I'd definitely be up for it as well. I was unable to get my hands on the Pixels to Paper book, so this sounds great.
Brilliant, I might add.
Keenspace Sampler Minicomic
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Joel Fagin
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One problem with comics is the recycling of the existing audience. Links, fan art, crossovers... This should draw in some newbies. Good idea.
However, you could do a concerted, multi-directional attack. Posters on notice boards, samplers at comic shops, mentions in comic shop newsletters... Whatever can be wrangled.
I have a colour laser printer. They're not that expensive now days (AUS$800 rather than AUS$30,000). I also work at a college if you want me to plaster some things on notice boards.
Of course, I'd be happier about this if I had a comic...
- Joel Fagin
However, you could do a concerted, multi-directional attack. Posters on notice boards, samplers at comic shops, mentions in comic shop newsletters... Whatever can be wrangled.
I have a colour laser printer. They're not that expensive now days (AUS$800 rather than AUS$30,000). I also work at a college if you want me to plaster some things on notice boards.
Of course, I'd be happier about this if I had a comic...
- Joel Fagin
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Faub
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I'll need to email Chris about it anyway just to use the "Keenspace" name. I don't want to do that until
The Keenspace book is kinda what I was thinking about. As for when the new issue comes out, nobody has set a deadline yet. There's a LOT of work to be done before we can do that.
We would need to have hosting, submission guidelines, FAQs, and server side scripts for handling the submissions, voting on the covers.
Oh, in case I didn't mention, the content would have to be PG-PG13 at most because there would be no guarantee what type of audience would see the comic.
Just to paraphrase the reaction from IRC
hard mentioned that my first post sounded like I was in this for the popularity. Well, it's possible to get new readers from this sure, but think about it. If you print 5 books and set them out at the local comic shop, you might pick up a reader or two. That's it. A comic shop is not going to take a pile of ad comics just so you can pick up a dozen readers. This is a long term thing to show that Keenspacers are just as serious as anyone else and they're willing to do for themselves when no one else is available. Besides, it'll be fun to have something that says "look at all these other great comics." I could do with something like that just sitting in the mall drawing.
The Keenspace book is kinda what I was thinking about. As for when the new issue comes out, nobody has set a deadline yet. There's a LOT of work to be done before we can do that.
We would need to have hosting, submission guidelines, FAQs, and server side scripts for handling the submissions, voting on the covers.
Oh, in case I didn't mention, the content would have to be PG-PG13 at most because there would be no guarantee what type of audience would see the comic.
Just to paraphrase the reaction from IRC
hard mentioned that my first post sounded like I was in this for the popularity. Well, it's possible to get new readers from this sure, but think about it. If you print 5 books and set them out at the local comic shop, you might pick up a reader or two. That's it. A comic shop is not going to take a pile of ad comics just so you can pick up a dozen readers. This is a long term thing to show that Keenspacers are just as serious as anyone else and they're willing to do for themselves when no one else is available. Besides, it'll be fun to have something that says "look at all these other great comics." I could do with something like that just sitting in the mall drawing.
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Executor_Arthas
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Faub
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One thing to consider when printing a comic, it's not the price of the hardware that's important. Actually, it's irrelevant whether you spend $200 or $800 for a printer. If the toner's too expensive then you bought junk.
The reason I mentioned the Brother HL-1440 was not because it's a cheap printer. It IS a cheap printer but it also has cheap toner.
Brother TN-460 Black Laser Cartridge is ~$70 for 6000 prints. The 6000 assumes a 5% coverage, though and grayscale comics will have anywhere from 20-60% coverage. Any more and you start getting a shiney, black layer of ink on the page. MOST comics won't have this. (Mine will 8)) so 60% is probably reasonable. Well, 60% uses 12 times as much ink as the cartidge is rated for per page.
The comics we're talking about is 30 pages + cover. With the pages spanned, it amounts to 8 prints + 1 or 2 for the cover depending. Let's assume 15 prints total.
At 5% coverage, the toner cartridge costs about $0.012 per print.
At 20% coverage: $0.047 per print
At 60% coverage: $0.14 per print.
Total cost of a 60% coverage comic: $2.10 For a $3 comic, you've sucked up more than half the price just by printing the thing!
The HP Color Laserjet 1500L requires three separate color cartridges and a black cartridge totallying around $400.
Typically, these aren't rated for more than 3500 prints at 5% coverage.
5% coverage: $0.114 per print.
20% coverage: $0.457 per print.
60% coverage: $1.371 per print.
30 page book: $20.57 just to print the thing.
In other words, you would NEVER want to print a comic with a color laser jet.
Toner for an HP Laserjet 6L is around $60 but is only rated for 2500 prints.
5% coverage: $0.024 per print
20% coverage: $0.096 per print
60% coverage: $0.288 per print
30 page book: $4.32
How twisted is that? You've paid MORE to print the comic than you're selling it for.
I've seriously considered getting my comic printed and the Brother printer offers a better price than ComixPress. This is the reason I mentioned it.
Notice that the cover is being printed with the laser printer. It's B&W. You could print the cover with an ink yet or better yet a photo printer on nicer paper. Then you incur the costs of having two printers for the same job. (You're only printing once with the ink yet, though.)
It's also important to note that toner isn't the only expense involved in printing a comic. There's the print drum in laser printers and the printer hardware itself. There's the paper cost. The cost of the staples AND the stapler. The cost of the trimmer. That's just the print side. You also have to think about how much it cost to buy your pencils, erasers, pens, brushes, graphite sticks, the bag to carry all that, bristol board/paper/etc that you're using. All this goes into figuring the actual cost of that book you printed. If you can make that be less than your cover price then you're ahead by selling the book. Anything more and you've spent money to make yourself look cool.
This is why paper comic distributors sell thousands of comics at a time.
The reason I mentioned the Brother HL-1440 was not because it's a cheap printer. It IS a cheap printer but it also has cheap toner.
Brother TN-460 Black Laser Cartridge is ~$70 for 6000 prints. The 6000 assumes a 5% coverage, though and grayscale comics will have anywhere from 20-60% coverage. Any more and you start getting a shiney, black layer of ink on the page. MOST comics won't have this. (Mine will 8)) so 60% is probably reasonable. Well, 60% uses 12 times as much ink as the cartidge is rated for per page.
The comics we're talking about is 30 pages + cover. With the pages spanned, it amounts to 8 prints + 1 or 2 for the cover depending. Let's assume 15 prints total.
At 5% coverage, the toner cartridge costs about $0.012 per print.
At 20% coverage: $0.047 per print
At 60% coverage: $0.14 per print.
Total cost of a 60% coverage comic: $2.10 For a $3 comic, you've sucked up more than half the price just by printing the thing!
The HP Color Laserjet 1500L requires three separate color cartridges and a black cartridge totallying around $400.
Typically, these aren't rated for more than 3500 prints at 5% coverage.
5% coverage: $0.114 per print.
20% coverage: $0.457 per print.
60% coverage: $1.371 per print.
30 page book: $20.57 just to print the thing.
In other words, you would NEVER want to print a comic with a color laser jet.
Toner for an HP Laserjet 6L is around $60 but is only rated for 2500 prints.
5% coverage: $0.024 per print
20% coverage: $0.096 per print
60% coverage: $0.288 per print
30 page book: $4.32
How twisted is that? You've paid MORE to print the comic than you're selling it for.
I've seriously considered getting my comic printed and the Brother printer offers a better price than ComixPress. This is the reason I mentioned it.
Notice that the cover is being printed with the laser printer. It's B&W. You could print the cover with an ink yet or better yet a photo printer on nicer paper. Then you incur the costs of having two printers for the same job. (You're only printing once with the ink yet, though.)
It's also important to note that toner isn't the only expense involved in printing a comic. There's the print drum in laser printers and the printer hardware itself. There's the paper cost. The cost of the staples AND the stapler. The cost of the trimmer. That's just the print side. You also have to think about how much it cost to buy your pencils, erasers, pens, brushes, graphite sticks, the bag to carry all that, bristol board/paper/etc that you're using. All this goes into figuring the actual cost of that book you printed. If you can make that be less than your cover price then you're ahead by selling the book. Anything more and you've spent money to make yourself look cool.
This is why paper comic distributors sell thousands of comics at a time.
It's so crazy it just might work... 
I like this idea - I'd certainly be interested in participating. Not sure when any cons are coming up in my area (there was one recently, but I missed it), but maybe I could print up a few copies to take to some local comic stores. (I brought a few copies of a Station V3 mini-comic around to those stores on Free Comic Book Day, and that went over pretty well)
I like this idea - I'd certainly be interested in participating. Not sure when any cons are coming up in my area (there was one recently, but I missed it), but maybe I could print up a few copies to take to some local comic stores. (I brought a few copies of a Station V3 mini-comic around to those stores on Free Comic Book Day, and that went over pretty well)
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Coyotzin
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Considering that very few people have work in print-ready format, I'd say it would be all-new stuff, which is where submissions guidelines come in; any given page must have very definite dimensions and resolutions.
Faub was talking about 300dpi and 600dpi, although in my experience 150dpi has worked fine for magazine printing.
Faub was talking about 300dpi and 600dpi, although in my experience 150dpi has worked fine for magazine printing.
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Christwriter
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Yeah, I defenately think I'm in. Especially sence I've been thinking about something like this for a while. 
However, the reason why I asked about a round-robin/scripted book instead of a "look at me" book was the entertainment value of a story is a bit better than thirty pages of "look at me", plus you give people an incentive to buy the next one.
If we're talking about gag comics...that would make the "look at me" work a bit better, though they had better be some fairly good comics to get it to do what you want it to.
HALF of what we're (apparently) trying to do here is get people to pick up the book and look at all the cool comics. The OTHER half is getting them to suggest it to their friends, spread the word of mouth, make people actually want to spend the money on it. The value of an engaging piece of work--as engaging as we can make it--might be better than thirty pages of "look at me".
...though suggesting story-writing via comittee is probably not the smartest thing I've ever suggested in my life.
CW
However, the reason why I asked about a round-robin/scripted book instead of a "look at me" book was the entertainment value of a story is a bit better than thirty pages of "look at me", plus you give people an incentive to buy the next one.
If we're talking about gag comics...that would make the "look at me" work a bit better, though they had better be some fairly good comics to get it to do what you want it to.
HALF of what we're (apparently) trying to do here is get people to pick up the book and look at all the cool comics. The OTHER half is getting them to suggest it to their friends, spread the word of mouth, make people actually want to spend the money on it. The value of an engaging piece of work--as engaging as we can make it--might be better than thirty pages of "look at me".
...though suggesting story-writing via comittee is probably not the smartest thing I've ever suggested in my life.
CW
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Coloring tutorial It's a little like coloring boot camp. Without the boots.
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Joel Fagin
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I recommend against either option. A sampler would be far better because then they'll check online to get more of the same. Each should also be a short, self contained story (or gag).christwriter wrote:1. Would it be a round-robin style story or just a random collection of comics? Or would there be a script we would follow?
2. If it is a round-robin how would we know what to put into the pages?
I didn't intend that you should. The cover on the other hand, needs to be high quality artwork, with professional colouring and in colour if it is to attract roving eyes. If you do want it in greyscale, then you need a very good black and white artist to do it so it looks intended rather than cheap. You, faub, would be ideal.faub wrote:In other words, you would NEVER want to print a comic with a color laser jet.
Failing that, War has done some very dramatic black and white stuff.Even then, some colour in the design - logo, for example - would still be a good thing, and if make a cover that can change colour schemes and you won't run down any given cartiridge!
At the moment, I'd say RPin would be best for the cover design - design, not artwork that is - simply because his design work is so eye catching and dynamic. However, I don't know if he has any experience or knowledge about how to do things like comic covers.
You should also be aware that the order of the samplers makes a difference if printed. You want the people who are flicking through to see the impressive stuff. In general terms, the less impressive should be at the back although the last story should be impressive as well. Having said that, they also have to alternate as you go through the pages. It's kind of a juggling act.
This is all from a pure advertising perspective, BTW, and should be balanced against other considerations.
Oh, one last idea. CDs are cheaper than print, yes? If you have a pile of comics and a pile of CDs, then the comics can attract the customers and some will walk off with CDs instead. Heck, have just one display comic if you like!
- Joel Fagin
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Taiwanimation
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Distro logistics: use Bittorrent or other P2P software, hey, this is what they're supposed to be used for.
Joel's got a good idea with one display comic and CDs. Though it still seems odd to take webcomics, an online medium, and dumb down to paper technology.
Have you looked into commercial printing businesses? For large quantities it is cheaper. Distribution is another problem.
[plug]
Student Art Publishing's September/October 2004 issue is currently in progress and we're looking for advertisers. We're doing 7,000 copies this year, though distribution will be 90% within Berkeley.
[/plug]
Joel's got a good idea with one display comic and CDs. Though it still seems odd to take webcomics, an online medium, and dumb down to paper technology.
Have you looked into commercial printing businesses? For large quantities it is cheaper. Distribution is another problem.
[plug]
Student Art Publishing's September/October 2004 issue is currently in progress and we're looking for advertisers. We're doing 7,000 copies this year, though distribution will be 90% within Berkeley.
[/plug]
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Birdie
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what if you made the format smaller? Like instead of everybody getting a page, we made something a little more like the Sunday comics. like fit 3-4 comics a page depending on size, I don't know what I would do with a whole page except make some really weird splash page, but if we just submitted a simple strip in our layout, or smaller if needed, then organize it to fit into something like 5-6 pages instead of 30. Then we still have something tangible to read, but also cheaper to print and distribute? It could be like a Keenzine?
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Rkolter
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How many of these keenbooks/keenzines are we looking at printing in a run? There are businesses that might do the printing cheaper if given the digital images.
I mean, sure it's literally cash out of someone's pocket, but then again, so is printing the thing at home; it's just less visible cash because your toner will die out early, your drum will go, etcetera.
I mean, sure it's literally cash out of someone's pocket, but then again, so is printing the thing at home; it's just less visible cash because your toner will die out early, your drum will go, etcetera.
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If you wanted to do that you could. I think the entire point of this is creating a print comic that people are free to do what the want with.
You could print it off at home and give it to your friends.
You could get 100 printed off at a proper printers and sell them at a convention.
You could burn them to CDs and throw them at people.
If you really wanted to, you could instruct a bunch of industrial robots to spray them on car roofs.
We make the comic. You do with it what you will.
You could print it off at home and give it to your friends.
You could get 100 printed off at a proper printers and sell them at a convention.
You could burn them to CDs and throw them at people.
If you really wanted to, you could instruct a bunch of industrial robots to spray them on car roofs.
We make the comic. You do with it what you will.
This sounds so wicked cool - if you want to, you can count me in. Then, on the other hand, I currently have no printer, and once I get one, it'll probably be a Bubblejet (because my mother has some strange fear of the Lasers 
). Would it be okay to participate even if you can't print (quality) images?
). Would it be okay to participate even if you can't print (quality) images?Warning: This poster regularly makes unintentionally sexual posts. Or at least "unintentional" is what she claims...
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McDuffies
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FAUB, don't startle me like that! From the subject of the thread, I thought you were offered to spot, but insane as you are, you rejected the offer or something like that.
I know you'd do it!
Anyway, back on subject: Cool idea, but, I'm positive that I couldn't pull it here. Serbia is a dry land for comics in general, not to mention that selling goes so slowly that publisher waits for a year or so to cover his expences. I could try, but not much chance...
I know you'd do it!
Anyway, back on subject: Cool idea, but, I'm positive that I couldn't pull it here. Serbia is a dry land for comics in general, not to mention that selling goes so slowly that publisher waits for a year or so to cover his expences. I could try, but not much chance...
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Taiwanimation
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