If you could rename Keenspace, what would you rename it as?

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Re: If you could rename Keenspace, what would you rename it

Postby Ghastly on Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:16 am

Phalanx wrote:So people are stupid and can't read. But I hear this problem has been worrying the management for quite some time, and the thing about the Keenspace sampler minicomic is but one example of this. HOWEVER, there has been some talk of changing the names of the two Keens. To be more specific: officially renaming Keenspace to something less confusing.


Spotters have been bitching for this for years now.

Basically the real reason is to try to disassociate themselves from the stench of Keenspace. It's just another way to further ghettoize the Spacers.

Since there are more Keenspacers than Keenspotters and more Keenspacers rely upon the ****.keenspace.com URL than Spotters rely upon the ****.keenspot.com URL it would make more sense if Spotters really want to not be confused with Spacers if they just changed the name of Keenspot.

As for why readers confuse Keenspace with Keenspot it's simple. There's no difference between the two from the point of view of the reader. Take the top 50 comics on Keenspace and compair them to the top 50 comics on Keenspot and there's very little discrepancy in terms of quality.

Most Spot comics have their own URLs anyways. I wouldn't be surprised if most readers think Sinfest is an independent (and to be honest I'm surprised Tats hasn't gone independent).

Nope, this is nothing but a "Let's make Keenspacers feel like even less a bunch of artists" ragfest on behalf of some very bitchy spotters who think they're god's gift to comicdom.

Screw 'em I say. If they really want to disassociate themselves from us lowly Spacers, let them change their damned name.
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Postby Evil Jamie! on Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:30 am

Well that just takes the wind right out of my name-game sails. :P
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Postby Jim North on Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:36 am

I agree wholeheartedly with Sir Ghastly here. Really, it would be a ton less work for everyone involved for 'Spot to change their name. I'd bet that not a single one of 'em or the people who link to them would have to change their links since, as stated above, they rarely if ever use their *.keenspot.com addresses. We should really be coming up with new names for them, not for us. ;)

But speaking of the proposed new names for Keenspace . . . I, like a lot of other folks here, like "Inkspace", but . . . well, isn't it a bit discriminatory? Are you folks really prepared to deal with the flood of newbies that'll choke up these forums with a hundred threads, all asking "OMG 1s 1t ok 2 maek mi comix 1n PENSIL?!?!?!?! 1 dont nkow how 2 1NK!!!11" :P

Me, I'm all for "Graphics Space", and then later switching to "Slip Space", then "Drunk Space". If our name is going to cause confusion, let's try to spread that confusion as widely as possible! :D
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Postby Mercury Hat on Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:38 am

Ghastly wrote:Stuff


Actually I had considered this but for some reason didn't make a post on it. I'm feeling kinda bullied over this. I mean, it's ultimately Chris & co.'s decision but really, if Spot wants to distance themselves from Space, let them do it on their own.

Think about it, the forums are only a handful of all the comic artists we've got on Space whereas, judging by what I've seen in the Spot forums, the 50-or-so artists that make up the site post semi-regularly. It'd be easier to get in contact with all of them to let them know what's happening rather than getting in contact with all of us.
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Postby Vorticus on Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:58 am

Regardless of who is doing the name changing, it's still fun to suggest names. I really don't see the 'Spotters looking down on us, but then I don't frequent their forums either.
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Postby McDuffies on Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:13 am

Joel Fagin wrote:1) Deliberate misspellings, such as Komic, look cheap and possibly childish. A "K" misspelling also imply Russianness, which is not really a bad thing per se but is a ridiculously overused cliche thanks to cold war America.

I agree. Plus, and K*****space is still too similar to Keenspot.
So I liked InkSpace and OpenSpace and the one with cat that phalanx suggested.

As for Ghastly's comment, although I agree that it's be more convenient to change Spot, we all know that is not gonna happen. But other than that, I think the change of name can only help us. Being less related to Spot, gives us more oportunity to develope our own, gistinguishable brand. And if some spotters think that it's a good idea for a totally different reason, well, then everyone is happy.
Although I gotta mention that to me, that rivalry between Spot and Space and "spotters look down to spacers" or "spacers hate spotters" is really an old story and it does not apply anymore. After all, structure of spotters has changed greatly in last year.

So, my suggestions?

inspired by keenbook:
PixelComics
or
Pixelcomics Space
or something like that.

Oposed to independent comics:
Dependent Comics
or for short:
Dy comics

And, of course, now, a real suggestions:
There'sAComicInMySpace
There'sASpaceInMyLizard
There'sASpaceInMyBathroom
There'sABathroomInMyComic
There'sALizardInMyGraphicNovel
etc etc
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Postby Warren on Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:14 am

PupkinSpace!

*hides*
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Postby Hartchamber on Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:49 am

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Postby KittyKatBlack on Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:17 pm

KiwiSpace (instant mascot :D)
PatchworkPencils
DailyRoutine (Theme: Newspaper titled "Daily Routine")

I can't think of anything else really. I was going to suggest "InkwellComics" but Inkwell.com is taken by a software company.
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Postby Faub on Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:21 pm

Brain dump:

A name like "Ten Thousand Voices" would be descriptive but it's difficult to say without sounding pretentious. On the other hand, "10k Comics" sounds cheap. Inkspace is good because it's easy to say, it's neutral and best of all it doesn't conflict with the brand name.

Interestingly, "myriad" is an archaic form of "ten thousand."

"Myriad Comics" does sound like a large publishing house. Not bad but I would want to have some printing and distribution services if I was part of this group.

"Webcomics International" sounds corporate and sterile.

"There's a Comic in my Lizard" is cool. TACIML doesn't pronounce very well but I bet you could get a domain for it.

- Artspace
- Storyspace
- Aces and Kings (dictionary.com had "ace" as a synonym to "keen")
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- 4WX (4th Wall Broken)
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Postby Ghastly on Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:49 pm

mcDuffies wrote:As for Ghastly's comment, although I agree that it's be more convenient to change Spot, we all know that is not gonna happen. But other than that, I think the change of name can only help us.


If by help you mean alienate us further from the Keen family then I suppose.

I just see it as a way of further disenfranchising Spacers from what goes on in Keen. The fact that this name change is being forced upon us by Spotters further supports this.

The negative ramifications of a name change are greater for the Spacers than the Spotter, but a few bitchy Spotters are deciding that Spacers have to bow to their wishes and change. Since Spot would be much less affected by a name change and it's the Spotters who want this differentiation in the first place I say let them change.


Being less related to Spot, gives us more oportunity to develope our own, gistinguishable brand. And if some spotters think that it's a good idea for a totally different reason, well, then everyone is happy.


I for one would not be happy. It doesn't matter what you call us, we're not going to be "distinguishable" from most of Keenspot anyways because the top Keenspace comics are almost identical to the top Keenspot comics in quality anyways.

I just see this as a way of kicking Spacers out of the family and marginalizing us even more than we already are. What's worse is we're not even getting a say in it. Spotters are dictating that we must change our name. We're being given somewhat of a voice in what the name gets changed to but we're not being given a choice wether or not we even want to change our name to begin with.

This is like your 320 lb cellmate Bubba telling you "I'm going to rape you, but I'm empowering you with the choice of wether you want to get raped in the face or raped in the ass, of course I'll still make the final decision on where you get it anyways."

You're still getting an unwanted dick inside you.

Although I gotta mention that to me, that rivalry between Spot and Space and "spotters look down to spacers" or "spacers hate spotters" is really an old story and it does not apply anymore. After all, structure of spotters has changed greatly in last year.


There have indeed been a few changes, but don't kid yourself into thinking that a couple of Spacers promoted up through the ranks have suddenly fixed everything. There's still a lot of anti-Space resentment in Spot.

The name change has nothing to do with a couple of idiots who post Space related messages in the Spot forum. It has everything to do with a few Spot primadonas who feel they are better than us and resent the fact that the average reader sees no difference between the quality of their strip and the quality of any of the more popular strips on Space.

There's still very little difference between your average popular Space strip and your average Spot strip. A great many Spot strips are only read simply because they're able to ride on Tatsuo Ishida's and Michael Poe's fame and talent, feeding off the few adventurous clicks off their sites to expore the rest of Keenspot. Take away Keenspot's promotional power and many of those strips would likely not even be pulling in the numbers of the top 100 here on Space.

Forcing Spacers to change their name isn't going to make anyone suddenly think those Spot strips are now good. The superiority of Spot only exists in the minds of certain egotistical Spotters and Keen has certainly done it's part to foster that attitude.

Forcing Spacers to change our name to stroke the egos of a few bitter, swelled heads on Spot would be the biggest insult Keen has leveled against Spacers yet. Spacers may be the bastard redheaded stepchildren of the Keen family but at least up until now we've been part of that family.
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Postby Skylark King on Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:37 pm

How about Steve? Personally, I'm in the camp of 'there's no need to change it.' but if we're going to rename it why not Steve? It's such a nice name.

People see Steve walking down the street and they say "Hey! Steve!"

Then we get sued by the Brothers Chaps...

Maybe Freddy is a better name...
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Postby Faub on Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:52 pm

Point well taken. However, "Keenspace" will always be a shadow of "Keenspot." Chris Crosby will not allow "Keenspace" to be used because of brand confusion, even if no one on Keenspot is being affected by that usage or needs to do any work on the matter.

Case in point, the Keenspace sampler. It was intended to be a Keenspace promotion tool made freely available for distribution by anyone on Keenspace. Keenspot Entertainment would not be required to do anything on the project except okay the usage of "Keenspace." The worst we could do is get a couple new readers. CC's answer:
http://forums.keenspace.com/viewtopic.php?p=704293#704293

Highly disappointing because it threw a monkey wrench into the gears of this project. We now need to come up with a new premise AND we can't promote Keenspace. Sucks, but we're still going to do it.

If Keenspace had a different name, one that did not cause "brand confusion," we wouldn't be having this problem. At worst I could see Keenspot Entertainment withholding their stamp of approval because we made Keenspace look BETTER than Keenspot. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because they created Keenspace in the first place.

If you're a Spacer and you like the community and you're willing to (and want to) promote other Keenspace comics that you like but suddenly you can't because you can't use the name "Keenspace," what's the point in having the name? Wouldn't be better if we came up with a new flag to fly our comics under? One that wasn't stigmatized? Something we could brand ourselves, promote ourselves and be recognized from without worrying about people complaining?
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Postby IVstudios on Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:15 pm

Ghastly makes some interesting points, but I don't really care one way or the other. I'm not in this for the recognition. I would like to have a popular comic as much as anyone, but it won't change anything about how I do my comic. We could be "Suck-tastic Comics" and I would still host here. Let Spot do whatever the hell it wants.

On a side note, the whole "Spotters looking down on Spacers" sounds an awful lot like how online gamers hate Newbs. :wink:


As for names:
Suck-tastic Comics just kidding
Amateur Hour
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Postby Ghastly on Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:27 pm

faub wrote:
If you're a Spacer and you like the community and you're willing to (and want to) promote other Keenspace comics that you like but suddenly you can't because you can't use the name "Keenspace," what's the point in having the name? Wouldn't be better if we came up with a new flag to fly our comics under? One that wasn't stigmatized? Something we could brand ourselves, promote ourselves and be recognized from without worrying about people complaining?


It would make more sense to me to stop trying to split Keen apart. The arrangement seems painfully simple to me. Keenspace is the place where anyone can host a comic, Keenspot is a special clique that is by invitation only. Any reader should be able to figure that out. Keenspace is even mentioned in the Keenspot FAQ, is it not?

If a couple of people are too stupid to figure that out after all that, well too bad for them. I don't see how that affects any of us.

Both branches of the Keen family should have equal consideration in the operations and decisions of Keen. What we see, instead, is Spotter running roughshod over Spacers and their forcing us to leave the Keen banner is just the latest indication of the hostility Spot directs against Space. Brand confusion is just being used as a smokescreen by some on Spot who get pissy anytime someone doesn't recognize their work as being superior to those of the amatures on Space.

Keen should be working more to promote Space and Spot together. They're happy to do it when it benefits Spot. Keen is always going on about how it hosts more comics than anyone else. Well it doesn't once it takes away Space. It's more than happy to throw in Space's numbers when it comes to inflating Spot's prestige but when it comes to recognizing the accomplishments of Spacers then that's a different matter altogether.

Forcing us Spacers to change our name is a fricken kick in the chops. That's what it is. Changing Space's name affects far more people than changing Spots would so if it was really about brand confustion they'd just change Keenspot's name. This is just Spot's little way of showing all us on Space that we are inferior to them, they're on top, we're on the bottom, if they say "jump" we're supposed to say "how high?" on the way up.

I say screw that crap. If Spot doesn't want to be associated with those of us on Space anymore then let them go change. There's no reason why we should have to change our name just to stroke the egos of a bunch of people who draw comics under the delusion that they're professionals just because they're on Spot.

Keen, as a business, needs to seriously stop dividing it's talent and instead work on exploiting the full potential of all it's artists, Space and Spot. This class division Keen has been encouraging for years is what's harming Keen far more than some moron who thinks Schlock Mercinary is a KeenSpace comic.

I've talked with Spotters about this very issue and the attitudes of many of those advocating the disenfranchisement of Spacers is "We're professionals, you're amatures, suck it up." First of all, there are precious few "professional" webcomics anywhere. Unless your primary source of household income is your webcomic then guess what, you're not a professional. It doesn't mean you're not talented, it doesn't mean you don't produce quality work. It just means you're not a professional. The fact that Keen looks upon us as "professionals" and "amatures" is what causes all the tension in Keen to begin with.

All this pretentious bullshit needs to come to an end and all of us should be working together for the benefit of Keen and each other. Forcefully kicking Space out of the Keen family isn't the way to be doing this.
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Postby MixedMyth on Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:05 pm

I'm not sure how I feel about renaming Keenspace. Mostly because, as mentioned before, I'd worry about referers. Especially with how established Keenspace is.

But if it were to be renamed, may I present...
*dun dun dun*
Blingspace!

What, no takers?
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Postby Taiwanimation on Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:12 pm

Soap Soaperson wrote:
Taiwanimation wrote:Let's name our site after a forumer, we could be VileTerror.com :D

Actually......
....That's not half-bad.
>_>


I suppose the negative connotations of the name are only known to about 50 or so people anyway...


I see Keenspace continuing as a brand for web hosting, however, a different name being used for the comics.
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Postby Nyke on Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:25 pm

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Postby Joel Fagin on Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:35 pm

You guys realise this is actually and opportunity to dump the Keenspace stigma, don't you? I mean, think about it. New name here. New identity. A bit of advertising and a guide sorted by quality so people don't go "Yuk" and leave all over again, and we get a new rep'.

Oh and...

"Voxel" or "Voxels"

(For those of you who are not 3D graphics programmers, a voxel is a 3D pixel - that is, a pixel in space. Could also be used for the sampler.)

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Postby Mercury Hat on Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:44 pm

But Joel, no matter the name there's always going to be a stigma surrounding Keen because there are plenty of people who don't like any webcomics in any sense. In order for Space to break off from any sort of stigma, we'd have to get rid of the offensive (to some), badly drawn, badly written comics and that would only further subdivide the place as a whole.

Keen should pull together instead of apart. House divided yadda yadda and so on.
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