When does a strip stop being good and turn into dribble?

[Van Douchebag]

Today's Penny-Arcade strip makes Hulk sad.
I'm a big fan of Penny-Arcade, but sometimes I wonder just what the hell Mike and Jerry are doing.

Today's strip of Penny-Arcade rants about Kirtsen Dunst's interview where she "wonders why more superheroes don't die". Instead of being witty and tongue in cheek about it, the final panel is "Well let me tell you something, whore! He doesn't die, because he's fucking Spider-Man! You whore!"

A lot of Penny-Arcade is pretty good, like this strip about Interplay, or this one. Others, however, like this one or this one are just boring.

Of course, Penny-Arcade's been around so long so I guess they can slip once in a while, but this makes me think about something - how long does it take for a strip to go from good to shit?

Sometimes in comics, especially at the beginning or when you're trying to move the plot along, you hafta create some boring strips just to get the plot moving. I'm still doing that in chapter 2 of White Hydra because now I hafta go back and explain the backstory between White Hydra and Draconigena Diablo.

Other times in comics you have your conclusions to shiz, and sometimes they are lacking. The death of Reka in RPG World, for instance, was kind of ill-concieved because Ian failed to set the mood properly for her death. It was still in the cheery RPG World mood, but her death instantly broke it for the rest of that particular comic making me feel like it was kind of lacking.

Another example; in Girly Otra and Winter finally hooked up, but the comic after that was just kind of mushy and ended "part 1" in a way that was lacking. It would have been a good way to end the series in mushy dribble like that, but to me that strip kind of alienated me because it broke the entire mood of the comic that had been set up.

So, at what point in a comic does the strip turn from good to bad for you?
I think the biggest turnoff for established comics is when either they don't set up for a particular mood properly, or just break the mood of the comic completely with something out of left-field.

[Joel Fagin]

Well, I've never like PA. They have their moments but generally seem to use violence and extreme language instead of humour.

The thing to do with a strip is not let it stagnate - which is to say, don't do the same thing over and over again. Melonpool, Penny Arcade, PvP, Sluggy Freelance, Garfield... All of those are the same thing day after day. You can only get away with it for a few years before they become tiresome.

So either finish the strip or move it along.

Of course, my argument is somewhat blunted by the fact I just listed some very popular strips.

- Joel Fagin

[Bekka]

Von Douchebag, if I have decided that a comic is good enough to keep checking it for updates, it must take a lot of stuff that I don't like before I give back on it. The reason is that all webcomics have their ups and downs, and even my most favorite webcomics have strips (or even sequences) that I find boring, unfunny, corny, what have you. I know though that if I really like that comic, it's only a brief spell.

It happens even with our own comics as you point out, sometimes we have to draw a panel that bores us because it's necessary to move the story along.

Finally, it's impossible to tell what people will like in our comic, didn't you ever have anyone compliment you on a punchline that you didn't even consider a punchline? Anyway, I'll talk about your comic a second and tell you of the moments I didn't like, and why they weren't enough for me to stop reading it or feel disappointed.

First of all, you had me as captive audience with panels #1 and #2. The story really starts with a bang, and the zombie lawyers are a great idea - enough to make a lazy, distracted potential reader want to read more.
Panel #3 was quite funny, with the inclusion of Dr Phil and Atkins in the books of evil, then to be honest I got a bit bored with the intro of the new character, and all that stuff about throwing the heroine to the right library shelf etc etc.

I was almost going to stop reading, when you got me again with #9 and the college student that complains that he's not a zombie, he just came for the keg. That's a GREAT line. Anyway it was enough to offset the fact that I had been bored in #4 - 8, and make me want to keep reading. I read happily the story up to #22, and here is my big downer: the elf character. I don't particularly like it, and I don't find funny all the running gag about her/him/it wanting to kiss the heroine.

Chapter 2 picks up again, and even if the gag about roleplayers being scared by a girl isn't exactly new, you do it gracefully and I enjoyed it (I'd have had them look in some list of rare monsters in one of their manuals for the entry 'girl' but n.m). Now I almost stopped reading because of the freaking boring elf and his unfunny kiss requests but then you started again about the lich and I actually quite enjoy all the background story - plus the lich doodles in #34 'i am the b3st' are great. I endured through more elf because there was a promise of background explanation and here we are to the present.

So there. Now you have a detailed opinion of a reader of what she thinks that rocks and what stinks in your comic. Maybe it's totally contrary to your opinion, or to that of most of your readers. The bottom line is, if a reader finds enough stuff that he likes in a comic, even stuff that he doesn't like or that he finds unfunny won't be enough to make him stop reading, unless it became the dominating item of the story for a very long time.

[RPin]

Of course, my argument is somewhat blunted by the fact I just listed some very popular strips.

- Joel Fagin

That's the beauty of being underdogs. We can all conjecture what we would do under circunstances that we will never find ourselves into.

[Joel Fagin]

That's the beauty of being underdogs. We can all conjecture what we would do under circunstances that we will never find ourselves into.

The question becomes: Is it a result of being popular, that the author is either too paranoid to change a winning formula or simply producing what he's been trained to do by recieving rewards in readership and fan mail - or is it that they start out like that and attract readers due to the unchanging nature of the comic?

- Joel Fagin

[Patrick_Shannon]

I don't check out PA all that often but I do like their work and sometimes get a laugh out of it. I did happen to check it out this morning as well as the golf comics and was left scratching my head at all of them (though the banter between Gabe and the caddy was funny). PA has done a lot of comics, three times a week and with such a short period between takes I think they're entitled to have a bad day every now and then. We all are.

The only thing I don't like about them very much is what you previously mentioned; I think using bad language for a punchline shows lack of imagination and I've seen too many webcomics do it. I think the furthest I've ever gone in one of mine was using the word "bitch" on a female clerk in the self-check lane comic, and that was to show fustration and was not in the final panel (setting up for the punchline instead). As I look back on it, I wish I hadn't used that, but it's no biggie.

On the topic of getting stale, I think it depends on what subject your comic covers. For example, I did a small comic about fencing for my fencing club's newsletter, and thought about transfering that to the web. I quickly realized the problem: the topic would get very stale quickly and I'd run out of ideas. I decided to go after something I put up with everyday instead....namely culture. Where that works is that there is always someone making a goofball of themselves in the news or some occurance happening, so I don't think I'll ever run out of ideas. Man, if I had only been doing my comic during the Clinton impeachment.....

[JPSloan]

Well, I've never like PA. They have their moments but generally seem to use violence and extreme language instead of humour.

Aha! So THAT'S why you don't read Sawdust!

[BryanOlsson]

I read PA because occasionally they have excellent stuff. Same with Men in Hats, and many other comics for instance. They may not be consistantly funny, but every once in a while theres something to read. I guess it turns into dribble when those hidden gems dissapear and all that is left is the stuff in between.

On that note, why do I even read PvP anymore?

[Bekka]

Exactly what I was trying to say But much shorter and clearer.

[Godoftarot]

Well, I've never like PA. They have their moments but generally seem to use violence and extreme language instead of humour.

The thing to do with a strip is not let it stagnate - which is to say, don't do the same thing over and over again. Melonpool, Penny Arcade, PvP, Sluggy Freelance, Garfield... All of those are the same thing day after day. You can only get away with it for a few years before they become tiresome.

So either finish the strip or move it along.

Of course, my argument is somewhat blunted by the fact I just listed some very popular strips.

- Joel Fagin

I have to agree with you. There's been one or two that I've liked in PA, but not many. I don't like a lot of the comics that so many people think are fantastic, actually.

I think the mark of a "gag" comic that is really good is when you want to print one of the strips out and put it on your wall. So far the only strip that's made me want to do that is Dominic Deegan: Oracle For Hire. I need to get around to doing that someday, seriously.

When I read a comic, I want a story. Years of manga brain-washing, perhaps, but there you have it.

[Wp]

Stories are good since you don't have to come up with a new gag everyday. And it's not finished until it's finished! If you have the general plot planned out, it shouldn't get worse and worse over time unless you start spending less effort.

[Rkolter]

Von Douchebag, if I have decided that a comic is good enough to keep checking it for updates, it must take a lot of stuff that I don't like before I give back on it. The reason is that all webcomics have their ups and downs, and even my most favorite webcomics have strips (or even sequences) that I find boring, unfunny, corny, what have you. I know though that if I really like that comic, it's only a brief spell.

Ditto the above.

[Ghastly]

Everyone has their "off" strips. I believe it was Scott Adams who said you're allowed to suck 25% of the time.

[McDuffies]

Well, can't say for PA, I never liked them in the first place; Problem with them, well, the gag Van is complaining about, that's pretty much what PA is about for me, and I don't see it as much different than any other of their stuff.
On the other hand, a several of my fave comics failed to amuse me in last couple of years. All comics have their ups and downs, yes, but when a comic doesn't have a story that gets me interested for more than a year, then I start suspecting that the author lost his edge.
Why?
Possibly, fear to step out of the formula, for those who earn money on their comics. They just forget that originality and invention is what brought them there in the first place.
Other reason can be: listening to their fans too much. Fans are not objective, most of them are not as critical as I am, they'll continue to follow and like the comic even if not much of what they grew to like in the first place, is left. They'll be happy just to see familiar characters every day, they'll keep throwing glorifying phrases in mail and on forum, and artist, being subjective toward his own creation (which is natural) will get the impression that everything is ok.
Therefore, for me, John Allison and Tailsteak are the top. They knew when to stop, which can me harder than making a comic in the first place.

[Kris X]

It's really hard for daily comics to find things that are funny. especially during the summer. -.-; Trust me, I know.

[Godoftarot]

I have to say, though, that 8-Bit Theater does a pretty good job...

[[geoduck]]

[
The question becomes: Is it a result of being popular, that the author is either too paranoid to change a winning formula or simply producing what he's been trained to do by recieving rewards in readership and fan mail - or is it that they start out like that and attract readers due to the unchanging nature of the comic?

Dunno about the others you listed before, but Jim Davis evidently created/nutured Garfield specifically as a marketing vehicle, an unchanging assembly-line product to be churned indefinitely.

And I still enjoy Sluggy Freelance.

[Jeffy]

angst

[Joel Fagin]

Well, I've never like PA. They have their moments but generally seem to use violence and extreme language instead of humour.

Aha! So THAT'S why you don't read Sawdust!

You can have a dog or you can have a joke about or using a dog. The second is funny, the first is not. Similarly you can have violence, as PA does, or you can have a joke about or using violence, as you do.

And, yes, I do read Sawdust.

- Joel Fagin

[Xmung]

when the characters start ski-jumping over a shark infested pool you know it's time to move on...