Where to find an artist?

[Bustertheclown]

$150... For something like this?

In a poetically just world? Yes. Absolutely. People have certainly paid much more for much less. However, that's just a ball-park figure thrown out for you when you asked for it. I still say pay within your means, as long as you're paying something. By the by, since the question should come out sooner or later, what would you be willing to pay?

And for those who say it's easy to learn to draw... That's easy for you to say. I practiced drawing for about six years and never noticed any significant improvement.

I could teach ya. Seriously. I guarantee it. My rate is $150 a page.

Constantly using tools to portray ideas on tangible mediums becomes more arduous and continuously elaborate than using similar mediums to create abstract idea using arbitrary symbols and any person, male or female, who agrees to begin such a strenuous adventure must be prepared for partaking in a myriad of chores, tasks, and assignments recommended to them by one who may or may not be professional and experienced at the work of which they do.

As I was reading that sentence, my brain exploded a little bit.

By the way, you still getting work from your local paper?


EDIT:

Aw, screw it. I don't need to be ranting the rant that used to be below. I'm tired. I'm suffering empathy stress. I'm not helping the discussion. I will close with one word, though, so Jeffy Weffy doesn't come off as wierd due to my psychotic episode.

Orgies.

[Jeffy]

orgies...

[Blackaby]

Writing is easier than arting, but if the writing sucks ass, the whole comic will. Boy, I hate that so much.

I found it easy to find part-time artists, but ONLY when I'd already got an artist/co-conspirator who'd started work on it - and she's really awesome. I think that if you talk to an artist, and you're both into the idea, you don't have to pay them - but only if it becomes more of a collaboration than anything else.

We're finding interested parties on deviant art so I agree, try there. It's best when your artist and you have like a common interest/goal etc, mind...

[Escushion]

orgies...

[FinbarReilly]

1) I basically agree with mcDuffies. The major part I disagree is the lack of professionalism in the media, but that's because I know of far too many gifted artists; rather than loking at the many who I feel won't last, I look at the few that make it cool.

As a comics fan from way back, I kow that anyone can put out a comic; it's rare that it's actually interesting to read.

2) I know that any good comic is part art and part writing; it's the nature of the beast. At the same time, not all artists draw and write. It's sort of interesting that writers are told to learn how to draw; you gotta realize on some level that a good part of us became writers precisely because we can't draw (or do other dexterity-based arts, for that matter). Not everyone can draw, just as not everyone can write. The skills may overlap in that they are arts; however, there are enough differences that a great illustrator will not necessarily make even a decent writer, and vice versa.

This is why you hear of teams in the printed comic field; even the famous individuals were backed by teams. However, the webcomic field has more individuals, simply because it's somehow hard to get teams, even pairs, going, especially as a lot of people feel there's a need to be in the same area. They don't; it's the internet, people! Distance is going the way of the dodo.

The obvious advantage to teams is that everyone can focus on their abilities, and bring it fully to bear instead of trying to do everything. You would have thought, being intelligent people, more web artists would have looked at the beginning of print comics, applied what was learned from their mistakes, and made better comics. But I can only hope, right?

FR

[McDuffies]

I practiced drawing for about six years and never noticed any significant improvement.

No worry, I didn't notice any improvement during my first six years of drawing either.
Anyways, drawing classes or even some serious books (artist anathomy rather than those "how to draw marvel style in 24 days" things) do wonders.

[Sincerely]

It's sort of interesting that writers are told to learn how to draw; you gotta realize on some level that a good part of us became writers precisely because we can't draw (or do other dexterity-based arts, for that matter).

I, for one, became a writer because I knew I'd probably never be good enough at drawing to do it professionally, but I continue to draw anyway. I'm a far better artist now than when I started writing and in the last year my art has improved profoundly entirely because of my work on my comic.

Anyone can learn how to do any kind of art with practice and determination. I can show you examples of my writing from when I was ten or fifteen that will make you cringe, and in ten years I'll probably feel the same way about my current skill.

[LibertyCabbage]

The obvious advantage to teams is that everyone can focus on their abilities, and bring it fully to bear instead of trying to do everything. You would have thought, being intelligent people, more web artists would have looked at the beginning of print comics, applied what was learned from their mistakes, and made better comics. But I can only hope, right?

it makes sense for people to team up and focus on their strengths, but there's also a special sense of accomplishment that comes from making a comic by yourself. for a writer, they get to put their words and thoughts into a tangible, visual form, and for artists they get to give their characters personalities and histories. there's also the pleasure of having complete control over your work and making it the way that makes you most content. further, by utlizing your talents that you're weak on, you develop them and gain a stronger overall artistic sense.

i'm not saying that it's better for someone to make their comics alone, but it does have some positive qualities to it.

[McDuffies]

Well, in a way, you must never forger that they are comic writers - not book writers, not screenwriters, nor any other kind of writer. So when we account the author theory, the ideal variant would be that the comic is a product of one man who is funny responsible for all parts of it's creation, specially because those phases of creation can intersect, if needed the author can rewind the process (like when writer is rewriting a script if he decides that the current doesn't work when drawn). In webcomics, people are much more followers of the author theory, even though most of them don't know that. In film, many people are involved out of pure neccesity but in comics, it's for this simple logic: you have people who write better, and people who draw better, so put two heads together. That's a nice idea, but it creates a concept of making comic as a two-part process, with two parts that are almost independent to each other. Sometimes, people will argue whatćs more important: art or writing. But it's not that simple, art and writing can both be good, but the things can simply not click together. Or, one of them can be rather bad, but things still work out. Very important thing is, whether art and writing are compatibile to each other, whether the writer and artist shared the same ideas of what the comic is supposed to be. That's where the idea that they should both be done by one person comes from.

Incidentally, in theory, average person has capabilities to learn how to draw. Of course, not to come to a level of extraordinary drawing (that's where talent kicks in) but good drawing, yes. Many people excuse themselves by a lack of talent, but that's rather a lack of patience.

[Shishio]

In a poetically just world? Yes. Absolutely. People have certainly paid much more for much less. However, that's just a ball-park figure thrown out for you when you asked for it. I still say pay within your means, as long as you're paying something. By the by, since the question should come out sooner or later, what would you be willing to pay?

Well, after learning most people would expect $150 for a single strip, I really shouldn't answer this question as you will all probably think I'm a horrible person, (Not that you would be wrong, but still.) and want to rend me limb from limb...

But honestly, I was hoping I might have a chance of finding someone who might do four strips a month for $40-50/month. Of course, I would also split any money I made off the strip with the artist 50/50, but I don't expect I would ever make any money off of it, so it basically boils down to around $10 a strip. Even I will admit that is a pretty piss poor pay rate, but I was just thinking of finding an amateur artist who could do a decent job that would like to work on something, and would be willing to work for the meager amount I can afford. It's not that I want to cheat anyone, if I could afford to, I would certainly be willing to pay more, but unfortunately, I can't, and to be quite honest, the project isn't worth that much to me. I want to do it enough to spend a little on it, but not a lot.

Anyway...

*Hangs head in shame and hides in bomb shelter.*

[FinbarReilly]

Dude: Negotiation is a good thing. Yoiu can get an artist to agree to just about anything; it just depends on the artist. So don't sweat it...

FR

[Bustertheclown]

Well, after learning most people would expect $150 for a single strip, I really shouldn't answer this question as you will all probably think I'm a horrible person, (Not that you would be wrong, but still.) and want to rend me limb from limb...

Finbar hit it right on the head. You asked, a highball was thrown out as a hypothetical, and it was backed up. I certainly don't believe that "most people" expect to recieve a professional-level page rate, and I certainly think that even less people who know what a professional page rate would be ballsey enough to ask for it. You just have to realize that there are some people around here who both understand the market for these things and value their own time in a way that they feel is of a more "professional" level. And keep in mind that I'm using words like "some". Not "most" not "all". If most people on this particular forum didn't already have projects near and dear to their hearts, there'd be at least a handful of people who'd be willing to go mercenary for what you've got to offer.

I have no doubt in my mind that if you offered ten bucks a strip to an artists for their work, especially in a place like the deviantART Job Offers Forum, you'd get plenty of bites on the offer. I couldn't even begin to try to tell you how many times I've seen artists putting themselves out there, just for the opportunity to work and a little pocket cash. While you're looking around dA, check out some of the basement blue light pricing schemes that artists are giving as rates in the Job Services Forum. I daresay that if you offered ANY sum of money and the promise of steady work, people will jump all over you, in a GOOD way.

So, don't sweat it. Throw out the offer, and see what you get! And good luck finding that artistic soul-mate.

[Shishio]

Hey, I just wanted to thank everyone again for helping me out here.

I have received a decent amount of submissions from some very talented artists. I am actually having a very difficult time deciding who should illustrate the comic.

But anyway, I happened across some links that discuss making money from webcomics that I thought you guys would be interested in.

http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=77002 (See the post by D.J. Coffman.

http://www.yirmumah.net/make_money/

Thanks again, and good luck to all of you in your endeavours.

[FinbarReilly]

Heh. If I could just find a site that dropshipped art supplies, and was free to get into, I'd be a really happy camper...

Interesting links, though...

FR

[Resolve]

What a segway! hahaha!

I just have one thought. Writing / Drawing both come form principle form of art = the process representation, or semblancing of a reality. The main point of each discipline write/draw is to show the audience a representation of the owners reality.

Finbar said something along the lines of "Writing isn't just dialouge." that it's also the setting up of the scene and transition and what not. But honestly, that responsibility lies entirely in the hands of the artist.

Because an artist has to fully render his\her interpretation of the writers intent. The artist of a comic is like a director of a movie. He must constantly check between the original vision and his own. And it will be changed according to either the artist's ability or just because of personal preferance.

A screenplay is very important, but that does not a movie make. lol.

What Digital war was getting at (i think), was his wordless comic didn't require any writing and merely relied on his art, which is true. Becuase War placed the Reality in his head directly onto paper. Bypassing text and language but it still falls along the sme Artistic principle that all artists have. To get the reality in his skull into the skull of others. (gross)

writers do the same thing- art and language both utilize a great deal of different tools and techniques

so comparing language and visual arts is silly.

But were talking about comics- a fusion of both art and language. (Sometimes)

there can be a comic without words, but a comic without pictures i have yet to see.

Honestly in COMICS I reguard artwork higher than writing. Oh it's more than true that bad writing can ruin a comic-- I've ruined countless comics because i was too interested in improving my art.

I only hold artwork higher because of this simple fact = writing that requires the help of visualization automatically loses it's intrinsic intrepretative value.

Imagine a beautiful poem, that had pictures to go a long with it. Could you imagine what those pictures would look like? If it matched the text exactly, how hokey would that be?

To me text in comics is the clarification of the contents of the artwork. Not the other way around.

It's an old kinda thought process, which is more important the director or the writer. Yes without the writer there would be no story, but without the director it would cease to be a movie.

lol...... if you read all the way to the end.

oh btw... hai guys!

[FinbarReilly]

A screenplay is very important, but that does not a movie make. lol.

Yep, however, without that screenplay you can't have a movie. The screenplay provides the skeleton upon which you build your movie. It allows you to plan ahead, know what you need to get it done, and inspires the other artists involved.

In short, if you're going to make a great movie, you need a great script.

That is one of the few immutable laws; you can have a popular or successful movie, based on nothing but the effects and who is on-screen, but it won't be great art if the characters are two-dimensional, the plot holes catch everything, and it just seems as if the scenes were just stitched together.

That's why Hollywood movies almost ALWAYS do better than their European counterparts; the Europeans get so into the visual and controversial elements (sex/violence) that they tend to forget that there needs to be story.

Writing is ALWAYS more important than the art. Writing makes you care about the characters and what will happen to them. It makes you interested in the plot and what will happen. Most fans may not know the writers, but you can bet that the elements they talk about most are what happens in the comic, as opposed to how the comic is drawn.

Put another way: Does anyone not interested in drawing care more about the art than the characters?

War was wrong. Period. Any comic relies on the way characters interact, both with themsleves and their environment. There has to plot development, or the reader won't read much of it. These are not illustrative issues; they are script issues. Without a narrative of some sort, they are just pretty pictures. Not saying that perjoratively, just saying that there is a big difference between ten pictures picked randomly, and ten put into a specific order in order to tell a story.

Now, what interests you more: the ten random pics, or the ten pics in a specific order?

Note: I'm not trying to say that artists suck. Hardly; there are a lot of artists I really respect. Probably tired of writers getting kicked around by people who forget just how important writing is to certain endeavors...

Side Note: Anyone can learn to draw, true; few can do it well.

FR

[Rkolter]

What Digital war was getting at (i think), was his wordless comic didn't require any writing and merely relied on his art, which is true. Becuase War placed the Reality in his head directly onto paper. Bypassing text and language but it still falls along the sme Artistic principle that all artists have. To get the reality in his skull into the skull of others. (gross)

writers do the same thing-

Yup. They're called books.

so comparing language and visual arts is silly.

YES! yes yes yes yes yes...

Drawn art and writing aren't apples and oranges, but they are seperate skills each with their own subset of skills that you must practice to get good. One can not technically be called easier than the other.

The simple answer is that the question is invalid. Not only is writing easier for some and art easier for others, but some subjects lend themselves to writing, or to art. When you start adding in all the variables, it ceases to be a reasonable question.

[Resolve]

A comic is a visual medium. If you reduce a comic to just pictures it's still a comic, whether it's good or not is not up to debate.

If you reduce a comic to just text, it's just that... text.

Character development, plots they are all elements of a comic that has story as it's driving point. Your thinking of a visual novels, spanning pages upon pages.

But a story can exist within a single panel. There are literally hundreds of comics that don't use a single word. It's insulting to belittle their work
because they didn't describe there characters past love intrests with a 5 pages of dialouge.

It's a talent to transcend language not a hinderance. A well done wordless comic does more than tries to tell a story it attempts to capture feeling.


http://www.boltcity.com/copper/copper_0 ... antasy.htm

I'm not bashing on writers, but to ignore the simple fact that comics are visual arts is silly. If you had a comic that could be understood by a sense other than sight, than you probably should turn into a book instead.

[Rkolter]

But Resolve, I wasn't answering a debate on which is more important to a comic.

I was answering the debate on which skill is easier to practice.

I won't argue against art being more important in most comic strips.

But I will argue that the actual skill of writing and the actual skill of drawing cannot be properly compared and the question of which is easier is invalid.

[FinbarReilly]

1) rkolter:

some subjects lend themselves to writing, or to art.

Note the use of art and writing as if they are two seperate entities. THAT is the problem. Writing is art, as is illustration. Hmph. Too many illustrators believe that what a writer does isn't art, and that's so aggravating.

I really think that webcomic illustrators shouldn't be called "artists", as the writer is just as much an artist as the illustrator. Not trying to say that they aren't BOTH artists, it's just that the writer is treated as so much baggage unless he also draws...

Some of you yahoos need to realize that a great writer is just as visual as an illustrator; I need to worry about panel layout, how things will look, and other visuals just as much as the illustrator.

[Yeah, I know that's not what you meant...I'm just using it to prove a point...]

2) Resolve:
a) Yes, you are bashing writers. Stop it.

b) If you remove the narrative, it's just a pretty picture. I do not need words to be a writer; that's (strangely) arguably the most moronic point here. Writing is not always words; there's a lot more to it than just mere dialogue.

Let me put it this way: So if I draw something, all I'm doing is copying what I see? I'm not worried about the Rule of 3, using composition to strengthen the image, the interplay of symbols and reality, or of exagerating details in order to convey an emotion; I'm just worried about drawing a pretty picture? Yeah. Right.

but to ignore the simple fact that comics are visual arts is silly.

I'm not, by any stretch. But to ignore that the narrative elements are important is just as bad.

That is: A comic may be visual, BUT that's only half the picture. Using the movie analogy: How much of the behind the scenes is important? Gaffers, craft services, producers, and drivers aren't visual artists, but they contribute a lot to the finished project.

And a screen-writer is arguably the most important person. Without a script you simply can't have a movie. But how many famous screen-writers can you name that only write?

3)

If you reduce a comic to just text, it's just that... text.

No, it's not. I can still convey the point of the comic without pictures. Talking-head comics prove that handily. And as a good comic comes from a script, it's coming from text in the first place.

---------------------------------------------------

A comic is a mix of visual and written skills, and it's silly to try and seperate them. But if you're interested continuing down this BS road of seperating them, then a good comic cannot exist without good writing, er, narrative flow, plot and character development, and, heh, even dialogue now and then...

FR