If you could rename Keenspace, what would you rename it as?

For discussions, announcements, non-technical questions and anything else comics-related or otherwise that doesn't fit in any of the other categories.

Postby McDuffies on Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:26 pm

Phalanx, I don't think you're gonna succeed in making us stay on topic. Noone ever did. :( For instance, me:


First, I gotta say, and this is no more closely related to the subject of the name change, it's on general issue of webcomics: I don't think uniting is a good way. In fact, it's an extremely bad way.
Good way is healthy competition.
Remember what it was like when Keenspot entertainment was the only serious webcomic host out there? Keenspace was highly unstable, there was no new spotted comic for a year, fab four seemed to be deaf for every voice from space. You can explain this finansially tough year and usual starting problems, I feel that there was a lack of good will, or, to define it better, some laziness on their side. With appearance of competition (MT but also DD, why not), Keenspot was, of course, forced to better, to invite new cartoonists to replace the ones that gave up, whether they had an energy to do that or not.
Now, for instance, if KeenSpace wasn't so much labeled as Spot's shadow, and without that syndrome that the ultimate goal is to be spotted, I think we'd have a different situation; One that might actually make fab four actually consider the idea about paying spacers again, and other good for space actions. Unfortunately, as it is now, they can rely on the fact that a popular comic (unless MT alredy got their hands on them, and MT still deals with relatively small number of comics) will eventually end up on Spot, if they wanted to. And of course, a very small number of comics will reject spotting, and I can't blame them.
This will change hugely when Webcomic Nation arrives, I think. In fear of best of Space moving to WN, Spotters will have to act, either by bettering the state of space or by inviting a load of them to spot. Sadly, I think it will be the second, but still, it might lead to positive changes. And this is only one clumsy example of what healthy competition might lead to.
So in short, I think development of webcomics lies in dividing, not integrating.

Ghastly wrote:What I hate is the division within Keen. Keen used to be one big family, even if not happy all the time. It's evident now that Spot no longer wants to view Space as part of the Keen family.


josh l. wrote:Because we work for Keenspot. You don't. They just host your stuff.


Gav wrote:The difference, of course, is that Keenspacers are customers and Keenspotters are employees.


See what I mean?

Point. But...
[attention: following rant has not much relation with the topic]
I think the problem is (as well as lots of problems in communication) in translation general business rules too directly to internet business. It's also the cause of the argument with Striker about XXX thread, or on the other side argument about giving inside info to a larger circle of people, etc. Those were all misunderstandings derived from the fact that someone was applying laws derived from off-line business too directly, without any adjustment neccesary for dealing over internet.
That's why porn industry landed so well on internet, because they weren't copying from off-line business, but found their own ways that actually work on internet. Recently, other 'net companies are even rethinking the idea of using some porn industry business ways.

That's what one thing that was always bugging me. Scot McCloud wrote rants about the subscription model of MT as the perfect one, because it's so similar to the model of newspaper comics (you get the last one for free, but have to pay for the entire book/archives). But this thinking is wrong and very naive. As Teretrous once said, internet is about getting for free what you'd have to pay for otherwise. That means not only that people would find a way to get those comic free, but also, and more, that they'd satisfy with comics that are already free. And there'll always be free comics on internet. Thus, MT's business doesn't work as good as it's expected. And it wouldn't be even as good if there wasn't for some specifically internet-type business models that they apply (to see what I mean by that, check tac forum, for instance. With all those adds on top, left and bottom, it starts to seem like a bit add-overcrowded porn sites - and paradoxally, this is not so bad thing, as it guarantees advertisement to MT)

How does this apply to our case? By taking categories of "Employee" and "Customer" directly from off-line, and sticking them to on-line categories. Of course Space is artist-oriented, it has artist-oriented interface, with big "Log-in" button for artists on main page. But keenspace artists are, and this is a problem, not employees but certainly not customers either. I guess the closest term would be members but not totally accurate either. But back to "customer" term. Keenspace is community-based. It's main force are artists, and they're a lot to thank for what Keenspace got. Say, who's to thank for a good business of mcDonalds? Is it regular customers who bring the good atmosphere to the restaurant? Are bank account owners to thank for bank's good business? Not likely. Tagging keenspace artists as customers is downright silly. Though tagging them as employees would be a miss too. They're simply a new business category. I don't think Gav or Josh would like to hear this, but they appear as more nearsighted than average porn site owner.


But I don't want Space to reject Spot. I never have. That has never, ever been what I've been about. Everything I have argued for since almost the day I became a Spacer has been with the best intentions and betterment of all of Keen, Space and Spot alike, in mind. I have never been about tearing down Spot. I've never been about tearing down Space. I've been about the two working more closely together for the benefit of all Keen's artists.

Don't let something I said make you think that I think otherwise.

Edit: I wrote Joel instead of Josh. meh,
Last edited by McDuffies on Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Executor_Arthas on Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Ok, first off, I agree with Ghastley, and think that we get treated like shit. Chris only cares about us for our ad revenues, and I'm sure that if someone offered to buy Keenspace off of him for $50,000 US he'd do it. Keenspace helps advertise Keenspot. Hell, most of the time when I get on these forums, I see an add for Elf Life, and when I surf around on keenspace sites, I see a shit load of keenspot ads everywhere, but the only thing that Keenspot has there, is a mention of us in their FAQ, and a little link on the main site. The brand name is Keen, and that's what they use. Think about it, KEENspace, KEENspot, KEENtoons, KEENswag. They all have KEEN in them. If you don't want the merchandise getting mixed up, why not change them ALL? I think, that without Keenspace, Keenspot would be screwed. In a newspost on the Keenspot main page, it said they made over 80,000 in ad revenues alone. But how much of that came from us?! Hell, even those of us who hardley get any hits at all still make them money! Even if you go over the "recommended" site size, they still make a about 50% in profit or so. With Keenspot, they don't want us becoming closer, because that'd make them look less of eliteists, and more common, when they're compared to us. We're the ghetto of the webcomic universe, and angelfire and geocities might be worse than us, but if they just throw us aside except when they need to use the benefits from us for their gain, than the community will decay here more and more. Hell, when I joined these forums in December, I was going to go with Xepher.net because of the bad rep I heard about you guys, and the owner of Xepher was talking about how he wanted a community like ours. He wanted the topsites, the guide, and the forum community, because he saw how close we were, and the benefits that we were having on each other, even if some people who don't even make a single comic sign up and then just leave. I mean look at Ghastley, hell, he's more popular than most webcomics period. Hell, Comixpedia even named him one of the 17 Notorious Webcomic Artists!!! (if you want to read that article go to: http://www.comixpedia.com/modules.php? )op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1668 Hell, even if you count the fact that we're considerred the ghettos, I bet more people know about us than Keenspot, even if it is for our bad rep! We're notorious! Do you honestly think changing our name is going to disassociate us from Keenspot?! Hell, even if most of the audience for webcomics are new, the veterans are still gonna be talking about us, even if it is bad talk! There's no such thing as bad publicity, and Squidi, Big Evil, Juno, Ghastley, and Gabe/Tycho can account to that.
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Postby Soul_Thief on Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:27 pm

WOW, this is intense- rants, flames, REAL insults...reminds me of the good ol' days...BTW, Ex, which article is it in your link?


:o


Oh dear God. I said 'BTW'. Apocalypse now? or soon?
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Postby Jim North on Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:01 pm

Joel Fagin wrote:Of course, but there's nothing wrong with word of mouth. I can't read every comic, watch every movie or read every book in order to have an opinion on it.

Ag, again . . . no, I'm not talking about going to every single thing and checking it all out. You don't have to have an opinion about everything, after all, but you should restrict your opinions to what you yourself have personally checked out. Otherwise, you're just going off half-cocked about something you know next to nothing about.

Phalanx wrote:You do realise that it would be far far harder to change the name of Keenspot, right? Keenspot is the name of the REGISTERED COMPANY as well and that exists outside of the internet.

We're talking about changing the name of Keenspot the product, not Keenspot the company. They change their front to . . . "Konglomerate", say. It'd be all "Konglomerate and all affiliated nonsense is a trademark and subject to copyright by Keenspot, Inc." and so on. Same company with the same name running their old product under a new title. If the Coca-Cola Company changed Coca-Cola the drink's name to Siddy-Soda, it'd still be coke underneath and they'd still be the Coca-Cola Company, neh?
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Postby Mercury Hat on Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:37 pm

You can all rest easy now, I believe us chatters have found the perfect name.

Are you ready for this?

Doombees.

Say it.

Think about it.

Read this conversation!

The chatroom wrote: Feru DOOM BEES!!
Crossfire25 DOOOOOM
Mercury_Hat WE SHALL BE THE DOOMBEES AND EVERYONE SHALL FEAR US
Mercury_Hat READ MY COMIC AT MERCURYHAT.DOOMBEES.COM
Crossfire25 PH34R
Mercury_Hat Reading that really makes me laugh
Jim_North Will we get cute little doombee hats?
Crossfire25 hehe
Mercury_Hat But of course
Mercury_Hat Kisai can we change it to doombees? Please?
Jim_North wears his doombee hat and buzzes around.


With a name like that we can't lose!
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Postby Jim North on Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:43 pm

As strange as it might sound, I'd actually be quite okay with a name change if we could be the Doombees. :lol:
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Postby McDuffies on Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:53 pm

Soul_Thief wrote:Oh dear God. I said 'BTW'. Apocalypse now? or soon?[/color]

So what, exec_arthas used "hell" in a relatively short rant straight seven times. :wink: I think this calls for a sip of siddy-soda.
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Postby Bekka on Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:43 am

Some available domains:

allthatspace.net

allofspace.com / .net / .org

nomorespace.net / .org

doodlespace.com / .net / .org

---------

EDIT: I hadn't seen the post about doombees. I LOVE DOOMBEES!
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Postby PinDummy on Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:49 am

This is just like the Twilight Zone.

I leave for a couple of days and return to find Damonk left Comixpedia, My friend Gianna has been showcased there and on top of that ANOTHER HUGE SPOT/SPACE DABACLE STARTED WITHOUT ME AROUND!

Anyways... I`m happy I don`t check the Spot forums. It really bruises the ego to see Josh Lesnick talking on us like that. But so be it!

You guys don`t have to worry about reusing my logo. If we come up with another name, a whole new contest can be held. There's no way we can lose!
I'm just a do... No, wait, I'm your worst nightmare...
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Postby Joel Fagin on Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:10 am

PinDummy wrote:You guys don`t have to worry about reusing my logo.


Hooooooollld up! You did the logo? I had assumed it was RPin!

Ack. Weirdness.

- Joel Fagin, who wasn't here at the time of the logo contest thingie.
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Postby Executor_Arthas on Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:44 am

First off, that article was made in like June, so other than the fact it was written by Xexeres or how ever you spell it, I don't know much more, except for the fact that about half the list was of Keenspace comics. Be they used to be here, or they still are, we un doubatedly have and have had the most perverted and dirty comics. That, and Poe's pissed that he didn't get in there, and was re thinking not doing the bimp lesbian scene that everyone wanted ;).

Oh, and as for the hell thing, I can't help it! When your dad says things like: "Now I don't know where the fuck you learned that dirty fuckin' language, but you sure as hell didn't learn it from me." you can't help but curse just to see if he'll say it again, and this time hopefully get it recorded, so you can laugh your ass off when ever you want!
-Exe
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http://eternaldestinies.keenspace.com
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Postby Rkolter on Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:03 am

DoomBees is pretty cool.
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Postby Ghastly on Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:03 am

mcDuffies wrote:First, I gotta say, and this is no more closely related to the subject of the name change, it's on general issue of webcomics: I don't think uniting is a good way. In fact, it's an extremely bad way.
Good way is healthy competition.


Not when you're competing against yourself. Even united under the same umbrella Space has been getting the short end of the stick. Imagine how much that will change if Space is seen as competing against Keenspot. Do you really think that just by kicking us out of the Keen family Spotters will suddenly be okay with Keen focusing it's attention on improving Space? Do you think they'll suddenly be okay with Keen treating Spacers like peers instead of just hostees?

No, because once Space is disassociated from Keen it'll be open season on us.

Now, for instance, if KeenSpace wasn't so much labeled as Spot's shadow, and without that syndrome that the ultimate goal is to be spotted, I think we'd have a different situation; One that might actually make fab four actually consider the idea about paying spacers again, and other good for space actions. Unfortunately, as it is now, they can rely on the fact that a popular comic (unless MT alredy got their hands on them, and MT still deals with relatively small number of comics) will eventually end up on Spot, if they wanted to.


Except that's not the way it works and it certainly won't be the way it works once we're no longer part of the Keen family and only mere "customers".

Keen had no interest in Spotting Space talent because they didn't need to. Most Spacers were willing to put up with the system so Keen got to reap all the profits from the Spacer's work without having to share any with the artist. That would change once the artist was on Spot. It came down to "why pay for the cow when you get the milk for free".

Changing our name won't change that. Spot will still get preferential treatment. Space artists will still not only be exploited but disrespected by Spot. In fact the disrespect will be even worse because now we'll be even more on the outside.

And of course, a very small number of comics will reject spotting, and I can't blame them.


Yeah and look what happened there. Space Coyote was treated very disrespectfully by Spot as a lowly Spacer. When they finally got around to admitting she had talent and invited her to join the country club she had the courage to say she didn't want to be part of such a system. Then she was disrespected even more by Spot.

You see this clearly demonstrates that the Spot artists are Employees and Space artists are merely customers analogy is pure bullshit because let's face it, if I ran a company where the employees openly treated the customers with such hostile disrespect, well, let's just say they wouldn't be employees much longer.

Segregate Space from the rest of Keen and the situation will only get much worse. They may be giving us our own bus but don't fool yourself into thinking they still won't make us sit at the back of that one.

This will change hugely when Webcomic Nation arrives, I think. In fear of best of Space moving to WN, Spotters will have to act, either by bettering the state of space or by inviting a load of them to spot. Sadly, I think it will be the second, but still, it might lead to positive changes.


The could fix the problem simply by running Space as a meritocrisy. Our server is every bit as good as Spot's server now. Downtime is no longer the problem it once was. Open up merchandising, print publishing, and profit sharing to the top Spacers and they'll have no trouble not losing talent. Spotters don't want this. They want Spacers to be nothing but hostees. They want us to be a charity case. They want us to be an easy target they can pick on to try and make themselves look like professionals. They certainly don't want us getting any of the perks that make being on Spot so great.

This attitude won't change one bit if we are removed from the Keen family.

There is no real reason why merchandising and print publishing can't be offered to the top Space comics. Last month I sold $300 worth of T-shirts without even trying. Out of that my cut was $30 and the rest of the $270 ended up going not into Keen's coffers but a crappy third party company that makes crappy products. Now I don't really care that much about sales and what-not. I only offered the T-shirts so people would stop e-mailing me bugging me about t-shirts (but it doesn't really seem to work, they still bug me for different t-shirts). The point is though, would I rather see that $270 going into the coffers of some third party company I couldn't give two shits about or would I rather see that $270 going into the coffers of a company I am part of where it could be used to strengthen us all?

Of course I'd want to see that money going to Keen. A healthy Keen means a healthy Space and a healthy Spot.

Of course then Spotters wouldn't be able to condem us as just hostees and Gav wouldn't be able to slight us as mere customers. Let's face it. If you could achieve everything from Keen on Space that is pivillage on Spot just by working hard enough for it, not too many people would care about being on Spot or Space anymore.

I'm just one comic on Space too. Look at all the other popular comics that are here. There's absolutely no reason why Keen could not be offering merchandising and publishing benefits to it's other top producing Space comics, except that certain Spotters will get all pissy and bent out of shape about it because then they'll no longer be justified in treating us like we're some sort of charity just barely tolerated by Keen.

None of this is going to be fixed by making us an even easier target for Spot to bully.


Thus, MT's business doesn't work as good as it's expected.


MT's business model works just as well as Keen's does. The model for Keen and MT is the same. It's not about the artists being able to make a living off their comic, it's about the people who host those artists being able to make a living off the artist's comic.

Apart from a few extremely successful independent webcomics such as Sluggy Freelance, MegaTokyo, PVP and Penny Arcade most webcomic artists don't make a lot of money as individuals. Companies like Keen and Joey Manley Inc. are able to make a living by scooping up all the lesser successes, and adding all the revinue potential of these little guys together to make one big chunk of cash.

If you think the business of MT was for its artists to make a living then Keen is just as big a failure because precious few of its artists use their webcomic as their primary means of household income. That's not what MT or Keen are about though. MT is to make Joey Manley a living and Keen is to make the Fab Four a living. Any bones thrown towards the artists are done so because it is advantageous to MT and Keen's ultimate goal of making money.

Maybe someday their comic empires will become so big and powerful that the artists who are part of them are actually able to make a living from the bones they're tossed.

Don't let something I said make you think that I think otherwise.


Well you certainly seem to be all gung-ho for getting Space out of Keen.
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Postby AndrewTaylor on Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:17 am

Ghastly wrote:Keen had no interest in Spotting Space talent because they didn't need to. Most Spacers were willing to put up with the system so Keen got to reap all the profits from the Spacer's work without having to share any with the artist. That would change once the artist was on Spot. It came down to "why pay for the cow when you get the milk for free".

That makes a lot of sense, but as far as I can see, not only will changing tha name(s) not fix it, I can't see how anything could fix it unless Spot and Space were independant - and therefore competing, and if they were then I don't see what would stop Spot essentially buying out most of Space's top talent.
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Postby Alaina on Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:04 am

Joel Fagin wrote:
PinDummy wrote:You guys don`t have to worry about reusing my logo.


Hooooooollld up! You did the logo? I had assumed it was RPin!

Ack. Weirdness.

- Joel Fagin, who wasn't here at the time of the logo contest thingie.


PinDummy=RPin
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Postby McDuffies on Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:11 am

Ghastly wrote:
mcDuffies wrote:First, I gotta say, and this is no more closely related to the subject of the name change, it's on general issue of webcomics: I don't think uniting is a good way. In fact, it's an extremely bad way.
Good way is healthy competition.


Not when you're competing against yourself. Even united under the same umbrella Space has been getting the short end of the stick. Imagine how much that will change if Space is seen as competing against Keenspot. Do you really think that just by kicking us out of the Keen family Spotters will suddenly be okay with Keen focusing it's attention on improving Space? Do you think they'll suddenly be okay with Keen treating Spacers like peers instead of just hostees?
etc etc etc.


Sigh. Ghastly, before replying, better read my post through the end. You're reading into my words by ripping them out of context, and it's getting very boring to argue with you when you cut my thought in half to claim something I claim myself a little lower in the text, which you don't know because you either didn't read before replying or read selectively. In that manner, you actually made it sound as if I was pro the definition of spacers as customers, while my entire post was actually about claiming the oposite.
Also, don't make me advocate of the Spot. Lot's of things Spot does is indeed unfair, there's no reason to repeat the story how top spacers are not getting payed, not getting oportunity to get merchandise or print, not getting enough advertisement, etc. I completely agree with you, so does most of people here, so by repeating it in every single post acomplishes nothing. My point is, how to make it better, how to change it?
Third thing: I said very directly that I don't think changing the name is gonna accomplish anything, it's not gonna make spotters instantly respect us, it's not gonna make anything instantly. I am saying that changing the name is opening the oportunity for us to slowly build a strong brand, with time. Not instantly! With time! Long term! With risk of possible failure! Depending on us! In your last post only, on several places, you're implying that I think changes are gonna happen instantly. I do not. This is the last time I repeat it so read more carefully.

MT's goal, by Manley's words, is for artists to make a living of it. Thus, this goal is far from accomplished. That's what I ment when I said it's not working as good as it's expected. But also, MT is supported a lot by business models characteristic for internet, such as free previews or relatively agressive add campaigns. My entire point of that sentence was to support the claim that internet business can't be based on off-line business models, that a lots of adjustments characteristic for internet have to be added. And this was, further, so show that keenspace artists shouldn't be treated as customers. Again, you ripped my sentence out of context and gave it totally different meaning. It's hard to talk with someone who hears every tenth word you say.

Well you certainly seem to be all gung-ho for getting Space out of Keen.

I think it would help Space. Of course, it's easier for me to have a firm attitude since I have no call in it. If I had a call, that would mean some actual responsibility so I guess I wouldn't form opinion so easily. But that's the way it is.
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Postby JPSloan on Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:20 am

"I roll up an assassin named Anti-Keenspot."

Thank you, KotDT.
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Postby Wp on Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:41 am

I know that Space Coyote can't be the only one to refuse a Spot position. Why did she get all the fallout and not the others?
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Postby Executor_Arthas on Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:47 am

It's shit like this that makes me want to start my own comic group faster...
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Postby Faub on Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:57 am

Ghastly wrote:There is no real reason why merchandising and print publishing can't be offered to the top Space comics. Last month I sold $300 worth of T-shirts without even trying. Out of that my cut was $30 and the rest of the $270 ended up going not into Keen's coffers but a crappy third party company that makes crappy products. Now I don't really care that much about sales and what-not. I only offered the T-shirts so people would stop e-mailing me bugging me about t-shirts (but it doesn't really seem to work, they still bug me for different t-shirts). The point is though, would I rather see that $270 going into the coffers of some third party company I couldn't give two shits about or would I rather see that $270 going into the coffers of a company I am part of where it could be used to strengthen us all?


There's no real reason why we couldn't devise a merchandising company ourselves. Pick a good printer. Pay for shirts, mugs, etc in bulk. The problem is distribution which is something Keen handles. One of the goals I had with the Keenspace sampler was to see if getting spacers to distribute their own work as well as the work of others would be worth attempting.

For example, take a small group of spacers, say 25-50. Sell them the right to print some number of T-shirts at an agreed on printer for 20% of the retail price of the shirts. For a $15 T-shirt, the original artist makes $3 and the distributor gets to sell the T-shirts for $15 but must pay for the printing costs. The printing is done locally and distributed by the spacer however s/he deems workable. I'm not entirely certain how to limit the order and prevent the distributor from printing as many as s/he wanted, though. Some kind of contract would be in order.

This system would work pretty well for books because a PDF can be copied over the Internet for almost nothing. A paper book must be shipped and shipping costs are MUCH more than the price of the book.

The real trick is sifting through the industry to find out convenient methods of printing and to work out this reversed service agreement in international law. (Maybe this isn't possible but it sounds reasonable in my head.)

The artist provides content and makes a certain amount of money per book/piece of merchandise. The distributor does all the work of selling, making as much money as s/he can from the item. It would be like having your own comic book store. I would love to go to a con with a stack of Digital War comics or The Jaded or Ghastly Comic or whatever. A mail order system could eliminate sales tax and international shipping costs by passing the customer along to the best distributor for his/her location.

Keenspot is unnecessary if we're willing to do our own work and be creative about it.
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Faub
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