Women In Comics: Help me out here.

[That guy]

Okay, so I'm preparing a paper for a sociology class. The focus is STEREOTYPES of WOMEN and the EFFECTS of GLOBALIZATION

My focus: Women Portrayed in Comic Books And, in particular, how that portrayal has evolved over time. When I get home from work I'll post some examples of what I'm talking about... but, What I would LOVE to get from all of you is:

1) Your input AS artists, especially female artists or artists with female characters
2) Your thoughts on how women are portrayed in popular print Comic Books TODAY
3) Your thoughts on how women USED to be portrayed in print Comic Books.
4) Any especially of extreme examples of grossly exagerated or objectified women (the bulk of Rob Liefield's work).
5) Especially good examples of women as strong, positive characters in comics, (fully developed in more ways than cup size)
6) Also thoughts on the ways women and men are portrayed differently, both in the clothes they wear, body types, characterization, role in plot, etc.
7) And, lastly but very important: how different countries have influenced each other and how that has come out in comic books. Culture/style exchange. Social differences in what's moral/ethical from country to country. Differences in accepted gender roles, etc.

I would really appreciate your input and a *prays* serious and on-topic discussion, from which I hope to be able to quote. If I DO use any of your quotes specifically, I'll PM you to ask for permisson first.

Aaaannnd... GO!

[Cat42]

<<<+++CONTAINS SPOILERS+++>>>

Well, The comics I've been reading lately (only a few issues of some mind you) that I feel apply here would be Demo by Brian Wood and Becky Cloonan, Harliquin (The first issue) and Ai Yori Aoshi.

Demo's female characters tend to be strong, but flawed, the lead ones at least. One issue there is a girl who is extremely dependent on her boyfriend for help, and you can see her as weak, but you need to keep in mind that what she is doing that requires her to seek his help, takes alot of inner strength to want to do (going off the meds that suppress her telekinetic abilities). Her dependency on him is not sexist in my mind at all because of this. She is dependent on him for only a little while, and is doing so because she knows that he truly loves her, so she can trust him. The art doesn't contain females with disturbingly large bust sizes, or in super-hero skintight spandex. The character designs reflect reality in both what the people are shaped like, and what they would wear.

Harliquin (who is my favorite Batman character) does unfortunately suffer from a large bust, or at least larger than her cartoon version (keep in mind, she was a cartoon first). Her character is extremely flawed, and co-dependent with the Joker, she takes beatings from him, suffers murder attempts, and yet still comes back for more. However, she is an extremely strong willed character (and strong physically thanks to Poison Ivy in the first issue) to the point where she almost killed both Batman and the Joker in the first issue. The only reason she didn't was her afformentioned co-dependency with the Joker. He apologized to her, and she was immediately swept off of her feet again. While her design is sexist I feel her character is not, just that she is EXTREMELY flawed. I never felt that they glorified the way she took so much abuse from the Joker.

Ai Yori Aoshi is sexist. It's sexist in an old fashioned kind of way though. Well, sort of. Abuse towards women is never glorified or even shown (at least not up to volume 4) but the female characters are primarily submissive. There is a lot of fan service in the book, and alot of sexual humor (primarily involving acidental incriminating positions) but the romantic aspect of it isn't really sexualized much.

These following comments might get me crucified by some people who wish to interpret it incorrectly but:
I do not feel that it is wrong to glorify the female homemaker concept HOWEVER I do believe it is wrong to have it FORCED on everyone. I do NOT believe that women are only good for house work and "making babies", and I abhor that view BUT I feel it is wrong to tell a girl who's CHOICE is that she wants to be a homemaker that she is morally obligated to not be one. Some people do choose to be submissive. In my last relationship, I was submissive by my choice. (submissive here is used in a non-sexual sense). Aoi in the book is extremely submissive be cause she chooses to be. She is a home maker because she wants to be, not because it was forced on her, but because it is her choice. The character of Mayu is dominant (read spoiled brat) and so is Tina (not a spoiled brat, and dominant in more of an average person sort of way).

Kaoru, the betrothed to the submissive Aoi, loves her, and has genuine compassion for her. He doesn't take advantage of her. Their relationship is sort of sexist, but not in a way that is derogatory.

To those who may feel that I have something horrible here, please keep in mind that I believe in equality for the sexes. I think that forced submission is wrong. But, forced anything is wrong.

Meh, my argument is kinda disintegrating now, I think. I just hope I didn't stick my foot in my mouth so far that I choke.

[Joel Fagin]

1) Your input AS artists, especially female artists or artists with female characters

The latter, in my case. Most of my main characters end up being female for some reason.

I treat females simply as characters. I don't discriminate either negativly (fanservice) or positively (making sure I have a strong female lead just for the karma points). I have never sat down and thought "How would a female would react?" when writing.

Of course, in all fairness, it helps that I don't deal with mundane situations and average people. An argument between a married couple would have a great deal more gender-specific actions and reactions in it than how the main characters of a story react when aliens start popping out of dimensional rifts, for example.

2) Your thoughts on how women are portrayed in popular print Comic Books TODAY

Swimsuit models.

In swimsuits.

They are, I'll allow, more intelligent than they used to be but the males in comic books are more intelligent than they used to be too. The women are also more independant and stronger characters but only if they dress up in swimsuits.

3) Your thoughts on how women USED to be portrayed in print Comic Books.

Weak, defenseless, stupid, beautiful and in swimsuits.

How they are portrayed is largely irrelevant. 'Why' they are portrayed that way is the important bit. It's a nice bonus that they're stronger and more independant nowdays but, past or present, they exist solely to serve the fantasies of the teenage male. They are not role models for women, they're not characters developed to strengthen the story and they're not there to add richness and realism to the setting. It's not laudable that they've introduced stronger women, it's a coincidence courtesy of the comic demographic, who have simply changed what they want in their unattainable fantasy women.

4) Any especially of extreme examples of grossly exagerated or objectified women (the bulk of Rob Liefield's work).

Don't pay them any attention, I'm afraid.

5) Especially good examples of women as strong, positive characters in comics, (fully developed in more ways than cup size)

As I said... Even if there are some, it's still just the serve the fantasies of the teenage male.

And, unfortunatly, I don't read many mainstream comics. However, Usagi Yojimbo has a large number of interesting, fully developed and fully clothed female characters. I'll use...

Chizu. Ascended to leadership of the Neko Nija clan after the death of her brother. She is skilled, honourable (although with a different system of honour than the samurai) and intelligent. That's all cliche, but required by the character.

She believes in the ninja credo, that a nija's duty lies in death. Ninja will sacrifice themselves readily - although not easily - for the good of their clan and for whatever purpose they currently have.

Yet, Chizu's not ruthless. She grieves for every ally's death, even the faceless cannon fodder of her clan. She is ruled by the ninja system of honour but her emotions have a strength as well.

She clashes with Usagi over honour systems since he often puts loyalty to his friends above such greater concerns. Indeed, although she cares for him, she has tried to kill him often when they clash over something important. Both will avoid it when they can but if something is important enough, neither tends to back down.

6) Also thoughts on the ways women and men are portrayed differently, both in the clothes they wear, body types, characterization, role in plot, etc.

Nowdays, they're actually pretty close in the way they're portrayed, with the exception of the less than practical clothes of the female. Both have idealised body types, they're always good looking, strong, intelligent and so on. It's all pandering to fantasies of the teenage male.

7) And, lastly but very important: how different countries have influenced each other and how that has come out in comic books. Culture/style exchange. Social differences in what's moral/ethical from country to country. Differences in accepted gender roles, etc.

I don't know. Apart from Asterix and Tintin, I haven't read many comics from outside America. I'd say they have a far greater impact on the rarer literary comics as I can't see anything significant in the superhero genre.

- Joel Fagin

[Cat42]

If you get a chance to find it, you may want to find the issue of Squee! (i think #2) that has Jhonen's comentary on over muscular men and freakishly endowed women in it.

[Warren]

*needs more freakishly endowed women in his comics*

[That guy]

Great comments so far. Now that I'm home, here are some examples of things that I've noticed.

Wonder Woman: She was meant to be a positive role model... and in many ways is and has been the strongest female role model in popular comics. And yet - from the start she's been put in bondage positions and over-sexualized situations, even when plot-wise it's not really necessary.
http://thatguy.keenspace.com/images/WonderBondage.jpg

Cat Woman: Also a strong female character. While she has historically used her sex appeal, her many incarnations are frequently wearing less and less, showing off more skin each time.
http://thatguy.keenspace.com/images/CatwomanSkin.jpg

Rob Liefield: This popped up in another forum and I've hung on to it as a prime example of things just going TOO far with the exaggerated bust and the frightening waists. These women look like they've been crushed in their waists and everything just squeezed up.
http://thatguy.keenspace.com/images/Rob ... dSCARY.jpg

And finally, this one I'll put up as an image because it so elegantly illustrates the evolution of comic costumes. Shadowcat's supposed to be young, and she's one of my favorite characters from X-Men. Apparently chipper, innocent youth didn't sell comics.

[/img]

So... keep the commentary coming I want to know what you think.

[Warofwinds]

As a female artist, personally it makes me laugh/want-to-hurt-people when guys write women into their comics. It's like a woman MUST a) have huge breasts or must be sexually appealing in some way; or b)must be sexy and a genius. It's like you can't be normal and a woman in a comic. (exemptions from this rule include the young, the old and the adolescent)

Of course, just to keep up with everyone, there is a lot of pressure to make female characters this way. I'm hoping that, once I get there anyhow, that NONE of my characters will fit into "normal" comic categories. I have a tomboy, a demon-possessed, an Empress and her daughter and many female warriors, all lined up to quash the image being portrayed in other comics.

An extreme example? Check out Kaileena and Shahdee from Prince of Persia 2. A different media, I know, but it's like if she's gonna be warrior, she's also gotta be a skank, no matter if dressing in see-through clothing is detrimental to fighting ability. It's called armor. If the guys can wear it, why can't the girls?

Women as role models? Mindmistress, 9 chickweed lane, a little El Goonish Shive....

Portrayed differently: If a man is strong and adamant, he is likable. If a woman is strong and adamant, she's a bitch. There is no way around this, and it pisses me off. If a man is good at fighting, he's a real man. If a woman is good at fighting, she's either a) a lesbian b) not interested in men c) looking for the man who can finally beat her. If a man is sexy, good for him. Normally he doesn't turn into a man-whore. If a woman is sexy, she's expected to show it off and become a skank. Witty women are annoying. Witty men are cute...from a distance. Ugly men may star in movies, or men with huge acne scars (Brae'tac (sp?) from Stargate), but all women in movies must be appealing to the male audience. The list goes on.

Influence of a country....um....perhaps Bollywood and India. And S. Korea. S. Korean films are generally gender equal in my experience, and Indian films are just damn cool.


...and that's all I have.

[Dutch!]

Heh...the things people can write about to get degrees, eh?

Looks like you're only after female characters from the graphic novel comic forms. I only know bits and pieces from strip formats.

You know, I don't think I've ever actually sat down to wonder what sort of female characters I've used, and whether their discriminatory at all. Right. Now's as good a time as any...

Let's see...I've got...the female teacher who wears a greatcoat and a pencil through her hair...the busdriver who looks a bit like a bloke and can probably crush coconuts between her arms...possibly a tomboy who hangs around the boys and doesn't mind a bit of niggle...three snobby girls who think the rest of the cast are beneath them (I guess they're the closest I get to typecast, eh)...and one young girl who's dead.

Hmm...maybe I'm not the one to help you out after all...

[McDuffies]

1) Your input AS artists, especially female artists or artists with female characters

*shrug* As artist, I like to portray female characters at least as much detailed as male. Well, female characters are more interesting to draw, but I'd hate to just have a character standing around and, you know, look good. So I try to give some background to what I draw.

2) Your thoughts on how women are portrayed in popular print Comic Books TODAY
I think that the cliche of a female as a resident straight guy, but also temperament one, is the most widespread. Specially on net, but I also see it in print a lot. To me it is equality of female characters in a very twisted, misunderstood sort of way. Male writers are almost afraid to show female characters with any obvious flaw, but that's exactly what makes today's female characters cardboard cutouts as well: a character without any flaw just can't seem real. Also, male writers frite female characters as if they're constantly under PMS. I think the reason is, males don't know how females think. When they try to, they think along lines of popular cliches, like: "Afraid of spiders, likes shoes..." Still, there are counterexamples. I see the most alive and convincing female characters in "Scary go round". From printed comics, Muski from Aster Blistom comes to mind, perhaps as an example that in recent decades, even strict masculine writers come up with 3dimensional female characters more often.

3) Your thoughts on how women USED to be portrayed in print Comic Books.
Well, I think that from the start they were a sort of background to males. As genres changed, so did female character roles, but they remained a background. You know, in old newspaper comics, they were a classic cliched angry wifes ("Bringing up father", "Matt and Jeff"), then when era of action comic stroke they were an object that hangs on hero's shoulder, gets attacked by a monster and inevitably saved ("Flash Gordon"), none ever above the cliche.
Marvel's female characters were a special case: they always had a lot of female characters, but I think of them as males in disguise. They acter like men, made decisions men would, did just about everything like men, they just had breasts (I suspect they peed standing up). I think that was, again, due to lack of knowing the female psyche and not being able to get into the head of a female, by male writers.
My special peevee is drawing all female characters with big breasts. And I'm not talking about extremely big breasts, unproportional big breasts and stuff (those are different and long story). Thing is, your average comic lady has cups two numbers larger than average female. It is so common that nowadays, if you drew a character with cups according to normal average, you'd probably be accused of drawing unrealistically small boobs. In comics that pretent to more realistic and serious themes, this just doesn't do.

4) Any especially of extreme examples of grossly exagerated or objectified women (the bulk of Rob Liefield's work).
Oooh. I know: "Torpedo", by Bernet and Abuli. A rather popular Spanish 40ies era gangster comic with a lot lot lot of gratituous sex and violence. Authors liked to say that the sex and violence were there because it happens in real life, but it was all so simplified that you'd think that authors learned everything they knew about the world by watching the cheesiest movies ever made. Thing is, Bernet liked to draw naked women with big breasts so Abuli kept writing it in.

5) Especially good examples of women as strong, positive characters in comics, (fully developed in more ways than cup size)
Webcomics: I mentioned John Allison and "Scary-go-round". I could name several female artists too. I can't think of a specially good example of other male artist right now.
In printed comics: Hm. On top of my mind, besides "Aster Blistok" that I mentioned, "Search for a time bird" had a very convincing central character. Newer artists who grew out from underground and rely on characterisation a lot, like Trondheim, do so too.

6) Also thoughts on the ways women and men are portrayed differently, both in the clothes they wear, body types, characterization, role in plot, etc.
When it comes to clothes and stuff, I think that there is a certain logic in giving more details to female clothes as they are in real life more detailed as well. As I said, from the beginning, women were given a secondary to no role in the plot. This is a lot more changed now. "Valerian" was one of the first comics I read, where, even though male character was nominally main, authors allowed female character to take over and do all the job while male character sulked. In Flash Gordon era, this would probably be scandalous.
I've seen a lot of cases where females are drawn completely different from male. While male are drawn in a standard, reckognizable style of that artist, females are strongly sexualized, they sometimes even follow different anatomy rules - in contrast with male charactes who, if the style is very caricatural, are completely asexually looking. There's a lot of examples of that in caricatural French school ("Natacha", "Soda"), although I've seen them elsewhere too. It almost seems like male and female characters are drawn by two different artists.

7) And, lastly but very important: how different countries have influenced each other and how that has come out in comic books. Culture/style exchange. Social differences in what's moral/ethical from country to country. Differences in accepted gender roles, etc.
I'm not sure what you ask. As far as I see, there were two major directions of influence in comics: USA->Europe, and Europe->USA, in recent decades Japan joined them too. I'm not sure who got influenced by who, I'd need more history knowledge by years. I don't think that the change was so much influence that came from one particular side as from the change in general cultural atmosphere.

[Cat42]

I had a female character (based losely on how my ex made me felt) Who got shot by MacDoofel, and then later by Eddy. Then there is another one based more on my current view of her, and looks vauguely like her. She's been decapitated by both Eddy and Crossfire. Of course her counter-part (who looks alot like the real person, and is part of the reason I feel teh way I do about her) Has been blown up multiple times, gutted, drained of blood, fried, decapitated, erased...

But, I had a brief storyline where Eddy and Boothe-Oswalde Managed to kill a bunch of misogynists in a laundry mat using oil after the bastards flooded the place with soap suds. That was based on a beer ciomercial that I hated sooooooo incredibly much.

But, my comic is just plain violent. Eddy's brother suicides alot, as well as bad stuff happends to him, Eddy is violent alot, believing that murder and torture can solve any problem. Boothe-Oswalde is sort of Eddy's voice of morality (sort of).
I try to keep alot of things out of my comic though, especially gender and race roles. It's all just the amalgamation of the horrible noise in my head.

[Radewagon]

hmmm? positive portrayals of women in comics? (browses through comics collection)

Officer Deena Pilgrim: Powers by Brian Micheal Bendis

Jinx: Jinx by Brian Micheal Bendis

Tulip: Preacher by Garth Ennis

Catwoman: Long Halloween, Dark Victory, and Hush by Jeph Loeb

Evey Hammond: V for Vendetta by Alan Moore

Agent 355: Y the Last Man by Brian K. Vaughan

Carrie Kelley: Dark Night Returns and Dark Knight Strikes Again by Frank Miller

Devi: I Feel Sick by Jhonen Vasquez

[EDIT] I almost forgot. Yes, Rob Leifield is a talentless cock. Although it should be noted that his physical portrayals of women have nothing to do with an inability to understand that women are anatomically proportionate in real life. This is simply another expression of his inherent stupidity about everything. But if you want bad portrayals, just look at ANYTHING that was published in the early years of "image comics." They all look the same. It's like a bunch of guys got together and said, "hey, lets all draw like Jim Lee." And oh how they did.

I'm sure I can think of more later. also, yeah, definately check out the squee issue (yes, it is #2).

ps. pm me if you need help ummm...... acquiring the squee issue.

[Radewagon]

sorry. this will teach me to think before i post. The questions you've asked are insanely general. insanely. While I was in college I majored in English and took far too many women's studies courses. I also wrote my fair share of comic book related essays, though mine were usually about the role of comics in the 1950's in reference to the dreaded comics code. So.. if you have any specific questions you'd like answered, I'd be more than happy to help you out. Just AIM me or something.

and kudos on the cool essay topic.

[Sortelli]

Man, I've heard freaky things about Wonder Woman. The guy who created her was doing it specifically to create a female superhero role model, but then the bondage. . . according to the comic book documentary I saw, the creator had a maid who wore Wonder Woman style bondage bracers around the house. <_<

[Tynan]

Man, I've heard freaky things about Wonder Woman. The guy who created her was doing it specifically to create a female superhero role model, but then the bondage. . . according to the comic book documentary I saw, the creator had a maid who wore Wonder Woman style bondage bracers around the house. <_<

I saw that too! Dang was it ever messed up!

[Blackaby]

Not sure how much my input would really help, since I don't read comic books & I'm not an artist... but the comic I'm involved in has three chicks working on it: writer (ME!), artist and webdesigner. Unfortunately I can't say much about the genders of the characters and their portrayal, because they're actually wrong. The main character (Blackaby) was meant to be female. In all the scripts, backgrounding, and everything else, Blackaby was female, and her love interest - the comparitively bland and boring angel character (creatively named Angel) - was male.

However when I got the first sketches of the characters back from the artist, Blackaby and Angel had had their genders switched around. I still don't know why.

But the art was awesome and Angel had some seriously sexay booty going on, so I revised the script I had and just didn't tell the artist. A lot of people had assumed that Blackaby was male anyway - well, EVERYONE did, despite the fact I made a point of making her female - so I guess it was for the best. The female characters we have/ have planned (one of them, the fairy, was originally male, but I had to change the gender to fix the gender balance ratio) are:

A fat chirpy angel with a kink for 'bad boys' who is, I guess, the female lead.
A beer-drinking porn-watching werewolf.
A mad-scientist/power hungry/stalkerish fairy.
A mildly insane vegan eco-ninja elf.

[Starline]

Thatguy, we can't see the pictures you linked because keenspace doesn't allow hotlinking. No image shows up.

[NotoriousMEQ]

1) Your input AS artists, especially female artists or artists with female characters

I am female and draw a lot of female characters. A LOT. Mostly because I feel very strongly that the only way to really keep from having stereotypes when it comes to women is to show a lot of them. Because people are often so influenced by stereotypes in real life that they act them out. I get very sick of the comics with a group and ONE female character. Or two, if one of the women is a foil to the other and has no other purpose. A sole woman is automatically a love interest, automatically good looking, and no matter how hard the author may try to make her a real person, she's always going to give off 'representative of all women' vibes. More than half the freaking world is female, geez.

2) Your thoughts on how women are portrayed in popular print Comic Books TODAY

Same as they ever were. There are some good examples from both male and female authors, but there are still so many of the one or two girls in a cast that fall into the comic book cliches. They will always be a love interest. They will always be sexy and probably wear sexy clothes. A new trend has to have the main female character (pretty much the only one, usually) be a feminist. Who is a love interest. Ugh. Keep trying.

Girls like Toybox from Top Ten are things I LOVE to see. The girls in Castle Waiting. I find a lot of manga has good girl characters, mostly because a lot of girls are reading it and the authors know it.

Someone brought up Deena from Powers. Deanna is a strong character, but this is just another series where every woman must be a love interest and is good looking. Even Deena succumbed to it. I have no problem with romance (in fact, I love romance stories), but I don't like when it's automatic like that.

3) Your thoughts on how women USED to be portrayed in print Comic Books.

Again, same as they ever were. There used to be more comics for girls, but they were very narrow in scope (only romance, really). So you either had bland romatic heroines for girls and objects for boys. Every once in a while, you'd get something good out of there, but not often. It's not so much the formula that's bad, but that it's so common. Though I think things are a lot better now. Men demand more than spandex and super powers from heroines. There are a lot more girl characters in most casts, with more variety that comes from that.

6) Also thoughts on the ways women and men are portrayed differently, both in the clothes they wear, body types, characterization, role in plot, etc.

Women are typically given more fashionable clothes and more romantic situations without taking into consideration that character that has been created. It's one thing to have a girl character who cares about that have that role, but a girl who doesn't care about her looks, or hates them will suddenly wear sexy and revealing clothes? And she has a cocky attitude and transforms into a babbling sap when she falls in love? These are more about bad writing than girls in comics issues, but they are a little too common.

7) And, lastly but very important: how different countries have influenced each other and how that has come out in comic books. Culture/style exchange. Social differences in what's moral/ethical from country to country. Differences in accepted gender roles, etc.

I have to run, but I may try to give a response to this alter, because it's very interesting.

-megs

[Tears]

I was a bit dubious about responding to this, because I'm aware that I'm rather guilty of portraying women (at least visually) as walking cleavages, but on the other hand I'm a woman and I thought that maybe it would be useful to have the opinion of a woman who doesn't want to draw women as 'normal'.

So what's my point? well I suppose my point is this... I draw sexy women, but I don't really do it to please a male audience or even any audience at all besides myself. I draw women sexy because they're more interesting to draw that way, sure I could have all my female characters in jeans and t-shirts or smart little buisness suits, but frankly I'd find that boring to draw and I think I'd have a hard time thinking of them as any more than stereotypes, in a sense I would be drawing them to please a female audience.

With respect to your research I think I would like to highlight the fact that although people often claim that the portrayal of women as curvy godesses with minimalistic taste in clothing is male driven this is not entirely the case, some of that drive is coming from women.

Couple of other quick points, firstly there is sexual equality in my comic in as much as I draw my men just as sexy as my women (and just as much to my tastes rather than anyone elses) and secondly my characters are exactly that, characters. They may be more or less physically perfect (give or take a few scars and my not hugely wonderful drawing skills) but they are not perfect personality wise in fact they are all pretty much screwed up one way or another, which again is pretty much to my tastes rather than anyone elses.

In conclusion I like the pretties, I like the angst and that's what I draw. Political correctness can go hang.

[Beyonder_alpha]

They got rid of jubilee?
Also, I like the second and last version best.

[NotoriousMEQ]

With respect to your research I think I would like to highlight the fact that although people often claim that the portrayal of women as curvy godesses with minimalistic taste in clothing is male driven this is not entirely the case, some of that drive is coming from women.

I may have come off a little strongly against this sort of this, rereading my post, but yeah. I like drawing sexy ladies, too. And sexy men. Also, tastes on what is sexy varies from person to person, so it's very hard not to have a character someone will find sexy. The main thing I object to is that when you have one woman character, she is "typical sexy" to appeal to most everybody and obviously sexified, instead of just happening to be sexy. It's the purpose behind the whole thing.

But yes, I am one of many women who love drawing the ladies. And the pretty things. And it's a good point to make.


I have also completely forgotten what I was going to say about culture and itnernational stuff.

-megs