If you could rename Keenspace, what would you rename it as?

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Postby Alaina on Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:53 pm

I second Inkspace and Studiospace. They both sound somewhat professional and incorporate "space", which ties us back to our Keenspace origins.

Keenspot can screw themselves. Yeah, we'll change our name, then we'll kick their ass with our stats and during conventions we'll give'em wedgies.
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Postby Pockybot on Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:56 pm

First off, if a webcomic has 'made it', I dont see why they would have anything to do with the keen name at all. I mean, it aint sinfest.keenspot.com, it's sinfest.com

There is a definate stigma to having keen in your url...I mean it is not as bad as having geocities or angelfire in it, but it's a perception problem. When the 'company' moves to a town with a population less than that of most WalMart employees...that is not a good sign.

Also, why si there such a massive seperation implied between keenspot and keenspace forums or communities? Is it an elitist thing? As in my eyes, I see no difference between keenspot and keenspace...they both have that 'keen' thing going on.
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Postby McDuffies on Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:58 pm

Ghastly wrote:If by help you mean alienate us further from the Keen family then I suppose.

I just see it as a way of further disenfranchising Spacers from what goes on in Keen. The fact that this name change is being forced upon us by Spotters further supports this.
....


Wow.One word: Chill out, man. Not every hypothetic situation is a reason for long and hateful rants. :o Seems like you hate spot really much.
Let's hear someone who's professionally in marketing business whether it's gonna be beneficial or not. We students, engineers, programmers, musicians, etc, are just shooting in the dark when talking about this.

I for one would not be happy. It doesn't matter what you call us, we're not going to be "distinguishable" from most of Keenspot anyways because the top Keenspace comics are almost identical to the top Keenspot comics in quality anyways.

And it is also identical to top comics on Drunk Duck, or Modern Tales services, or any other host so nobody is instantly relating those to Keenspot. Webcomics in general have developed a slightly different visual identity than printed comics and that's the only reason why they seem indistinguishable. To you.

Forcing Spacers to change their name isn't going to make anyone suddenly think those Spot strips are now good.

Nothing in the world happens suddenly. We were not talking about some sudden change, we were actually talking about slowly developing a difference between those, and I think we have more chance to do that with brands separated.
Example: If we want to pull Faub's book project, having already a different name (with logo and, in general, brand), would make it more simple than not having them (which is a current situation). I'm not saying that it's fair that we can't use KeenSpace name, quite oposite, I'm actually saying that with different name we wouldn't have spot people hanging on our neck, we could move more freely.

There have indeed been a few changes, but don't kid yourself into thinking that a couple of Spacers promoted up through the ranks have suddenly fixed everything. There's still a lot of anti-Space resentment in Spot.

Ok, now, one moment you're talking about a few hatred-ridden spotters who hate space, the other you're translating that feeling on entire spot. Half of lineup has been changed in Spot in last year or so, in a year or two, the rest could change too. In a year or two, new hosts could arrive, and all the talk about newbies whose only wish is to "be Spotted" will be history (even now it's pretty old). People come and go in webcomic world in a matter of minutes, and things change so quickly.
On the other side, if a name is changed, that's gonna last for a long, long time.
So let's think less about what some spotters think or say.

There's still very little difference between your average popular Space strip and your average Spot strip. A great many Spot strips are only read simply because they're able to ride on Tatsuo Ishida's and Michael Poe's fame and talent, feeding off the few adventurous clicks off their sites to expore the rest of Keenspot. Take away Keenspot's promotional power and many of those strips would likely not even be pulling in the numbers of the top 100 here on Space.

Note: It's general problem with Spot, but it's highly unrelated with a subject we have here. In fact, the fact that we're not free to work with Space brand makes our promotional power even smaller.

In short:
Be less biased about spot, Ghastly. Don't read into things so much. Things are changing, and you're still saying basically the same thing as year or two ago. That's not very helping things to change.
You can as well think of this as Space rejecting Spot as a basket case, not the oposite.
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Postby Joel Fagin on Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:11 pm

Mercury_Hat wrote:In order for Space to break off from any sort of stigma, we'd have to get rid of the offensive (to some), badly drawn, badly written comics and that would only further subdivide the place as a whole.


No, you simply have to see if you can't get them to look at the better looking stuff first. Renaming Space will allow a second first impression from many people which would be wise not to waste.

Keen should pull together instead of apart. House divided yadda yadda and so on.


Aye.* But that's not going to happen.

Edit: And since it's not going to happen, I actually think this might be the next best thing. I mean, Space is seen (accurately or not) as a Spot farming ground, as Spot's lesser quality younger sibling and so on. Heck, by simple implication, all Space comics are easily seen as being not good enough for Spot, right? Because we're not on Spot. That's not true but it's an easy and obvious conclusion from the facts.

Breaking the connection to Spot would remove some of that. If there is no obvious connection to Spot then people won't make that connection more than it is.

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* To a - mostly superficial - point, that is. They should, for example, retain their own servers.
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Postby Jim North on Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:33 pm

Feh. If people are going to judge the quality of my or anyone elses' comic based on the fact that we've got "keenspace.com" in our URLs rather than take a look and judge it on its own merits, then to hell with them.

I'd rather have people that'll come in and enjoy what I've created regardless of whether I'm on Space or Spot or Smash or Duck or http://www.roleofthedie.com or anything else. Changing Keenspace's name would only serve to sucker in a bunch of morons who'd rather make sweeping, generalized comments about things than study, search, and come to an informed opinion . . . and then they'd start infecting the tag boards and the forums, and start saying stupid things like "OMG, I was tricked into reading a Keenspace comic!" or "Wow, you're comic is quality . . . I can see why you left Keenspace" or "Man, this place sucks! Go back to Keenspace, dickhead!" . . . bleh.

I'd rather use old name as a shield against that sort of thing, thank you. :P
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Postby Joel Fagin on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:00 pm

Jim North wrote:Changing Keenspace's name would only serve to sucker in a bunch of morons who'd rather make sweeping, generalized comments about things than study, search, and come to an informed opinion . . . and then they'd start infecting the tag boards and the forums, and start saying stupid things like "OMG, I was tricked into reading a Keenspace comic!" or "Wow, you're comic is quality . . . I can see why you left Keenspace" or "Man, this place sucks! Go back to Keenspace, dickhead!" . . . bleh


Not the vocal minority. The middle of the bell curve, those who don't like or believe the naysayers but are probably of the opinion that they have a point somewhere in there. Humans, after all, exagerate in order to be believed. If you say that a movie is the worst load of utter tripe you've ever had the complete misfortune to witness and, my God it was awful, then no one will believe that literally, but they will believe the movie was bad.

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Postby Ghastly on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:04 pm

Incidently, on the subject of brand confusion. Please stop suggesting Inkspace it is already a registered trademark in several different industries. Adopting the name Inkspace is not going to diminish any alleged brand confusion. It's only going to make our brand confused with other people's brands of the exact same name.

Sheeesh!






mcDuffies wrote:Wow.One word: Chill out, man. Not every hypothetic situation is a reason for long and hateful rants. :o Seems like you hate spot really much.


What I hate is the division within Keen. Keen used to be one big family, even if not happy all the time. It's evident now that Spot no longer wants to view Space as part of the Keen family.


josh l. wrote:Because we work for Keenspot. You don't. They just host your stuff.


Gav wrote:The difference, of course, is that Keenspacers are customers and Keenspotters are employees.


See what I mean?

Josh, the money Keenspace artists earn for Keen is just as spendable as the money Keenspot artists earn for Keen, the only difference is Keenspacers don't get a fair share of it. On top of that Keen gains a hell of a lot of promotion for it's Spot assets on the labours of Space talents. You know I love ya Josh, but seriously, when you talk like that you can just cram that whole "they just host your stuff" bullcrap somewhere uncomfortable, sideways. You know that's not true.

Gav, I am not a customer. I am a webcomic artist who is a proud part of this community. If I wasn't a proud and contributing part of Keen I would have blown this place for greener pastures long ago. Or even worse, when Burst yanked their ads I would have sat back, done nothing, and fullfilled my end of the bargain by running the useless ***advertisement*** tag on the top of my page. The fact that I took the initiative to try and come up with a solution that benefits not only myself but Keen as well should clearly demonstrate that I am not a mere "customer" but a contributing asset to Keen.

The attitude within Spot towards Space is unhealthy for all of Keen. Refering to the artists on Space as just hostees, as mere customers goes beyond being disrespectful to community of talent on Space that have built Keen into what it is.

Just as Keen owes a lot to the works of its star Spot talents such as Tatsuo Ishida and Michael Poe it also owes no small part of its success to the hard work and efforts of the collective body of Keenspace artists. Don't demean us by treating us like charity. Don't demean us by saying we're merely customers.

We've worked very hard to get where we are. Even though not all of us on Space are great talents, so very many of us work very hard to make Keenspace a reputable place. Don't diminish us and don't dismiss us.

I understand the Spotters are your golden-boys. That's fine and dandy. You don't need to put Spacers down to build them up. We are your peers in the webcomic industry. You will find if you treat us with respect you will get respect in turn.

No one is more sick to death of the bitterness and bickering that is taking place between Spot and Space than I. What we need is less division and more co-operation. What we need is for people on both sides to realize that what benefits Keen benefits both Spot and Space.

And it is also identical to top comics on Drunk Duck, or Modern Tales services, or any other host so nobody is instantly relating those to Keenspot. Webcomics in general have developed a slightly different visual identity than printed comics and that's the only reason why they seem indistinguishable. To you.


One thing I learned very quickly is that most readers could care two shits about all the politics behind webcomics and who host them. Most readers probably couldn't tell you who hosts any particular webcomic. None of that stuff is important. They don't become that involved in the behind the scenes stuff. They just read the webcomics they like, maybe send an e-mail or two to the author and maybe bitch when it doesn't update on time. That's all they care about really, is the comic I like going to be there when I go to read it. They don't care if it's Drunk Duck or Keenspot or Graphics Smash or anything like that.

There are far more important issues Keenspot artists should be worried about other than "someone might accidently think I'm on Keenspace" and disenfranchising Space isn't going to help those issues any.

Nothing in the world happens suddenly. We were not talking about some sudden change, we were actually talking about slowly developing a difference between those, and I think we have more chance to do that with brands separated.


I don't think seperate is the direction we should be moving. I think our greatest strength lie in a closer partnership between the Keenspace community and the Keenspot community. Together we're a much greater force than the sum of our parts.

Example: If we want to pull Faub's book project, having already a different name (with logo and, in general, brand), would make it more simple than not having them (which is a current situation). I'm not saying that it's fair that we can't use KeenSpace name, quite oposite, I'm actually saying that with different name we wouldn't have spot people hanging on our neck, we could move more freely.


And I'd rather see more integration than segregation. We shouldn't have Spot people hanging on our necks to begin with. Spotters should realize that what benefits Spacers benefits them and vice versa.

Ok, now, one moment you're talking about a few hatred-ridden spotters who hate space, the other you're translating that feeling on entire spot. Half of lineup has been changed in Spot in last year or so, in a year or two, the rest could change too. In a year or two, new hosts could arrive, and all the talk about newbies whose only wish is to "be Spotted" will be history (even now it's pretty old).


To be honest, if Space and Spot put aside their differences and work together for the common good nobody will really care if they're on Space or if they're on Spot anymore.

Already, with the introduction this year of reliable hardware, the primary Spotting motivation for many has been removed. Imagine what would happen if the implimented merchandising, publishing, and profit sharing to Spacers of merit. Nobody would really care about being on Spot since you could be every bit as successful as a franchise on Space.

It makes more sense to work to bring the two factions more inline with one another than it does to further alienate Spacers.


Note: It's general problem with Spot, but it's highly unrelated with a subject we have here. In fact, the fact that we're not free to work with Space brand makes our promotional power even smaller.


The promotional power of Space is quite formidable. When you have as many collective pageviews as Keenspace you're a powerful promotional force. Why do you think Keen keeps us around? It certainly can't be to have handy whipping boys. They keep us around because collectively (and for some of us individually) we generate a lot of promotional muscle that can be used to strengthen Keenspot.

We've finally, this year, got to see a little bit of the promotional might turned back upon ourselves with the Keenspace Newsbox (thank you Kisai).

You can as well think of this as Space rejecting Spot as a basket case, not the oposite.


But I don't want Space to reject Spot. I never have. That has never, ever been what I've been about. Everything I have argued for since almost the day I became a Spacer has been with the best intentions and betterment of all of Keen, Space and Spot alike, in mind. I have never been about tearing down Spot. I've never been about tearing down Space. I've been about the two working more closely together for the benefit of all Keen's artists.
Last edited by Ghastly on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby IVstudios on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:06 pm

Jim North wrote:I'd rather have people that'll come in and enjoy what I've created regardless of whether I'm on Space or Spot or Smash or Duck or http://www.roleofthedie.com or anything else. Changing Keenspace's name would only serve to sucker in a bunch of morons who'd rather make sweeping, generalized comments about things than study, search, and come to an informed opinion


That would be nice. But face it, there are way too may web comics out there to read each of them before passing judgment. I'll admit, there are a lot of comics that I have refused to read based only on a first glace. If the art is "bad" or the plot in the first 3 or 4 strips is boring or they use the word "stinky" one too many times I just ignore it. Its not really fair but there are just too may choices.

Granted, it don't agree it's fair to have Keenspace automatically labeled as "a place for sucky web comics", but then again we do have a lot of them. :wink:

*glares at people who only do one comic and quit*

But that
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Postby Joel Fagin on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:18 pm

Ghastly wrote:One thing I learned very quickly is that most readers could care two shits about all the politics behind webcomics and who host them.


But the writers do and the passionate readers, those on the forums, they do as well. These are two big sources of new readers for comics, what with link sections, plugs, fanart, crossovers and so on, so their preferences will be passed on to the readers.

I never search for new comics to read and I've never met anyone who does. No one types "webcomic" into Google. It's all signatures, banners and crossovers - passing readers around. The people who control those things therefore control the readers and if there's a subtle disapproval for Keenspace among those people with the control then it will be reflected here.

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Postby Luprand on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:20 pm

Weird ... I've seen this happen in another community I used to frequent; the moderators gave hyper-preferential status to their favorite ops while generally insulting the new people to their faces. After a while, I got sick of being threatened with a ban every few weeks and left the place.

That being said, I kinda like Faub's Myriad Comics idea.

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Postby Ghastly on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:26 pm

Most of the traffic coming to my site from readers comes from Live Journal entries and non-Keen forums and nobody really seems to give a crap that I'm on Keenspace especially now that I'm not even using the keenspace URL anymore.

Even the passionate readers only care about the hosting to the extent that it affects the readability of the comic. There was a lot of negativity flung at Space in the dark days when Keenspace was powered by an enemic hamster in a rusty wheel. That hasn't been so much of an issue anymore (although Merv and Gavzads has been at times).

Most of the comics on Spot brand themselves under their own URL too and apart from the newsbox and wee banner at the top of the strip there's precious little to indicate to the reader that they're on Keenspot.
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Postby Jim North on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:27 pm

ivstudios wrote:That would be nice. But face it, there are way too may web comics out there to read each of them before passing judgment.

Not what I was aiming at at all . . . I'm not saying that everyone should get experience with every single webcomic before ever having an opinion on webcomics in general, I'm saying that they shouldn't have any opinion at all on particular webcomics until they have, like you, at least glanced at them. You don't have to read every webcomic in the world to say that Penny Arcade sucks, for example, but you should at least have read Penny Arcade. ;) Same thing with Keenspace . . . why malign a Keenspace comic just because it's on Keenspace without ever even looking at it?

Joel Fagin wrote:The middle of the bell curve, those who don't like or believe the naysayers but are probably of the opinion that they have a point somewhere in there.

No matter the size the grain of salt they're taking it with, unless they go and check the place out for themselves then they're still just taking someone elses' word for it.
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Postby Nyke on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:35 pm

ivstudios wrote:*glares at people who only do one comic and quit*
*flashes ivstudios*
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Postby Joel Fagin on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:39 pm

Jim North wrote:
Joel Fagin wrote:The middle of the bell curve, those who don't like or believe the naysayers but are probably of the opinion that they have a point somewhere in there.

No matter the size the grain of salt they're taking it with, unless they go and check the place out for themselves then they're still just taking someone elses' word for it.


Of course, but there's nothing wrong with word of mouth. I can't read every comic, watch every movie or read every book in order to have an opinion on it. What entertainment I partake in is determined by first impressions and the opinions of others. There's not much that can be done about it.

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Postby Terotrous on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:40 pm

I'd like to toss out my opinion here and say I think changing the name is a bad idea.
Just incase this perspective has been underepresented here, what with the suggesting new names and all.
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Postby Phalanx on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:52 pm

Whether the name change is a good or bad idea is irrelevant because we will not be making that choice. What we are doing is making sure should the choice be made we at least get a decent sounding name.

So please stop making mountains out of molehills. Please.

I know some of you guys have very strong views about this matter, but I tell you now acting like this won't change anything. Let the Keenspotters be Keenspotters. There are a few bad apples in that bunch but that doesn't mean we have to act like idiots just because a few idiots on 'Spot do.

Be realistic, you and I both know Keenspot Entertainment Ltd. isn't going to change its name just because one popular comic says so. Not even if that popular comic was the most popular comic on Keenspot and it threatened to leave otherwise.

Those of you arguing that Keenspot should be the one to change the name :roll: You do realise that it would be far far harder to change the name of Keenspot, right? Keenspot is the name of the REGISTERED COMPANY as well and that exists outside of the internet. It's not just the name of a bunch of cartoonists and their host, dammit. It's the name of the whole company!

The reason Gav gave for proposing a change is the brand confusion. And Keenspot and Keenspace IS confusing. Not to us because we've been here long enough. But to people new to comics, which in fact is a large porportion of the target audience, it is.

That's good enough a reason for me. If you want to psychoanalyse that and why it constitutes as an insult to try and fix that problem, go ahead.

But on another thread please. This thread is for name suggesting only.

Guys, remember we're not picking a name here. The Fab Four will be the ones picking the name. We're just giving them a list of suggestions.

And Keep In Mind the decision to whether the name change will take place has NOT BEEN DECIDED YET. They may decide it's too much trouble and not go ahead with it and we get to keep Keenspace.

I wouldn't worry about the domain name thing. It's the Fab Four's job. Let them worry about that.
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Postby Ghastly on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:59 pm

I think that if a name change is being proposed that voicing your opinion on wether or not you think our name should be changed is every bit as valuable as voicing your opinion on what you think that name should be changed to.

God knows I'd rather tell Bubba I want no part of his dick rather than chose heads or tails, even if my opinion is going to be ignored anyways.

As long as I have a voice, even if it is ignored, I will always choose to employ it to speak of what I believe in.
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Postby Phalanx on Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:22 pm

Ghastly wrote:As long as I have a voice, even if it is ignored, I will always choose to employ it to speak of what I believe in.


Personally I'm more of the 'action speaks louder than words' type. I prefer to be making the best of things and doing something constructive as opposed to just talking.

But that's just me.

Just as speaking up in opposition is just like you, Ghastly.

In the end, we two individuals do not speak for everyone else. It's up to everyone else to decide how they react and what they want to do when something like this happens.
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Postby Ghastly on Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:35 pm

Saddly though, there is very little action that can be taken online other than using your voice.

But that's probably for the best as not everyone would enjoy my extra tentacled goodness if it reached through their monitor for them.
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Postby Phalanx on Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:50 pm

Ghastly wrote:Saddly though, there is very little action that can be taken online other than using your voice.


*thinks of online banking, Amazon.com, Ebay*

Nah, that'd derail the topic.
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