Defend Anime Art!!

[Okie]

Remember the whole "comic books are for kids" debacle.

I prefer to remember the "comic books are destroying our youth" debacle. Senate Subcommittee hearings are fun

http://www.crimeboss.com/history03-1.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8580/kefauver.html
"Unlike literal illustration, the cartoon employs exaggerated measurements and actions and values, and presents not only truth but universal, recognizable, appreciable truth. Universal truth is transformed by the cartoon into universal appeal, and thus the success of the cartoon is accounted for" - some guy testifying at the 1954 Senate Subcommittee hearings on Juvenile Delinquency

therefore... Tentacle Rape becomes Universal Truth with Universal Appeal because of the medium of Anime...
I think the big issue is one that may be coming. Next to live action, the second largest motion picture pornography medium is anime. Anime porn may be the inevitable, legal future of child porn.

They passed a law called the Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996, that made it illegal to possess or distribute anything that may depict minors engaged in sexual acts, including those created without children. In 2002, the Supreme Court struck it down for many reasons.

The usual basis for judging Child Pornography was Ferber, but Ferber depended on child pornography being "intrinsically related" to the sexual abuse of children, and its existence could harm the child later in life.

"The CPPA prohibits speech that records no crime and creates no victims by its production. Virtual child pornography is not 'intrinsically related' to the sexual abuse of children. While the Government asserts that the images can lead to actual instances of child abuse, the causal link is contingent and indirect. The harm does not necessarily follow from the speech, but depends upon some unquantified potential for subsequent criminal acts... [Ferber] did not hold that child pornography is by definition without value. It recognized some works in this category might have significant value."

"The contention that the CPPA is necessary because pedophiles may use virtual child pornography to seduce children runs afoul of of the principle that speech within the rights of adults to hear may not be silenced completely in an attempt to shield children from it... The argument that virtual child pornography whets pedophiles' appetites and encourages them to engage in illegal conduct is unavailing because the mere tendency of speech to encourage unlawful acts is not a sufficient reason for banning it... absent some showing of a direct connection between the speech and the imminent illegal conduct... The argument that eliminating the market for pornography produced using real children necessitates a prohibition on virtual images as well is somewhat implausible because few pornographers would risk prosecution for abusing real children if fictional, computerized images would suffice... Finally the First Amendment is turned upside down by the argument that, because it is difficult to distinguish between images made using real children and those produced by computer imaging, both kinds of images must be prohibited.

It also ignored artistic merit, which is required as a consideration when deeming a work obscene, The Miller Test. "A work's artistic merit does not depend on the presence of a single explicit scene." Redeeming artistic value has to be evaluated as a whole. "Where the scene is part of the narrative, the work itself does not for this reason become obscene, even though the scene in isolation might be offensive." (So If hardcore eel sex showed up once in Roughies, it couldn't be found obscene You have been warned.)

I was bored, so I looked it up.

If Anime is so cool, why does Manga/Anime turn live-action?
Cutie Honey Live-Action Trailer: http://www.warnerbros.co.jp/broadband/index.html
Casshern: http://www.casshern.com/
or Avalon:
http://www.avalon-movie.com/index.asp

And, truth to tell, there aren't many good fantasy shows out there.

飛刀又見飛刀 looks really cool, but I can only find parts, not whole episodes.

Parker Posey starring in the upcoming Frankenstein tv series, where apparently Dr. Frankenstein moved to Seattle, and his monster helps out the police force... how can that not be good fantasy???

But it's like with french movies or comics, which are not very known or well distributed in USA sa USA people sometimes don't even know europeans make films at all.

And when we do see them, we don't see the originals. We remake their films... or change them:

Here is a site working to make sure that When Asian films are imported to the United States, they aren't changed: STOP DISNEY FROM BUTCHERING ASIAN FILM! http://alliance.hellninjacommando.net/faq.htm

[MixedMyth]

I think what causes Anime and Manga to be derided so often is because it is a very simplified art form to the american eye.

I wouldn't really say that anime and manga are essentially more simplified. Certainly, there are examples of it. But getting back to the diversity in anime, there are also many examples of intense complexity. Look at RG Veda, for example- link link.
I will agree, though, that much of the anime popularized in U.S. mainstream society is a simplistic style- DBZ, Pokemon, etc.

[Somesuch]

I agree manga and anime should not be prosecuted as an art form.

However, maybe it *IS* about time people started branching off into more styles in the fantasy and science fiction genre. Some of the manga and anime art is excellent. Other art in that style is just crap, let's face it--in fact I'd say that most of it is not very good.

The best manga-style art I've seen so far is in the web comic, Eversummer Eve, which also has an excellent plot.

Non-manga art that I really like, though, appears in FAUB and Wild Hunt.

I'll read manga-style comics, and watch anime-style shows, if I like the plot and the art isn't utterly hideous with no sign of improvement. There's nothing wrong with the style. The only problem I have is with the people who insist that it's the BEST style, and those who only do that style because their favorite animated show is in anime style (and I really get tired of kittypeople and bishies and all that jazz). True, there are many variations within those styles, but a lot of it begins to meld together and look exactly the same. I can't help but think what many artists who do only mediocre manga and anime art could manage if they tried their hands at some other style--perhaps something brand-new.

I don't believe there *is* a best style to do a comic or animated show in, or if there is, I haven't seen it yet.

That said, to those who utterly loathe manga and anime and find no redeeming qualities at all in it, well, go draw your own style, or just don't look at it. Comics are still art, and you're free to decide what you do and do not look at.

[Jops]

Anime is persecuted? Is this an American thing?

Guess so, i never heard such comments as "anime is easy" or "it's for kids" in here. I've hear people saying the don't like the huge eyes, but they were really few.

[MixedMyth]

It might be.

See, anime here has had a sudden surge in population. It's been around at the periphery for a while, but it's just skyrocketed recently. Particularly with the introduction of certain kid's shows. This introduces people to the style, and they seek out more, bringing other stuff over. People become enamoured with it, and sometimes take it to extremes.

The reaction against anime is in large part a reaction against this sudden surge in popularity, figuring it to be just another fad. I've also met quite a few people who are fed up with the otaku counterculture because they keep meeting the snobbish, obsessed types.

[Yeahduff]

In truth, all animation is to a degree overlooked as kidstuff over in the states. Even the Simpsons, the most popular adult cartoon probably ever, depended, especially at its outset, on the child audience. Things like PowerPuff Girls and Fairly OddParents and SpongeBob Squarepants are NOT for children, at least not initially. But that's where all the cross marketing potential comes from, not to mention the audience with fewer inhibitions about watching "silly cartoons." So all have been dumbdown in an attempt to go for the kids who will in turn buy toys and books and happy meals and whatever else.

Anime isn't quite persecuted, but it is a step lower than animation. And thanks to all us nerds, animation of all forms is gaining respect round here. Take the recent inclusion of a Best Animated Feature Length Film Oscar a year or two ago. Of course, when Final Fantasy and Metropolis, two worthy Japanese efforts from the inaugural year of the award, are passed over for subpar fair like IceAge and Jimmy Neutron, you see maybe the scales aren't completely balanced between imports and domestics, but as McDuff has said, that's nothing new in the world of live action.

But do you wonder why all these animated shows or comic books make the jump to the big screen, they're all live action? SpiderMan? Hulk? Scooby Doo? The Flintstones? Dragon Ball? Neo Genesis Evangelion? Do these seem like films that should work as live action? Have people seen this work before? Do they realize the freeing capability of beautifully drawn animation? I read film critic Mark Caro's review of the recent Sinbad movie, and he lead with the question, "Why was this animated?" To me, it would seem reasonable for a swashbuckling pirate movie that obviously would have to otherwise be shot expensively on a set involving lots of water, where giant monsters, implausible action sequences, and a scene at the waterfall at the edge of the world for god's sake, to be animated, but maybe that's just me. But the point it that this person's opinion is shared with many people: There has to be a reason for it to be animated, it can't just be done for it's own sake; and obviously these reasons have to include lavish musical touches and happy anthropomorphic animals, if you consider his remark, "Humans aren't compelling animated."

In summary (cuz I haven't gone long enough), in these here parts, drawings, be they in a gallery or in a comic book or blended together to give the illusion of motion on a screen, be they American, Japanese, Korean, French, what have you, are not to be taken seriously.

[RPin]

Okie makes the best posts ever.

By the way, anime itself isn't good or bad. There is no such place in anime to be good or bad, it's only in our heads.

That's a human flaw. We tend to see our choices as the right ones, and call wrong everything that differs from our tastes.

Many anime fans I know don't respect people who like american comics.

[Sippan]

Oh you think you have problems. 9 out of 10 Swedes will say "Anime? What's that? Oh, you mean manga. That's the Pok

[KittyKatBlack]

The thing about Anime that sets it apart is not so much the artistic style but the content intself. A lot of the plots and stories in anime are very psycological, and a lot of people don't think of that when they look at animation. Even Don Bluth type stuff, even though much richer and mature in it's excecution is still rather simple in it's concepts. I think that whoever mentioned the grey area nature of anime over the black and white good and evil nature of more western animation is a big factor as to why it's not considered in the same class as 'regular' animation. This also prominant in the fact that, well, to be honest, the Japanese couldn't make decent live-action films to save their lives. I think it's because their ethnicity doesn't fit well with the ideas they come up with. This is why their animation is so highly regarded that it's in it's own 'class' as far as animation goes. Anime is basicly the equilivlent to Hollywood live action films.

The main factors I've seen that turn people away from anime are that the voices are generally higher pitched than Americans are used to (This is also common in 'kids cartoons') which doesn't really help. And yes, this is an aquired taste. Some people like the voices, some people can't stand them. Another thing is the big eyes. I personally don't see how they look bad in any sence (Since most emotion is conveyed through the eyes, and anime is mostly all about emotion.) but some people don't like them. And finally, the way some movement is done (generally the way the mouths move.) turns people off apparently.

I guess it goes to say that if you don't like anime for any of those reasons, or others of your own, that's fine. I don't think this is trying to prove how great anime is. I think this is more or less just asking those people that don't like it to not downgrade it into some lower form of entertainment. We have a huge problem with censorship here in the US, which really scars the way anime is presented here. It might not be much of a problem in other countries, but here, most of the things that make anime worth watching is edited for content. What's left is a half hour episode of 'fluff' with the script re-written and simplfied to make up for the lost content.

Some rules of American TV in regards to animation: No blood. No nudity or sexual situations. No swearing. No direct death threats. No gore. No blatant homosexuality.

There's probably more, but this is what I've seen common ammong series' aired on American Television. The entire script to Gundam Wing was rewritten by cartoon network. All instances of 'I will kill you' were changed to, 'I will destroy you.' and as you can tell, with all the things I've listed, there's not much left of any decent anime series worth showing. I like to point out something I saw in an episode of G.I. Joe I once saw. A guy was on the back of a helecoptor about 2 feet from the blades. Said helecopter crashes into a giant glass building, which collapses affter the impact. The guy crawls out of the rubble with 'dirt marks' on him, and that's it. It's insane. Anyway, this rant is getting pretty long, so I'll sum it up as just that Anime has a lot more to it than most people (At least here in the US) give it credit for, and I think it's high time someone got around to pointing that out.

[Ron, the mad one]

Where do I got for the anti-anime protest?

[Brockway]

Final Fantasy and Metropolis, two worthy Japanese efforts from the inaugural year of the award, are passed over for subpar fair like IceAge and Jimmy Neutron,

Final Fantasy was a horrible movie. It deserved technical awards, but the movie itself sucked. Never saw Metropolis, so I can't comment. But the 2 american ones were better than Final Fantasy by far.

The main factors I've seen that turn people away from anime are that the voices are generally higher pitched than Americans are used to

The funny thing about that is, Japanese voice actors typically have deeper voices than their dubbed counterparts. Plus dubb actors have to match their voice to the animation, and not the other way around, so the delivery is compressed to fit.

[ZOMBIE USER 16849]

Many anime fans I know don't respect people who like american comics.

Exactly - it bugs me when people bash American art/animation just because it isn't Japanese. Someone I know didn't know that the Chipmunk movie (where they took that hotair balloon all over the world) was done by an All-Japanese team of animators, but when she found out, she said "and that's the way it SHOULD be."

Anime fans sometimes take it to extremes, where anything drawn by an American hand sucks; but if that American hand is drawing anime, then suddenly they're wonderful! Geez.

Of course, I know I've heard non-anime fans say the same thing about anime fans. But very few - I'd hardly say Anime is widely persecuted.

[Waf]

It is kinda funny here it is the exact opposite.

There are all sorts of people who are all "Family Guy Sucks, Futurama Sucks" they are stupid comedy. Unlike epics like DBZ. Personally I find that senseless cause I would related DBZ more to a soap opera than an epic on the lines of both a soap opera and DBZ if you missed a month worth of episodes, you could pick it back up and absolutely noting would be different.

Now there are some good anime shows. There hasn't been anything that has been "My favorite show ever!" but there are some I would watch and enjoy.

I know my comic style has a small amount of Chibi influence. But by the very same token it is my style. I didn't take Goko and stick him in my comic and call myself a genius.

[Thingschange]

I like drawn manga but a lot of anime leaves me cold.

Let's face it, I just don't like the motion in hand-drawn animation very much... generally it's jerky and doesn't quite look right. Anime often has this fault in spades.

I saw "The lion king" a few times this last week, and the animation in that was fantastic... right down to the point of imitating camera techniques with a drawn picture, which I find hilariously funny.

Then again Disney is absolutely obsessive about their animation, they spend huge budgets on them and go to a ridiculous amount of effort to draw all 24 frames per second. Obviously this is harder for a small-budget anime film to duplicate.

Likewise computer animation almost always looks "real" in terms of its motion though it falls down in other areas.

Perhaps I expect the unrealistic, but I just find that manga doesn't look "as good" because of its movement. Also the amount of static shots used in manga just makes me imagine the artist saying "well I'll just use this one picture for the next five minutes while this dialogue is happening, no-one will notice".

Sure you can justify this with the whole "it's part of their style" excuse but to me it just seems plain lazy and it's the most irritating thing about watching anime.

[Brockway]

Perhaps I expect the unrealistic, but I just find that manga doesn't look "as good" because of its movement. Also the amount of static shots used in manga just makes me imagine the artist saying "well I'll just use this one picture for the next five minutes while this dialogue is happening, no-one will notice". Sure you can justify this with the whole "it's part of their style" excuse but to me it just seems plain lazy and it's the most irritating thing about watching anime.

Actually, thats mostly because of budget constraints. To get the episodes out on time and under budget, they have to use those cheats. I've been alot more aware of them lately, and it does ruin it a bit. Seeing the frame not chage except for the mouths, having mouths hidden by hands, panning across a static scene, stuff like that really starts to get obvious once you start looking for it.

Let's face it, I just don't like the motion in hand-drawn animation very much... generally it's jerky and doesn't quite look right. Anime often has this fault in spades.

I believe most anime is done digitally now. Its not really hand drawn much. At least according to Excel Saga's anime in America episode. Disney animation is hand drawn though, and most people don't consider it jerky.

[Thingschange]

stuff like that really starts to get obvious once you start looking for it.

Downside to studying film... I'm constantly aware of cuts, framing etc on a subconcious level. It can be a real pain sometimes since movies are designed so that you're not supposed to spot the technical details. Ruins a lot of the simple enjoyment you get from watching them.

Disney animation is hand drawn though, and most people don't consider it jerky.

Mmm, as I said, Walt Disney was an anal retentive bastard who insisted on all his cartoons being drawn with 24 frames per second and can afford the best artists. From a sheerly technical point of view Disney cartoons are some of the best made in the world. I'll refrain from commenting on their content though

I believe most anime is done digitally now

Oh, okay. I haven't watched much anime lately to be honest. Maybe my opinion of it is based on out of date information from the Neon Genesis Evangelion era.

[Brockway]

Mmm, as I said, Walt Disney was an anal retentive bastard

The correct term is nazi...

[Christwriter]

Anime porn may be the inevitable, legal future of child porn.

If that happens, I'm going to turn activist and start trying to apply child porn laws to animation.

Now before you shoot me, let me explain why.

Child molestation is a fantasy crime...along the same lines as rape. Sex is a highly fantastic crime in the literal sence of the word. The brain, not the vagina, clitoris, or penis, is the main sexual organ. What you put into the brain, what you fantasize about, what you day-dream about is what comes out in your sexual life.

In other words, Garbage IN, Garbage OUT.

If you look at sex, you want to do sex. If you look at porn, you want to do the acts depected in the porn. For that matter, if you have a slight desire to go Kiteboarding in the middle of the next Hurricane and you watch videos about people doing just that, you're gonna want to do it. You are feeding a part of you with the information that you stick in your brain.

If you take a man (or woman) who is already struggling with deviant desires towards a child (There is no question of freedom of sexual choice. A four-year-old is NOT old enough to choose to have sex no matter what someone says, just as a woman who does not give her permission did not have a consensual act with the attacker.) and start giving him child pornography, he's going to start to want it. Eventually, he'll want it so bad that there is no price to great to have this fantasy realized just once...only it cannot be just once, but over and over again.

Which is why child porn is outlawed.

But the only difference between animated child porn and the real thing is...no children are hurt. The monster is still being fed his food. He's still getting hungrier and hungrier with no way to fully sate his hunger without the next step up...eventually, to a real child.

In other words, law-free animated child porn could be the proverbial "Loaded Gun" but instead of giving it to the child, it's being given to the REAL bad guys.

CW

[Brockway]

The monster is still being fed his food. He's still getting hungrier and hungrier

I find it quite sexist that you would automatically assume that all pedophiles are male. There is a large percentage of documented female offenders out there, its not just guys (or the japanese.)

[Somesuch]

Given the gradual disappearance of more realistic styles and indeed some of the American styles (Teen Titans is essentially anime, as I understand it), it seems to me as if manga and anime are not the ones in danger.

I am perfectly fine with manga and anime. I'm just beginning to think it's a little ridiculous to proclaim that it's persecuted when I, living in the U.S., have yet to see it be thought so ill of--even the children's shows, which are, by the way, absurdly popular to the point which I cannot think any number of older people could matter if they tried to persecute it.

I enjoy web comics like Mixed Myth, Eversummer Eve, Wings of Change, and maybe some others that are basically done in a manga or manga-influenced style. However, have you noticed how hard it is to find web comics in the fantasy genre--and indeed in many other genres-- that are not manga-style in their art?

Let's also look at the cartoons. An increasing number of cartoons have been popping onto television that are not American-style, but rather anime, whether done by Japanese or other artists.

If manga and anime are to be popular, I say to let them--I even like some of the art. It won't change what I draw, which is most certainly not manga or anime, although it's possible I've been influenced by it without realizing it. I'd like to note that as artists, even those of you who are sticklers for manga and anime, you really should support other styles as well, even those you don't really like. For instance, I loathe the styles of cartoons like Catdog and Spongebob, but I'm not going to tell the artists they can't draw that way.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, why can't we just all get along?

On a side note, I also genuinely hope that child pornography does NOT become legalized, even if it is animated. It's morally wrong to send that message to people, and I think that people can be influenced by things like that.