thanks.Non Credit Card Subscription:
There will be an address to send cheques to for people who don't have a credit card. They've realized that Paypal isn't an option for everyone, and they'll have alternate payment options at the site's launch.If you're interested in that option, you can contact Joey Manley at: notifyme@moderntales.com for more information.------------------
Jim Zubkavich
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The Makeshift Miracle
http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com
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