Manga vs Everyone Else

[The Neko]

What I usually did was just went to the bookstore and got the original comics, but then again, most half-retarded anime fans (from my personal interactions, that means 90% of them) try to learn from watching subtitled anime, rather than formal education, so reading originals isn't always an option. There some really good series out there like "Katteni Kaizou".

As far as series selection, I tend to go for series intended to only last 13 episodes such as Satoshi Kon's "Paranoia Agent". Others are intended to be stretched out as long as the viewers/readers can stand.

[ShineDog]

yay! you all agree with me!

ghastly says in... lots of words what i couldnt have said in lots and lots.

[Col]

Hm... everyone seems pretty set in their ways of hating any comics with Marvel, DC, or Image in the corner. Nevertheless, I'll say what I wanna say just to say it.

I read those kinds of comics exclusively. Don't read any manga at all. The stories just don't do it for me, personally. It seems like they're all the same, and that's a generalization, but it's how I see it when I try to read them.

I've been collecting comic books since I was six. Mom and Dad would get me a few random comics that would keep me entertained while we went on our road trips, and that worked just fine. But I just kept finding myself getting more and more sucked into these bright, colorful pages of larger than life characters that had these amazing abilities and powers that no one really had. Great stuff to a kid who was watching He-Man, Transformers, GI Joe, and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! So I started convincing my parents to take me to the local comic shop more and more, and I found myself becoming engrossed in the stories and artwork. Primarily the artwork, really. It's what got me into drawing more than I already was. Anyhow, since those early days of getting comics from my parents, I now have a collection of over 100,000 comics or more. You've got your X-Men comics, your Spider-Man comics, Daredevil, etc, etc. I was, and still am into the big name comics, as well as the smaller stuff. All that time where I was growing up was during the infamous 90's that Ghastly spoke of. Thankfully, it was while I was growing up, so I didn't know better at the time just how crappy some of those comics were, as well as the fact that "Oh gee, these could be worth a lot of money if I get every holo foil cover they crank out." I was just a fan, and that's what I am now.

And that's probably why a lot of people can't get into it once they're past junior high. They're too old. They can't get lost in the wonder of being a superhero, because it's too silly to a 14 year old. So in all likelihood, there's nothing I can say to convince any of you otherwise.

But I will say this: Yes, there are a lot of titles for one character. For a few years, Marvel got better about it, only having two titles out for X-Men, and two for Spider-Man. Unfortunately, ever since the success of the movies, they've gotten confident again, and yeah, there's about twenty for X-Men, and five-eight for Spider-Man. But guess what? You don't have to get all the titles! I only get one Spider-Man series, and pay no attention to the others. Doesn't affect what I'm reading at all. Sure, there's the possibility of a crossover in the future, but in all honesty, they haven't had a major crossover for Spider-man or X-Men or anything else in a long time. And by major crossover, I mean a crossover that requires you to get X number of other comics in order to know what's going on. In the respect, they have improved vastly.

In the X-Men series, there are about three main titles. Each one has a distinct style of storytelling and art. "X-Men" is similar to the story-telling style of the 90's. "Ultimate X-Men" is a separate type of story all together, a reimagining of the characters and their origins for more recent times. "Astonishing X-Men" is a more realistic, smarter, and fantastically drawn series that is meant for the older readers who want a good story that pays dues to past history and carries the torch on with respect and the best intentions for the characters and the story. You don't want something marketed to the masses? Read the "Astonishing" one. Great stuff, trust me. It's my favorite read every month. But the point is that those three series have almost no effect on each other most of the time. I have no idea what's going on in "X-men", and that doesn't effect my enjoyment of "Astonishing" or "Ultimate" one bit. So if your problem is that there are too many titles, relax, it's okay to only buy one.

And "Astonishing X-Men" is a good example of the type of comics that are being written today for Marvel and DC. Writers are starting to make the stories more realistic, with smarter dialogue that you could actually imagine a person saying, and more interesting scenarios than your typical "bad guy wants to take over the world" stories. It feels like they've finally started growing up more, and it's really refreshing at times for people my age (twenties) and older.

Another point: These comics are starting to be told as one time stories, and once those stories are done, the companies usually collect them into a nice, neat trade paperback for only ten bucks, which helps save you money and time. You lose the advertisements, and the waiting between each issue for the rest of the story. You can have it all right there when you buy it. You only like comics written by Neil Gaiman? And he wrote a story in Fantastic Four, but you don't want to have to buy all those three dollar comics? Wait until the trade comes out, and you can get the full story with nothing before or after it to clutter it up. Do these stories end with everything wrapped up? Sometimes no. They still want to try to make people come back for more. But you can get a satisfying story out of it to make you feel complete without worry about what comes next. Ghastly, if you don't like what they did with the symbiote costume, then pay it no attention. You're right, that's a neat ending. Leave it at that. You can keep reading Spider-man, and if there's a part with Venom coming up, ignore it! Don't get the comics he's in! You can find out what happened online somewhere so you can still keep up.

There are times where yes, the companies really do mess up their characters. But hey, give 'em a year or two, and it's as if it never happened! Clone Saga? What Clone Saga? If the story's not good enough, it won't stick around in continuity. This may bug some people, but for others, eh, that works.

Oh, quick side thing, Spawn always been written by Todd McFarlane. He did pass on the drawing duties, but all the writing is him for the most part.

Okay, moving on, I want to point everyone to a company that doesn't get as much attention as it should: Image Comics. These guys have come a long way since their beginning with the big muscled guys with gigantic guns and the women with big boobs, no brains, and even less clothing. Image is a company that respects the independent artist, and releases all kinds of books that are nothing like what Marvel and DC are doing. You've got the super-hero comics still, but also horror comics, mystery comics, science fiction, fantasy, and even some real life comics. These books are creator owned, so if the creator stops writing 'em, they stop publishing 'em. Sometimes they're written with an end in mind, and other times they keep going. But it's always the same writer. And Image collects the stories into trades as well, so you can still save money. Heck, Image published Flight, a graphic novel featuring short stories by webcomic artists only. It's a fantastic book, and I highly recommend it to all of you.

And if anything, look for more independent comics. Slice-of-life comics are fantastic pieces of literature, and excellent works of art, such as "Blankets" by Craig Thompson or "Sketchbook Diaries" by James Kochalka. Independent comics are a treasure trove waiting to be discovered by more people.

Anyhow, if you're still with me, my points are these: Superhero comics ain't that bad, you just have to have an openmind. It helps if you were interested in them at an early age, but it's possible to like 'em now. You just have to find what you'll like.

They've also improved VASTLY since the nineties. There are still the stupid ones out there, that's a given. But the good ones are SOOOO good. You wouldn't believe how far they've come. The writing's smarter, and the art is a lot better too. More varieties of styles are present now, with your manga influences and Jim Lee influences still present. But the ones that are really different, like Carlos Pacheco or John Cassaday are getting their dues deservedly paid.

There's more than superheroes, and there's more than manga. Independent comics, and comics of other genres (horror, mystery, etc) are out there too, and they're pretty good reads too.

Comics come in collected editions now. Huge ones too. Look at those two shelves at the bookstore by the mangas that are comics other than mangas. Yeah, you see those? That's what I'm talking about!

Just had to throw my take on it, seeing as I'm the only one who still reads this kind of stuff. Gotta stand up for what I like, right?

[Genesis_13]

*Tentatively steps into the ring*

If I want to buy a story, it's gonna have a beginning, it's also going to have a visible END in sight. That's why I'm edging away from series such as Naruto, Gundam, Macross - they're way too long for the story to be enjoyable to me. I've bought only three anime series, all of them have a start, and an end, except for Hellsing, and the second season comes when the manga actually ends.

I'll admit I like Naruto and Inuyasha to some extent, and I especially enjoyed them both when they were just starting out. In any case, my interest in both started declining after the millionth episode/manga. I finally realized about a month ago that they were both "I'm-stronger-than-thou" series. Gah! >< Now I just sort of pretend that they end where I want them to end. So, I can understand teh hate of the neverending series.

For example, I was highly annoyed by the ending of one series that I love because it could easily have gone on for twice its length and still have a storyline. Then a friend commented to me that if it did that, it could turn into a Dragonball/Z/GT/etc. Yea, I shut up after that.

I don't go for perfect things, I go for above standards. As much as I praise how awesome Berserk is, it isn't perfect by any means. The animation isn't all that great and suffers from the typical 'still-frames' like Inuyasha. Which is a huge shock since the season is only 26 episodes.

Ironically, some of the best overall animation I've seen in an anime (other than short-short-series like FLCL) was in one that was 51 episodes long.

[Ghastly]

The big problem with superhero comics for an old timer such as myself is, I've seen it all done before.

The plotlines of the current books are pretty much the same thing I was reading as a wee lad back in the 70s. Every few years someone resets the continuity, revamps the details to fit with the time and basically retells the same story other artists told before him. Now you might not be getting the same Spiderman stories all the time but you will get a Spiderman story that is pretty much a retold old Dare Devil story, or a retold Superman story, etc. etc.

The superhero market expects its readers to outgrow it and thus recycles itself a hell of a lot. It mostly relies on nothing ever changing permanently. They'll go through crisis, they'll go through strife. But somewhere down the line, maybe a year, maybe two a reset button is going to be pressed and the whole thing goes back to same-as-it-ever-was.

Manga, well a lot of the stuff you see in north america is toy-commercial crap and I can't stand it either. But the good stuff that does get through I enjoy because it's not something I haven't already read 1000 times before. Many of their series rely upon the fact that they are finite. There is a begining, a middle, and most importantly a conclusion. Now I have no doubt that a lot of themes get recycled in Japan too and there are undoubtedly many Japanese comic fans who have the same complaints about their country's products as I do about north american superhero comics. That's okay. It doesn't matter to me much that the Japanese have recycled their comics because they're new to me.

One of the things I really loved about the movie The Increadables apart from the fact that it was a brilliant and intelligent send up of the superhero genre was the fact that it dealt with something you almost never see dealt with in a superhero comic. Getting older.

Superheros have to be kept maintained in a form of suspended animation. Spiderman was a highschool teenager in 1965. I believe he went to college in 1969 (I have the issue somewhere). After that he pretty much stayed a young 20 something. He got married, but was still a young 20 something. Spiderman should be in his 50s right now (I think he was 15 or 16 in his first comic which would make him a year or two younger than my mom (who had me in 1965 at the tender age of 17)). He's not though. He's still a young 20 something. That's just not interesting after awhile. It's fine when you're a kid. It's even fine when you're a young 20 something, but when you grow up and beyond your favorite superhero there's not much there for you. Petey is worried about finding time to study for a college exam while you're worried about a lump your doctor found during your prostate exam. You're just in two different places in life now and you find you just don't have that much in common anymore.

Apart from a few brilliant graphic novels and short series such as the Batman: The Dark Knight books you don't really see any real change in superheros. That's why I loved The Increadables even though the franchise is new it has this feel that these are characters you've always known and known in their prime. They're no longer there anymore and they're trying to deal with that. It was real, and it was interesting, and it had a depth to it that transcended the gags, spoofs, and action sequences (I was quite surprised to see that on the merits of a superhero action flick The Increadables above average there too).

Now you grew up with comics in the 90s. I grew up with comics in the 70s. I was in my 20s in the 80s and you're probably in your 20s now. Don't be too surprised if you start feeling the same way I felt in the mid 80s towards the superhero comics. Give it a few years and by your 30s at latest you'll begin to feel "you know, I'm going somewhere in life but Spiderman isn't". You might start to visit your old friend less and less as you begin to find you have less and less in common.

[Bustertheclown]

The thing is, there is mainstream crap in all genres and styles, so there's not really anything to debate. American superhero comics have crap. "Live action" TV series have crap. It's not just manga and anime. The only reason we talk about this stuff is because anime is becoming more and more popular. It's "the thing" to talk about.

I sorely miss the days when I liked anime and no one else knew what the hell it was. Now you can't appreciate the art style, if you like it it must be because it's popular. Wtf? >.< I hate that so much. Really, some people might try to blame Pokemon or DBZ, but anime didn't hit it big until the last three or four years. Pokemon was nearly seven years ago now (holy crap, that makes me feel old).
It just sucks. I guess that's why, even though I enjoy manga (art and reading, two of my favorite things, you can't lose there) I'm no longer that enthusiastic about anime. I never got a chance to get sick of watching it, I got so sick of hearing about it.

You know, the more I think about it, look back upon it, and do research into it, I find that 1998 is absolutely the year to blame all of this on. It was a year in which some sort of crazy synergistic mayhem came about and created a wormhole which spewed forth the all the elements that came together to form the state we find ourselves within today. There were all sorts of factors in 1998 that came about to form this American interest in anime.

I'm still going to stick to my earlier argument that Pokemon played a pretty huge role in this. It wasn't the only animation factor to speak of, but I honestly believe that it was probably the most powerful. I doubt anyone really wants to know my specific theories on Pokemon's role in this, though, so I'll spare you. I won't spare you a metaphor, though.

Think of the stylistic trend in America toward the signature anime/manga elements as a snowball. Eight years ago, back in late 1997 and early 1998, a little tiny snowball was packed up and kicked down a very tall hill. As is the nature of snowballs that are packed up and kicked down very tall hills, it took awhile for it to gain in mass and velocity, but even though it might have been too small, too slow, or too far away to be noticed by many back in 1998, it did grow as it rolled downhill over the years. Also, as is the way with people who like to live at the bottom of very tall hills, not many will notice snowballs until they are as large as cruise ships, a hundred yards away, and barrelling at them at 300 miles an hour.

I think you're half right when you say that anime didn't really hit big until three or four years ago. I'd say that, given the heavy rotation of anime imports on in programming like Kids' WB and CN's Toonami by 1998, anime gained quite a bit of popularity over the course of one year. Of course, the kids who were nine or ten in 1998 weren't really at the age where they felt the compulsion to show off their mad art skills to anyone but their moms. Three of four years ago, the same kids who were ten in 1998 were becoming teenagers, and were beginning to draw and post their artwork online.

As was the case when I was a teenager, and I drew upon American comic and cartoon influences of my childhood, the teenagers who became teenagers a few years ago drew upon the cartoon influences of their childhoods. For me, growing up in the 80's it was the muscle heads and giant robots of GI Joe, Transformers, He-Man, and Voltron. For kids growing up in the late 90's, it was Pokemon, DigiMon, Ronin Warriors, Sailor Moon, and DragonBall Z. For the kids growing up now, the anime/manga influences will be even more prevalent, because the trend has maintained a hold and been steadily gaining in strength over the past eight years.

[Godoftarot]

I think part of the problem was that until anime came around, they'd stopped showing a lot of good, vintage cartoons on T.V. And a lot of American cartoons had become rather lame. I know I didn't watch 'em. I stopped watching Nikelodeon long before anyone else my age did. I hadn't been watching much of anything for awhile until Sailor Moon. And when I went to watch Sailor Moon, I somehow managed to strike it on the first episode, so I couldn't stop watching then (I never have that sort of luck). Besides, I was only like 12. I watched DBZ for a short while, but quickly became bored with the one battle over fifty episodes thing.
All the anime on T.V. is not a good thing, I think. Aside from the fact that the dub voices are always the most annoying thing on the planet, it's turning more and more people into anime fans. And I suppose I should maybe be grateful, because that means manga gets over here, too. But I still miss the days when people didn't pay so much attention to it.

[LAGtheNoggin]

Ya'know, is it me, or is manga and anime really not all that big in Great Britain compared to the America?

I mean, everyone's heard of the style around here, everyone knows what it is, but the only person that's ever specifically said "Hey, an artist! Can you draw anime?" was American. All I hear from America and drawing is their annoyance or love with anime, it's strange, here I just get a "Mmm, yup, that's anime" and that's it. Anime seriously hasn't bugged me or anyone I know on this isle. It's odd, you can see the artistic influences (I know several British manga artists) but there doesn't appear to be any of the mass appeal... yet.

[Odd1]

Heh. Practically nobody knows what manga or anime is over here. Sure, we get Sailor Moon and DBZ, but it doesn't really raise any eyebrows. I know a few girls who are obsessed with cosplay, a few guys who try to draw manga style. But generally if you ask somebody what anime/manga is, the best answer you will get is "That's like, Pokemon, right?"

[Mr.Bob]

Yeah... I live in a manga-free environment, and I'm not particurlarly drawn to the style, but I'd give a story a go if it was good.


*feels like he contributed*

[Phalanx]

What I want to see more of something that is NEITHER American comic book style NOR manga style.

I want something different. Something new, something fresh. Variety in comicdom.

I want individual styles. Something like how Yeahduff's stuff is distinct from say... Faub's stuff or Zachary Parker's stuff... or Mr. Bob's stuff or Jon Allison's work.

I echo Digital War here. I look to webcomics for what I can't get in a comic store. It's not that I won't read what's in a comic store, but if you can come up with something distinct, you're probably guaranteed to get my attention more than you would with a perfectly drawn manga or AS comic.

[Odd1]

What I want to see more of something that is NEITHER American comic book style NOR manga style.

I want something different. Something new, something fresh.

Aye, I second this motion. Sometimes a person will tell me my drawings are manga. I never really see it as a compliment, seeing as that's not my intention to begin with. It's not that I dislike manga, it's just I strive to make something else.

(EDIT: Holy crap! 1600 posts. I'm feeling ancient already and I've only been back a day).

[Warren]

What I want to see more of something that is NEITHER American comic book style NOR manga style.

I want something different. Something new, something fresh. Variety in comicdom.

Let the revolution begin!

[LAGtheNoggin]

Welcome back oh Odd1 Liz! Nice to see you comic'ing again. How's the animation uni going?


In other news, almost everything somewhat simplified seems to look manga these days. I think it's just the plain old progression from cartoons of yore, which is basically what the Japanese did. So, ya'know, the fact things look similar and often confused is because they both started from the same starting point, and, as always, are interacting with each other.

As for innovation, I don't read webcomics just to see new styles, I'm more interested in stories; if the style fits, and if it's well executed. And anywho, to me every style is new (especially online), everyone draws individually and has a different take on the world.

[Odd1]

Welcome back oh Odd1 Liz! Nice to see you comic'ing again. How's the animation uni going?

Art school is treatin' me mighty fine! I'm currently under a huge workload though, preparing for my 1st semester presentation. My portfolio isn't quite where I want it and I've got numerous art history reports due next week. Urgh.

It's nice to be comickin again!! Your rats project looks cool. What about that videogame idea, are you still working on that too?

[LAGtheNoggin]

Good to hear. Heh, thanks on Rats, that's probably the last comic in the series though, it was only meant as a storyboard to some music.

The computer game mod idea's still there, burnin' away. But alas, no chance of getting any work done on it. I've got a portfolio and a kick in the testicles (otherwise known as chemistry) to come first... Maybe some day in the future? Maybe. Maybe...

What was this thread about again?

[Col]

Ya'know, is it me, or is manga and anime really not all that big in Great Britain compared to the America?

Dang it, now I really wish I lived there! You guys aren't obsessed with manga, and you've got really good music!

Ghastly: Yeah, I figured that our age differences would play a factor in our interpretations of this. And you could be right. Maybe when I get older and into my thirties, the desire to read these comics will pass. Maybe I'll start seeing stories rehashed. Hard to say if that will actually be, but I'll get back to you when I'm there.

I completely agree on The Incredibles. That was such a refreshing super-hero movie. And even though they were all new characters, we didn't have to be bogged down by origin stories or anything like that. They just went straight to the action, knowing it wasn't important to the audience how these characters got their powers. That's always been my one gripe with most comic based films: too much attention to the origins, not enough super-hero action. Definitely one of the best movies out there.

One other thing, and this is simply to keep you informed and to allow me to be a complete comic book geek: Peter Parker's not in college anymore. He was freelancing for the Daily Bugle for a ton of years, and in the last three years, he quit that and is now teaching high school. Personally, I think they're writing him as a guy in his late twenties, maybe even early thirties. Doubt they'll go any farther though.

[Wp]

Dang it, now I really wish I lived there! You guys aren't obsessed with manga, and you've got really good music!

Jeez, it's not like we're strapping you down and taping your eyelids open and making you watch Yu-Gi-Oh. Your attitude makes me think that you dislike anime because of the people who like it and the popularity of it rather than the content itself.

[The Zebu]

Only popular anime is stupid because it is mainstream and usually poorly dubbed. People who like popular anime are equally stupid.

[Bustertheclown]

What I want to see more of something that is NEITHER American comic book style NOR manga style.

I want something different. Something new, something fresh. Variety in comicdom.

I want individual styles. Something like how Yeahduff's stuff is distinct from say... Faub's stuff or Zachary Parker's stuff... or Mr. Bob's stuff or Jon Allison's work.

I echo Digital War here. I look to webcomics for what I can't get in a comic store. It's not that I won't read what's in a comic store, but if you can come up with something distinct, you're probably guaranteed to get my attention more than you would with a perfectly drawn manga or AS comic.

If people can't find the new, different or definitive in comic shops, I would have to say that either their local comic shops are terrible, or they aren't looking nearly hard enough. I certainly haven't had much of a problem finding work that piques my interest every time I walk into a comic shop, and I have very particular tastes when it comes to my comic reading material.

Also, I have to say straight out that I don't look to webcomics for what I can't get in a comic store, and it's because I haven't found much online that doesn't have a more capable, disciplined and appealing counterpart on comic store shelves. To date, I've only found two webcomics that I can honestly say I love. Number One is Ghastly's Ghastly Comic. That strip is so popular for a reason, and it ain't because of the boobs.

Number Two was 1/0, by Mason "Tailsteak" Williams. (another Keenspace comic) I can honestly say that I've not seen many fourth wall breakers in print. I can also honestly say that if there were, I wouldn't be seeking them out. I can't say I like self-narrators or audience addressors, so the standard fourth wall breaker in any media really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't like Ferris Bueller for that reason. I didn't like Malcom in the Middle for that reason. I didn't like a great many webcomics for that reason. However, 1/0 never really addressed the audience, it just addressed Tailsteak himself. Since it was written in that manner, with creator-as-character who still lives in the real world, it presented a lot of intriguing storytelling devices.

Of course, what really mattered wasn't fourth wall break, it was the free-form and organic narrative that he produced with a very consistent level of quality for a full 1000 strips. It was a satisfying read, and I kept coming back to it over the course of three years.

Coming back to a web strip is something that I must say I haven't been brought to do very often over the years. You've really got to stick with me in order for me to want to come back to you, and if you've had me and lost me, that's probably it for you. The internet has made it easy for anyone with a pencil and a piece of paper to become a publisher. No longer does it take the type of drive that creators had to had in order to submit their work to publishers, or self-publishers had to have in order to at least get to their local Kinkos and drop good money to print up their work. Even with that drive, distribution of the work would be very often be localized.

Now we've got a form of publishing that is not only paperless and costless, it also means that a person doesn't ever have to leave his house, and the distribution is instantly international. This makes things a bit too easy in my book. It makes for a pretty diluted level of quality, moreso than you would have gotten even five years ago. Given the massive quantity of webcomics these days means I've got to slog through a HUGE amount of crap to get to the rare gems online.

I don't have the kind of time it takes to be an active reader of dozens of mediocre strips, especially since I have my own mediocre comics to worry about. So, if a strip doesn't strike me right off, or hold me after just a few pages, I'm done. I have that luxury, too, since there's just SO MUCH free stuff out there to go through. I couldn't even hope to try to read it all, so I'm not sticking around for anything less than great. To be completely honest, I'd rather pay money in comic stores for guaranteed good than to spend hours and hours hunting to find less good for free.