Manga vs Everyone Else

Prettysenshi · Post by **Prettysenshi** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:11 am

Is it just me, or is it true when I say that if your comic is not a webmanga, its chances of becoming popular are little to nothing? No offence to anyone at http://www.OnlineComics.net, of course, but just skim through its Popular Comics section.....I'll be damned if it isn't entirely made up of manga. Now, I have no beef with manga/anime fans....I am one myself, but does everyone love manga so much that comics in any other genre are being overshadowed?

Jha'Meia · Post by **Jha'Meia** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:14 am

Not everyone. I wouldn't venture to say that manga has become so mainstream that it makes everyone overlook other webcomics.

It's just a matter of taste. Some people like manga, and they like it a lot. Some people just don't care. Look at Penny Arcade.

EDIT: If anything, it may be just fangirls and fanboys who love it so much they keep going back to the site, day after day after day. ^^

Prettysenshi · Post by **Prettysenshi** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:34 am

Yeah, that's what I think.

I just wish that people would check out other webcomic, ei. my webcomic.
BTW, it's http://arcadia.keenspace.com. Still, I should eat my words and take my own advice....

And your right. There are alot of webcomics out there that aren't manga, and are far more popular, like RPG World....(mmm, I love Ian. J's work).http://www.rpgworldcomic.com

Jha'Meia · Post by **Jha'Meia** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:48 am

prettysenshi2k6 wrote:Yeah, that's what I think.

I just wish that people would check out other webcomic, ei. my webcomic.
BTW, it's http://arcadia.keenspace.com. Still, I should eat my words and take my own advice....

And your right. There are alot of webcomics out there that aren't manga, and are far more popular, like RPG World....(mmm, I love Ian. J's work).http://www.rpgworldcomic.com

That was a very subtle plug, wasn't it?

My favourite webcomics are not all that close to any manga style. I don't know, webmanga isn't my thing. Maybe because when I read manga, I like to read it in one continuous string, rather than the sporadic updates the way webcomics go. It's like how I feel about books, I guess.

Genesis_13 · Post by **Genesis_13** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:56 am

I smell a flamewar coming on...not from you guys, but I can picture this thread getting ugly! >< I sure hope not....

I know how you feel about the sporadic updates thing, too. Especially since a lot of webmangas update weekly, it's hard to get a continuous feel to them.

Although, take Sparkling Generation Valkyrie Yuuki, who updates like 10 pages at the end of every month - you get sort of a sense of continuation in that.

Ah, I dunno.

I do like all types of comics, though! Especially since I've seen so many bad AND good ones in both types.

BloodKnight · Post by **BloodKnight** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:02 am

Yeah, Manga has become so mainstream that everyone and their dog wants to be japanese. It's almost sickening.

I don't mind people adopting a style, but what most of these 'artists' are doing is simply raping an art style for all it's worth. I bet some japanese artists who actually LIVE in japan are either happy with all the profits they are making from a bunch of idiot fans or crying because their culture is being overdone by wannabe americans.

What really annoys me is japanese anime/manga isn't all that dandy. I'm not going to say "OMG, they are all the same". They're not, and I'll show you.

But look at this shit:

I guarantee you that it took the artists no more then a few minutes to draw that. The facial features are so simplistic and my god, what is with those eyes?

What makes it worse is despite the simplicity of the drawings, they still can't even animate properly. Most japanese cartoons have loads of techniques to reduce animation. Still-frames, loops (gundam wing, sailor moon), and constant dialog using the same mouth movement frames (yu-gi-oh, dragonball)

What really pisses me off is the majority of fan boys think the japanese are freaking artistic with all these 'techniques'. No kids, the japanese aren't artistic, they are just lazy. Kind of like White Wolf with their hundreds of rpg books.

Good thing that for every 1000 shitty japanese animations released here in the shores, they are some that really good but doesn't get well noticed.

If you read my live journal, then you know I'm going to say.

Berserk is a dark fantasy anime that got me into writing Garas as a mature comic. I've read the first volume of manga and the artwork is simply astounding. The fight scenes could use a little work and the pacing is rather slow (the comic has been going on for over 10 years and still going strong. Over 200 chapters) but it doesn't stick to the stereotypical anime cliche horsheshit. The artist, Kentaro Miura, actually cared about the human body. Hell, you can see it during the various rape/love/whore scenes in the manga. And guess what? No big eyes small mouth.

Love to see Fred pull something like this off.

Anywho, all I'm saying is I'm rather sick and tired of everyone trying to punk off a style from another country. Manga-style is more of a marketing gimmick now then doing it for the sake of art. Just make your comic anime-style and voila, you're popular. I have little to no respect for artists who do that.

Jha'Meia · Post by **Jha'Meia** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:08 am

Oh, you HAD to use a picture of Tohru from Furuba, didn't you? >_<

I must say that although the animation style is simplistic, there's something to be said about the storyline and the general atmosphere if the technicalities are overlooked.

And different artists, different style.

Still don't see the joy in skinny chicks from SW, though >_o

Col · Post by **Col** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:21 am

BloodKnight wrote:Yeah, Manga has become so mainstream that everyone and their dog wants to be japanese. It's almost sickening....Anywho, all I'm saying is I'm rather sick and tired of everyone trying to punk off a style from another country.

Gotta agree with you on that. Think how many different styles we could have if people just developed their own methods? Manga/anime style's pretty overrated, though it does have it's very, very wonderful moments too. Good anime action scenes beat out any other type of animated action any day.

prettysenshi2k6 wrote:No offence to anyone at http://www.OnlineComics.net, of course, but just skim through its Popular Comics section.....I'll be damned if it isn't entirely made up of manga.

OnlineComics.net isn't really the best source for finding what's popular. Big name comics like PVP, Penny Arcade, and others aren't on those top 100 lists anywhere, and they get the most hits out of all the comics on the web. Yeah, there's a lot of manga on that list, but they're not getting the most readers of all the webcomics. Manga is probably the most used method for webcomics though.

JexKerome · Post by **JexKerome** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:21 am

Bloodknight's mad ravings about the "evil of anime" are always amusing to read, though. Makes you wonder which "anime crap" took the fame and fortune he obviously believes he deserves.

I like manga and anime, I draw like that, I DON'T wish to be japanese, or visit Japan, or have my comic set in Japan, or have Japanese names for my characters, nor do they use japanese gestures nor otaku terms. Of course, my comic's not popular either

.

And Mr. Masamune Shirow draws awesome detail, and his art DOES have big eyes and small mouths. So the equation "big eyes small mouth = crap" is obviously wrong.

And that "style from another country" riff, like, huh?! I'm from Mexico, so pretty much all drawing styles are from another country. I'll be damned if I'm gonna stop drawing just so people like Bloodknight can breathe easier.

Now, the japanese style IS being overused and it's still pretty much a novelty; expect that to change in a couple of years. However, like color and fan service, it is at most just another way of attracting readers. If the comic's not that good it will not rise to the top. Go check the Guide and take note of all the japanese style comics out there, and then see how many of those are at the top. Obviously, the style didn't help them at all.

Conclusion: if your comic's not being as successful as you hope do not blame Anime, but rather look inward to see what's missing.

Prettysenshi · Post by **Prettysenshi** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:24 am

Whoa...I agree, this thread definately has the potential of becoming very ugly. I never thought that people would respond so quickly to them either.

And I never those about the Japanese artists as being lazy. I feel that they are resourceful. It's cheaper to use the same stuff over and over again.

Even I am a victim of copying the Anime/Manga style. I did it just so that my webcomic could have the chance of even being looked at. Of course I got over that, and now I don't really care. I rather keep my integrity then conform to the mainstream, ya know.

Alot of my work is influenced by anime/manga, as well. However, I have grown past that phase now, and made my own unique style....as you can see on my website Circle Arcadia.

And if Bloodknight is right, then alot of the people at OnlineComics.net need to get a life.....and make their own style.

BloodKnight · Post by **BloodKnight** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:27 am

I must say that although the animation style is simplistic, there's something to be said about the storyline and the general atmosphere if the technicalities are overlooked.

Like? I haven't seen many interesting or unique stories coming from japanese animation. The american counterpart isn't doing too amazing either.

Love Hina? Ranma rip off.

Eva? Probably one of the best "starting and building up the climax", but the worst ending ever.

Ghost in the shell? I'll admit that I almost jacked off to the look and animation of the movie. It was that good and I don't see any other country going to top that anytime soon. But it had to be one of the worst written movies I've ever seen. That is what you get when you have an egomaniac director who says in front of audience "we are four years ahead of everyone else."

Inuyasha? Turned out stupid in the beginning, then interesting, and now dragging as long as possible. It is also like DBZ now with Inuyasha being "Goku" and everyone else chilling from behind during the mediocre long-winded fight scenes. Oh, and the romance is just pathetic.

As I said, japanese people are not artistic, just lazy.

Prettysenshi · Post by **Prettysenshi** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:30 am

You're right, JexKerome. I shouldn't blame manga entirely for my site not being popular.

And Col, you're right, as well. OnlineComics.net isn't the best place to find webcomics. I prefer the http://www.thewebcomiclist.com now. Does anyone have any other webcomic search engines or topsites to recommend?

BloodKnight · Post by **BloodKnight** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:37 am

Bloodknight's mad ravings about the "evil of anime" are always amusing to read, though. Makes you wonder which "anime crap" took the fame and fortune he obviously believes he deserves.

Um okay, when did I mention "OMG< ANIME IS TAKING UP MY PEEEEEOOOOPLE."

Exactly, no where.

I'm just saying that it's sad to see everyone trying to take a style from another country for either popularity or trend reasons. I feel the same way with everyone getting an overpriced iPod. Discman is much cheaper.

There is a difference between being influenced by manga and emulating it to the core. Nothing wrong with influcing a certain style, since that is how all artists start, and begin to develop their own after several years of drawing.

I'll point to you to one of my favorite artists on DeviantArt, bobkitty. Her style is influenced by manga, but as you can see, it isn't the typical tripe that we see on OnlineComics. She, unlike most manga artists, developed her own style after drawing for years. If I see more of these types of artists, then I wouldn't have such hate for the manga style.

http://bobkitty.deviantart.com/

I like manga and anime, I draw like that, I DON'T wish to be japanese, or visit Japan, or have my comic set in Japan, or have Japanese names for my characters, nor do they use japanese gestures nor otaku terms. Of course, my comic's not popular either

You are a rare breed.

And that "style from another country" riff, like, huh?! I'm from Mexico, so pretty much all drawing styles are from another country. I'll be damned if I'm gonna stop drawing just so people like Bloodknight can breathe easier.

Read above where I mentioned the difference between "influence" and "emulating"

If the comic's not that good it will not rise to the top.

One word: Megatokyo.

Jha'Meia · Post by **Jha'Meia** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:43 am

BloodKnight wrote: Love Hina? Ranma rip off.

Don't even mention that one >_< The insanity of it was just... eugh.

Cute, though. I don't see how similar it is to Ranma myself, but if you say so!

Eva? Probably one of the best "starting and building up the climax", but the worst ending ever.

Ghost in the shell? I'll admit that I almost jacked off to the look and animation of the movie. It was that good and I don't see any other country going to top that anytime soon. But it had to be one of the worst written movies I've ever seen. That is what you get when you have an egomaniac director who says in front of audience "we are four years ahead of everyone else."

Inuyasha? Turned out stupid in the beginning, then interesting, and now dragging as long as possible. It is also like DBZ now with Inuyasha being "Goku" and everyone else chilling from behind during the mediocre long-winded fight scenes. Oh, and the romance is just pathetic.

As I said, japanese people are not artistic, just lazy.

You seem to be letting just one problem cloud everything else about the series /movies you've watched, though. Everything has its good and bad. I despised the ending of EVA, but there's a level of symbolism in it that I just refuse to get into.

You also have to consider the budget of the animators. For example, Evangelion's last episode, as lazy as it looks, was made that way not because they couldn't draw more, but because they simply didn't have enough money (it was either they devoted the money to other parts such as the battle scenes and such, or the budget they expected didn't come in. I forget).

And for a worst ending, it was Ninja Scroll.

I will agree that series such as DBZ, Inuyasha, Naruto and possibly Gundam simply have way way way too many episodes and drag on too long (Macross is another one of those *shudder* When one crisis is over, another one rises up; it's almost dysfunctional). That doesn't mean they're crap. It just means they're long-lasting stories.

Back to the MANGA, it is, like in Western comics, part of the culture AND the convention. Whether we like it or not, there are no REAL new ideas in conventions... what is "new" is simply a part of the current system in place skewered to LOOK new.

For example, a new fashion line of skirts. It doesn't mean the skirt has become something else entirely, it's still a skirt, it just LOOKS different. Might have different material, might be shaped differently, but at basics, it adheres to the convention of what a skirt is.

Same with all comics. Eastern or western, the eyes are still in the same place. The arms are still in the same place. The human body isn't drastically changed, it's still recognizable. It's just different.

Nyar!

Wp · Post by Wp » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:44 am

Holy crap there are some opinionated people on this forum.

Obviously I'm a manga fan, so I guess you can say I'm biased. But as you pointed out yourself, Bloodknight, not all manga is bad. You've been pointing out mainstream crap that I can agree not to like. If you actually read some non-mainstream manga, you will be amazed at the quality of the art and the depth of the stories.

Here's another example of awesome manga art, taken from Zetman, toriyamaworld.com scanslations (warning, 239k image):

[img=http://img123.exs.cx/img123/9022/zetman010057ds.th.jpg]

If you really want to emulate something artistically, try manwha (Korean "manga"). Take a look at this sucker (warning 244k):

[img=http://img123.exs.cx/img123/9038/shinangyoonshiv02c005pg1638ek.th.png]

EDIT: whoops, give credit where it is due. Cabbit scanslations, manhwa Shin Angyo Onshi.

Jha'Meia · Post by **Jha'Meia** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:44 am

BloodKnight wrote:
If the comic's not that good it will not rise to the top.
One word: Megatokyo.

I tried reading through its archives. It hurt my head ;_; And this is the Gravitation-loving freak, too.

Birdie · Post by **Birdie** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:48 am

I don't think you can slam Japanese animation for techniques that American Animators have always used. Japanese animators use simple techniques because they are trying to produce comics as quickly as possible. American Animators also use low-budget techniques like recycling footage or sliding characters to save money and time used to draw. Hell see the Ralph Bakshi movie "Wizards" and you will see an amazing story done with cheap techniques because a budget is only so much.

I prefer american comics to manga or anime, but I don't think it's right to call any manga artist lazy.

Jha'Meia · Post by **Jha'Meia** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:52 am

wp wrote: Here's another example of awesome manga art, taken from Zetman, toriyamaworld.com scanslations (warning, 239k image):

[img=http://img123.exs.cx/img123/9022/zetman010057ds.th.jpg]

If you really want to emulate something artistically, try manwha (Korean "manga"). Take a look at this sucker (warning 244k):

[img=http://img123.exs.cx/img123/9038/shinangyoonshiv02c005pg1638ek.th.png]

EDIT: whoops, give credit where it is due. Cabbit scanslations, manhwa Shin Angyo Onshi.

Ooooh, that's amazing ^_^

The first issue of Demon Diaries had this short story at the back, and that first link reminds me a lot of it.

Also of the Under The Glass Moon series.

BloodKnight · Post by **BloodKnight** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:53 am

Here's another example of awesome manga art, taken from Zetman, toriyamaworld.com scanslations (warning, 239k image):

[img=http://img123.exs.cx/img123/9022/zetman010057ds.th.jpg]

See...this is what I like. It isn't typical and very beautiful to look at. The human actually looks human (not a freakish bug eye chick) and the coloring is nice. Although for some reason, the choice of colors reminds me of french comics. Don't ask why.

K-Dawg · Post by **K-Dawg** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:55 am

When I was younger and started drawing I was influenced by anime before I even knew what anime was. I found Dragonball one morning watching cartoons; it blew me away. It was so different I had to draw like it, over 10 years now my style has changed a lot since then. Although now some people still point out they can see where my influences are in my comic.

And like Jex I draw the style mostly but I don't want to be japanese or go to Japan. Also, just because you don't like Megatokyo doesn't make it a bad comic. Hell I hardly like it at all but I see what draws people back to it.

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