What to avoid in webcomics?

Paul Escobar · Post by **Paul Escobar** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:54 am

Lady Yate-xel wrote:ComicSans is like the mullet of fonts - everyone says it's horrible, but they really can't say anything about it as to why other than "WELL, JEEZ, LOOK AT IT."

Comic Sans is considered ugly for a reason: The spacing betwen the letters is off. From an entirely typographic point of view, that's simply bad design. A font being so widely used is less of a problem - there are several overused fonts, like Helvetica or Verdana, but no matter what you think of them, they are properly made when it comes to their default kerning and tracking. Comic Sans is not. Even if you were the first person to use it, it'd still look awful. And the only reason it gets used so much is that it's one of the default fonts that comes with Windows, and the only one of those that look vaguely handwritten. Or rather, trying and failing to look handwritten.

As Mercury Hat pointed out, there are plenty of good, free fonts out there, you just have to look for them. It's worth it.

jekkal wrote:
NakedElf wrote:
fesworks wrote:* Starting a webcomic without researching multiple webcomics of different genres, styles, communities. Expand your knowledge about the culture and community you are wanting to enter.
Webcomics are not a 'culture' and creating a webcomic does not mean that you are joining a 'community'. They're just an artform.
... good luck getting anywhere on DeviantArt or any other artsy-fartsy site without expecting to get a faceful of community.

You could argue all day about whether webcomics are a subculture, but I would agree that BECOMING a webcomic artist with any presumptions of success requires delving into the general geek subculture at minimum.

If you put a comic on a website, you've made a webcomic. There's no requirement to hang on forums or join collective sites or anything. That many people choose to do so is another matter.

You're only part of a community or subculture if you actively participate in it, and it's perfectly possible to make webcomics, or novels, or paintings, or whatever and never associate with other people doing the same. There are many communities centered around various artforms, but they are not encompassing everyone working in that artform by far. There are many examples of succesful writers or painters who never associated with their colleagues or bothered checking up on any developments within their chosen field; they just did their thing and were good at it.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:12 am

What the guy above said.

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:15 am

NakedElf wrote:Being part of comic-related communities doesn't get me anywhere *near* as many referrals as, say, simply making my comic easy for people to find via Google.

Is there any chance you will write any tutorials on search engine optimization? I would really, really, really like to harness the power of Google. Sadly, the best I could do was change my site's title to "The Webcomic For Those Who Mourn Sexy Losers and Ghastly's Comic" in an utterly shameless attempt to ride their coattails. (But it's not working.)

RemusShepherd · Post by **RemusShepherd** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:57 am

Mercury Hat wrote:
I needed a readable font with lower case letters. There are only two free fonts that meet that description -- Comic Sans and Mighty Zeo, and I do not like MZ.
http://blambot.com/font_ashcan.shtml
http://dafont.com/lacartoonerie.font
http://dafont.com/komika-text.font
http://dafont.com/i-hate-comic-sans.font
http://dafont.com/kronika.font
http://dafont.com/gosmick-sans.font
http://dafont.com/fawn-script.font
http://www.1001fonts.com/font_details.html?font_id=2678
http://www.1001fonts.com/font_details.html?font_id=1386
http://www.1001fonts.com/font_details.html?font_id=1224

And that's after about 10 minutes, there's more out there.

Let me rephrase -- I could only find two free fonts that met that description in February 2005. Did DaFont even exist two years ago?

Thanks, Merc, those are helpful.

I still don't understand the hatred of Comic Sans, but I'll avoid using it for any future projects, if for no other reason than to avoid the prejudice against it.

Post by **Mercury Hat** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:41 am

Yeah, I was using Komika Text in 2004 for my previous comic and got it from dafont, later on that year I switched to Steel City Comic.

Dr Legostar · Post by **Dr Legostar** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:18 am

i like comic sans, i don't really know why, i had it set as my font on instant messenger for a long time, i personally just like the look of it. Though i'm not going to use it in any future comic projects, but changing the font in legostar now would be a bit silly, and changing it ALL would be a giant pain in the ass.

Lady Yate-xel · Post by **Lady Yate-xel** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:37 am

Well, awesome. Now I know why I don't like ComicSans.

About ten years ago, a friend of mine drew a picture (in MSPaint, no less) of Sailor Moon, and put ComicSans in her little speech bubble.

She turned to me, proudly, and said, "Look! I even found exactly the same font they use in the comics!" I think it was then that I knew that I was not reading something from a quality conscious company. (It should have hit me earlier, really.)

Amazing, the stigma that font has.

Fesworks · Post by **Fesworks** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:44 am

Comic Sans shows that you didn't try. And just went with the simple and quick on on your computer. I'm not going to boycott comics that use it... but its a just font to hate

anyway, there could be worse fonts.

and Naked Elf makes a lot of good points, but webcomics ARE are culture... or subculture. Kinda sorta... like Computer geeks, or book nerds, things like that... and they can be broken down into smaller sub-cultures or "idea centric cummunities"

maybe "culture" is the wrong word, but I think you might know what I was getting at.

Dr Legostar · Post by **Dr Legostar** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:56 am

fesworks wrote:Comic Sans shows that you didn't try. And just went with the simple and quick on on your computer.

honestly that kinda fits with my whole reasoning for using legos in the first place, the effort necessary to draw things just wasn't there, so basically my whole comic is an example of me being lazy.

Yeahduff · Post by **Yeahduff** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:06 am

RemusShepherd wrote: I still don't understand the hatred of Comic Sans, but I'll avoid using it for any future projects, if for no other reason than to avoid the prejudice against it.

Really? Not sure how this thread can make it any clearer. It's just very poorly designed.

Fesworks · Post by **Fesworks** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:11 am

legostargalactica wrote:
fesworks wrote:Comic Sans shows that you didn't try. And just went with the simple and quick on on your computer.
honestly that kinda fits with my whole reasoning for using legos in the first place, the effort necessary to draw things just wasn't there, so basically my whole comic is an example of me being lazy.

well, I kinda disagree. .. well, actually, you know YOU best, but to me, I LOVED playing with legos and building this and that and playing out lives with characters with my brother (we made antire towns with people, it was awesome!)

So I see comice like yours as fun little nostagia things, but there can also be a lot of work behi9nf it as well... more than you would think sometimes I'm sure... but still, if you want to think of it as lazy, its not as lazy as picking a font off of your computer than going to find a new one.

The Neko · Post by **The Neko** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:17 am

Shishio wrote:
NakedElf wrote:Being part of comic-related communities doesn't get me anywhere *near* as many referrals as, say, simply making my comic easy for people to find via Google.
Is there any chance you will write any tutorials on search engine optimization? I would really, really, really like to harness the power of Google. Sadly, the best I could do was change my site's title to "The Webcomic For Those Who Mourn Sexy Losers and Ghastly's Comic" in an utterly shameless attempt to ride their coattails. (But it's not working.)

Assuming you're not joking about not knowing how to optimize a site for search engines, I'd say that you should look into metatags.

The Neko · Post by **The Neko** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:18 am

legostargalactica wrote:i like comic sans, i don't really know why, i had it set as my font on instant messenger for a long time, i personally just like the look of it. Though i'm not going to use it in any future comic projects, but changing the font in legostar now would be a bit silly, and changing it ALL would be a giant pain in the ass.

Well, you did change how you made the word balloons. Changing the font would be just like another artistic leap. It happens to drawn comics all the time.

Dr Legostar · Post by **Dr Legostar** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:24 am

fesworks wrote:
legostargalactica wrote:
fesworks wrote:Comic Sans shows that you didn't try. And just went with the simple and quick on on your computer.
honestly that kinda fits with my whole reasoning for using legos in the first place, the effort necessary to draw things just wasn't there, so basically my whole comic is an example of me being lazy.
well, I kinda disagree. .. well, actually, you know YOU best, but to me, I LOVED playing with legos and building this and that and playing out lives with characters with my brother (we made antire towns with people, it was awesome!)

So I see comice like yours as fun little nostagia things, but there can also be a lot of work behi9nf it as well... more than you would think sometimes I'm sure... but still, if you want to think of it as lazy, its not as lazy as picking a font off of your computer than going to find a new one.

measure the time it takes me to make comics and measure the time it takes most people to draw them, there's a significant difference, one which I was very aware of and serves me well.

The Neko wrote:Well, you did change how you made the word balloons. Changing the font would be just like another artistic leap. It happens to drawn comics all the time.

I knew you were gonna say that. And honestly you're probably right, i think i may just have to find a new font when I start year six of legostar, just as i did the word balloons with year five.

given the style of my comic is there any font anyone would recommend?

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:37 am

The Neko wrote:Assuming you're not joking about not knowing how to optimize a site for search engines, I'd say that you should look into metatags.

I know about Meta Tags, but other posts she's made on the subject have led me to believe that there is more to it than that, and that fully optimizing a site for a search engine requires technological knowledge I lack.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:57 pm

measure the time it takes me to make comics and measure the time it takes most people to draw them, there's a significant difference, one which I was very aware of and serves me well.

Yeah, you were like, "I have a few hours free this sunday, I'll use them to make my comic for the next month or so, nyah nyah..."

I know about Meta Tags, but other posts she's made on the subject have led me to believe that there is more to it than that, and that fully optimizing a site for a search engine requires technological knowledge I lack.

The others include very tedious things like making a few hundreds of fake pages linking to you on free servers and such stuff. I personally think that it's not worth it and that trying to get some of bigger comics to link you or paying for adds is much more worthwhile.

NakedElf · Post by **NakedElf** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:29 pm

Shishio wrote:
NakedElf wrote:Being part of comic-related communities doesn't get me anywhere *near* as many referrals as, say, simply making my comic easy for people to find via Google.
Is there any chance you will write any tutorials on search engine optimization? I would really, really, really like to harness the power of Google. Sadly, the best I could do was change my site's title to "The Webcomic For Those Who Mourn Sexy Losers and Ghastly's Comic" in an utterly shameless attempt to ride their coattails. (But it's not working.)

I hardly think I'm optimized... I think I just got lucky by choosing a name/subject which was fairly distinctive. There aren't a ton of people searching for naked elves, but there also aren't a ton of people making producing naked elves, either, and a lot of the high google hits are for things like <a href="http://www.nakedelf.com/">a deceased blog</a>, <a href="http://nakedelfmusic.com/">a band</a>, <a href="http://www.ratebeer.com/Beer/tr%F6egs-n ... 364/">some beer</a>, and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/What-You-Say-Nake ... 5526190">a book</a>. So I figured anyone who is looking for actual naked elves would probably be more interested in my comic than those things, and went with a somewhat silly but useful title. I've never made it to the number 1 slot, but number 1 is a listing of 'naked elf' pages, and *they* link to me, so it works out.

I still haven't figured out how to get my images to show up in an image search. :(

fesworks wrote:and Naked Elf makes a lot of good points, but webcomics ARE are culture... or subculture. Kinda sorta... like Computer geeks, or book nerds, things like that... and they can be broken down into smaller sub-cultures or "idea centric communities"

maybe "culture" is the wrong word, but I think you might know what I was getting at.

Computer geeks and book nerds are people. Comics generally aren't people. :)

People <i>have</i> culture, which we can transmit through objects by giving them 'cultural meanings', but these are highly arbitrary. For example, a Christmas tree is just a dead tree in someone's living room. It doesn't 'mean' anything until someone gives it a meaning.

I believe the term you want is "cultural product". A comic is a cultural product from the style of the art to the language it's written in. It transmits and encodes cultural knowledge (say, 'All Your Base' jokes.) And a specific comic can be significant to a specific cultural group (Penny Arcade for video gamers.)

However, this does not mean that the *creator* of the comic is automatically a member of whatever groups happen to be reading their comic, nor are all comics products of the same culture. To draw an example from a different medium, "The Lord of the Rings" is culturally significant for a lot of SCA/Ren Faire-types. However, writing "The Lord of the Rings" didn't make Tolkien a member of the SCA. In fact, as far as I've gathered, Tolkien actually wouldn't have liked a fair percentage of his fans.

C.w. · Post by **C.w.** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:22 pm

Shishio wrote:
The Neko wrote:Assuming you're not joking about not knowing how to optimize a site for search engines, I'd say that you should look into metatags.
I know about Meta Tags, but other posts she's made on the subject have led me to believe that there is more to it than that, and that fully optimizing a site for a search engine requires technological knowledge I lack.

Oh gosh, there is a lot more to it than meta tags. So much more.

Unless you're trying to spam your way to the top of the rankings, your best bets are:

1) Adding transcriptons of the comic (on the same page as the comic - no OhNoRobot.)
2) Using clean HTML and CSS - every image has an alt tag, important stuff in headings, no table soup.
3) Getting links. (Which is actually more important than 1 and 2 combined, but it's much harder to get.)

I think i've said this before, but one time i wrote half an article on this, then lost it. Maybe when i get back home in a few weeks i'll write it.

Vulpeslibertas · Post by **Vulpeslibertas** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:00 pm

What Naked Elf said about Google searches.

I'm the #1 search result for "pronounce kitsune" because, amazingly, none of the previous #1's actually had a phonetic breakdown of the word.

So do something unique and do it well.

I think the comic transcription idea is a good one too. The only text from my comic that apears in Google is the written stuff. I don't know why Google doesn't search jpegs for words.

I wonder if the Google engine is designed to read <alt> text for images and that's what it bases it's image searches off of?

RemusShepherd · Post by **RemusShepherd** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:02 pm

fesworks wrote:Comic Sans shows that you didn't try. And just went with the simple and quick on on your computer.

That might be true of most comics that use it, but not all. I agonized over what font to use, and downloaded dozens of new fonts. In fact the first 8 pages of IP were originally done in Mighty Zeo. I couldn't stand it, switched over and redid the text on those first eight.

yeahduff wrote:
RemusShepherd wrote: I still don't understand the hatred of Comic Sans, but I'll avoid using it for any future projects, if for no other reason than to avoid the prejudice against it.
Really? Not sure how this thread can make it any clearer. It's just very poorly designed.

I hear the technical complaints, but I just personally can't tell. It's done yeoman's work for me. But because of all the prejudice, I'd recommend everyone staying far, far away.