Computer vrs. Hand Inking

[Sortelli]

It's not even a matter of laziness. I don't think laziness is a good idea, I think a person should push themselves.

But listening to William pontificate on the perils of paintshop is like listening to the Mooninites explain how superior they are.

"On the moon, Fryman, we use cylinders filled with ink to finish our artwork, I don't know if you can understand that, but our lines are filled with voice"

"So what you're saying is, you're superior because you use a pen?"

"Err! Err come here and help me tell this caveman how superior we are!"
"Did you tell him about the lettering?"
"Yes! We are masters at lettering, challenge us!"

"Frylock, they're beyond all understanding, why question it?"

[Van Douchebag]

Van, do you actually know how to ink by hand, with a quill or brush? I guess you don't because then you'd know that it's damn tough, it took me a few years to get a hang of it, and I'm still not satisfied with results.

I used to ink my works. I just stopped because I found I could do superior work with computer inking.

Don't kill me - these are from summer 2002 and early 2003. I had to scan them all from my old portfolio.

http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/vandouche ... spawn2.jpg
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/vandouchebag/violator.jpg
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/vandouche ... spawn1.jpg
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/vandouche ... deyman.jpg

Happy?

And William G has officially ran out of room to talk. Now he's going out against Sortelli.
Before he starts whining how important inks are maybe he should prove it by ameliorating his own work before blasting methods used by myself or Sortelli, or thousands of other webcomic artists.

[MomoChan]

Wow- scary scary people we have here...

Pencils are step one- if the art is important in your comic. There are SOme Web comic out there that skip pencils and do inks- but you cna see where the needs fer speed has sacrificed the ability to fix errors in proportion and things like that.
Very good pencils can stand alone.

Inking is an art form- to do it by hand requires a steadiness that I'm struggling with, but when it's properly done with depth of line it can make an image sing for you. If you can do it in a clean- pleasing fashion on a computer- go for it- I find my litlte brush rather soothing- but- I have to use a touch pad and tend to curse in a bizzare fashion when too much CG work is called for.

Colors- well- in this case since I THINK we started with WEB Comis I'm goign to advocate CG work.
THere is one easy reason for this.
Very few peopel have the high powered scanned required to make a marker picture scan well. AT the very least you WILL have to touch it up anyway. FOr a web comic it's usallay easier to get a nicely non-evil-jpeg (jpegs are fine- but the evil pixelation they do to what LOOKED like a smooth color marker job make me ill) with a art program of some sort.

the really important thing to rember is that the results are the most important. ANyoen who says cg is the easy way out has never sat down and focused on a peice in photo shop for six hours.... Or more.

If it's well done- there are no 'easy' aspects to an art. Ease can only be obtained thoguh practice- practice- a bit of talent- and- umm- oh yeah- practice. I've been drawing for a long time- I'v eonly just recently stopped chuckign everything once i was done. I've been photoshopign for a long time- and I've just now figured out how to do a few things.

It's not a matter of cg vs. traditional- There exsist a fuzion state between the two that more and mor epeopel are figuring out.



ANd if I hear anthoer 'CG coloring is lazy I will hunt them down and pummel them....... Unless your a filter whore there is no one button finsh for ANYTHING.[/img]

[Sortelli]

How did you start, Van? The big reason I haven't gone into CG lines yet is because I don't want the lines to be uniform. Do you draw two lines to outline the actual thick line and then fill them in?

And how long does that take? It strikes me as actually taking longer than a pen.

[TheGoobla]

Man, I just tried to read through this thread, but all I can say is you're all fucking fruitcakes. Have any of you seen Chasing Amy?

"TRACER!"
"You're mother was a tracer!"

So yep, that pretty well sums up the all encompassing wit of this debate.

[Van Douchebag]

How did you start, Van? The big reason I haven't gone into CG lines yet is because I don't want the lines to be uniform. Do you draw two lines to outline the actual thick line and then fill them in?

And how long does that take? It strikes me as actually taking longer than a pen.

Yes, and it does take longer than a pen. The end result, however, is a smooth and crisp edge that I absolutely love.

[Vorticus]

Man, I just tried to read through this thread, but all I can say is you're all fucking fruitcakes. Have any of you seen Chasing Amy?

"TRACER!"
"You're mother was a tracer!"

So yep, that pretty well sums up the all encompassing wit of this debate.

I concur enthusiastically. You people take this way to seriously. Besides, didn't you hear RPin tell you to knock it off?

[Phact0rri]

Which is really what a lot of the resistance to my suggestion that you learn to work the medium yourself comes down to: People defending their right to be lazy.

Using the computer to do things is important in the world of webcomics. I do, lots of people who are better artists than the lot of us combined do.

But all of those "Professionals" that got mentioned above know how to ink and color by hand. Since they have mastered these techniques, they know how to use a computer to color and NOT make it look like "Filters On Parade"... for example.

I wouldn't be so sure about that... Vanquieza still does water colors, and well there most colorists being hired for the big three are professional computer illustrators. And taking computer illustration classes, and others here might also know what I'm talking about... at least 60% of the class if not more cannot draw, and don't draw, but they understand the theory of color.

your words also say that those of us who use computers don't know how to paint or color, or shade, or draw. which again is a pretty brash statement. judging by VG's drawing alone you can see his pencil line art also replicates his coloring style. So, not to be crass, but I think your very wrong. I know for a fact I've taken more painting and color theory classes not to mention life drawing and other such classes, and I'm not even a declared art major (or minor). And judging by the work of people like Pin, Ping, Superlance, VG, and a host of others I'd be one to say they know inking, and coloring rather well, both as you put it 'traditional' as well a digital.

So is jerking off. Doesnt mean it's better than sex.

least thats what yo mamma said last night! *rim shot*

This is debateable... in fact it's why there is this "debate" I say it produces a sterile line devoid of personality. Much like a cartoon that was done by an army of low paid animators in Korea.

Assembly line art.

So was some of the most beautiful animation films ever created. SLeeping Beauty comes to mind. but I don't believe that you produce sterile results, animation does have its own, since of demorale, but would you want to wait a year between thirty minute episodes of the Justice League? I know I wouldn't. and to me its more about the story, than the art. but thats not to say the art and the personal voice isn't still in the background painters and character designers, tween animators I'll give you that. but there's a lot more to animation than just "Assembly line art"

That's why american comics are dying inside. Giving penciling and ink to different persons in senceless, the only reason americans are doing that is to speed up the production

Well inkers and pencilers have been in case for many decades, and I don't think american comics have fallen because of the pencileers and inkers, even comics like Daredevil where the artist draws and inks, is really any better. I think its mostly bland, ideas and the same cookie cutter approach to comics.

Is it me, or do people find that using Photoshop with a tablet to ink and then going back to traditional ink find that traditional has become twenty times easier?

Or is that just me?

Speaking of which, photoshop = everything (including pencils). RAWR.

well I know my pencils have improved from drawing on a tablet. but if I hand draw I do ink first then I just trace the lines in illustrator. cause traditional inking is faster for me, than Tablet and photoshop. I draw my characters on the tablet in photoshop (recently has gone back to hand drawn backgrounds and character guide sketches), and it actually takes longer. my comic would be way quick if i did more hand drawn work.

Personally, I do think it's fine to defend your right to be lazy. If you can create a product with the same quality, but with less effort, then I don't see any reason NOT to do it. To do things the hard way JUST for the sake of doing them the hard way is a concept that baffles me. Knowing how to cook over using a microwave, I could understand should you ever be stuck without a microwave. But then again, not being able to ink is not exactly a life threatening situation.

and in the real world it is about speed.... and even in the webcomicking world it is about speed. If you don't update your comics regularly, you will not have people to look at your work. its as easy as that. not to mention, some of us try to have somthing of a social life *l*


And Sortelli...

"you and your four walls"

"what about them?"

"how quaint... on the moon we have eight Million. "

"did you tell him about about the update schedules?"

"oh yes.... we have evolved past update schedules.. on the moon, we update when we want, and where we want... and we don't tell the readers where they are.. we make them use goggle."

[Sortelli]

You people take this way to seriously. Besides, didn't you hear RPin tell you to knock it off?

Yes, but I'm a rebel.

[Sortelli]

"you and your four walls"

"what about them?"

"how quaint... on the moon we have eight Million. "

"did you tell him about about the update schedules?"

"oh yes.... we have evolved past update schedules.. on the moon, we update when we want, and where we want... and we don't tell the readers where they are.. we make them use goggle."

The part about the update schedules hurts 'cause it's true for me. I'm still working on today's update.

[Vorticus]

Yes, but I'm a rebel.

I wish I was such a rebel that I could ignore my update schedule .

[TheGoobla]

Im such a rebel, I dont even HAVE ONE! 8)

[Zuri]

Quick interjection about the sending out for inking?

Generally it is prefered now ( at least for some comic companies) that you can produce both pencils AND inks at a professional quality. Like many other professions the comic profession requires the artists to do MORE for less money. Especially for the smaller publishers. They also generally like it if you can write, letter and color too. They want a lean, mean hit comic producing machine for rock bottom wages.

You guys are also still talking about webcomics. As soon as you step into the realm of print publishing, its kind of a different kettle of fish. What you produce for a press is different than what you can get away with for a computer screen. Also, as was mentioned, the industry is a beast. They expect certain things of files. While digital inking has made HUGE gains and I know there are a lot of professional digital inkers, there is still a lot of professional hand inkers, but it is a dying breed. Much like hand colorists. Coloring in comics is done almost exclusively on the computer these days. One of the reasons that inking was used anyway was for the press. the pencils would be done in non-reproduceable blue pencil and the inks were done overtop of these pencil boards then they were photographed to film to make plates for the press. Pencils at the time were not bold enough to make good prints. So work was inked. The printing industry has evolved now so that decent printing of pencils could be done, but it looks rough and unpolished. The masses paying for comics tend to expect a certain quality, look and polish to work and so the model has stuck, and it does make it easier to print.

I wouldn't knock professional inkers. They do a lot more than just 'trace'. They clean up the pencilers 'mistakes' as well as do things like define mood, lighting sources, light, shadow, shape, and depth. I have to admire someone who can pick up a brush and put down beautiful lines with each stroke when I can't even get a strait line with a drafting pen and a ruler. Thats some steady hands. Even digital inkers still have the same challenges that hand inkers have if they are doing their job right.

Granted there are people who can do some wicked things with illustrator and flash. But not everyone's style or look is something they want the 'clean' lines for. Sure, it has the benefit of being a vector image. Wonderful. But its not the look that everyone wants or needs. Sometimes, its just a source of frusteration.

Personally I draw and hand ink everything. Its not because I can't digitally ink in illustrator. Hell, I've done some VERY impressive work. But I don't care what kind of gee wiz wonderful the computer gets, its still just a tool. Just like a pencil, just like a pen, just like a brush. Its a tool I have to use at work every day, all day. Its not very wonderous or exciting. I prefer a change of pace and find pencil, paper, and pen relaxing. I want to have as much fun as possible with my comic, being that it is my hobby, and so I'm going to make it how *I* enjoy making it.

And I think that should really dictate what you use to make yours. What you enjoy using the most.

[Ruxen]

Is it me, or do people find that using Photoshop with a tablet to ink and then going back to traditional ink find that traditional has become twenty times easier?

Or is that just me?

It's not just you, you're right on the ball (at least to me), inking with Photoshop takes a good hour to finish one piece of general art I cringe to imagine how long it would take to do an entire comic page. I guess I don't have the patience to do it or something. That's going to be pretty much what I have to say about all this, seems all of you were talking about webcomics and I was focusing more on the industry itself. To each his or her own I say.

[Faub]

Some experiences going from the web to print:

On the web it's a simple matter to take pencils and digitally enhance them so they look decent. Adjust levels, use the burn tool. Adding ink seemed to give the pencils an extra level of depth but it also took away something.

Pencils alone (for the most part) Check out Sandy's coat in the last panel. I like the texture on that one.
http://faub.keenspace.com/d/20030623.html

Pencils and Burn tool. The burn tool makes the pencils a little darker (the background looks bad on this one)
http://faub.keenspace.com/d/20040108.html

Pencils, Ink and Burn tool. The result is a sharper image. Everything is more clearly defined. But the drawing has lost some of its organic feel. The characters are starting to look porcelain in certain ways.
http://faub.keenspace.com/d/20040528.html

Compare that with a White Hydra. Totally digital. You could print this on a 6x15 foot poster and it would look the same. To me, though, the dark and menancing bear thingy looks like something from a coloring book.
http://whitehydra.keenspace.com/d/20040531.html

There's something to be said about this look, though. EOI looks just as good
With color:
http://elfonlyinn.keenspace.com/d/20040524.html
or without:
http://elfonlyinn.keenspace.com/d/20040521.html

I'm totally impressed by both White Hydra and EOI because they are doing something that I haven't been able to do. Smooth clean lines are very impressive but to me, EOI is even more impressive because it was done by hand for that extra wow factor.

The chibi Mars at the bottom of http://faub.keenspace.com/d/20040101.html is the closest I've ever gotten to that style (it's hand inked and run through autotrace, btw) and right now, I can't figure out how I did that. The chibi at the bottom of http://faub.keenspace.com/d/20040528.html is the way I've been drawing them recently. There are too many lines in this one but that does give it a much different quality than something done digitally: http://www.spellsandwhistles.net/.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but http://www.sinfest.net/ was all done with a brush. I can't look at White Hydra, Penny Arcade, Alpha Shade or any other digitally inked work the same way.
I've tried working with a brush. Monkeys would be hard pressed to produce anything recognizable.

Digital vrs. Hand drawn? I like them both when they're done well. Both can monumentally suck when they're done badly. It all comes down to the artist. If the artist can't use the tools (s)he's going to produce crap.

[Sortelli]

I dunno, the end result means more than the process to the average reader. I'm glad you guys like my manual inking, but I still feel a little behind what can be produced with a computer in comparison.

That might be because my art style in general is closer to people who do digitally produced works than it is to something like yours, faub. I intentionally go for the coloring book feel instead of using ink or pencil to lay down textures or produce depth.

Anyway, the impressed feeling is mutal, I love your pencilled works.

[Soap Soaperson]

Faub, your pencilling skills are always wonderful, whether burned, left alone, or with a pen. If there's anyone here who can vouch for a pencil as a comic tool, it's you.

[Faub]

Some pencil based comics:

Kissing Chaos
http://www.onipress.com/titles/titles.php?id=KC2

Blade of the Immortal (also uses some ink)
http://www.math.ucla.edu/~brodsky/blade.html

[Soap Soaperson]

I said if there's anyone HERE to vouch. Them people ain't on the Keenspace forums.

[Superlance]

Miffed Computer Colorist

it simply gives better color

This purely personal taste on your part. Don't try to claim it as anything else.

Has your almighty ignorance ever tried to make black with Watercolor, or pure white with oils?
It's hard for the latter, and impossible for the former.

is not your right to critisize it

And why is that? Did God come down from Heaven and make an 11th commandment that said "Thou shalt not critisize computer coloring" when I wasn't looking?

Do not slaughter my sentences in an attempt to misquote me.
It is not your right to critisize Digital form just on the basis that it is Digital.
That is like critisizing Russia on the basis that it was once controlled by communist leaders. It proves nothing.
A crappy gouche is going to be just as crappy as a crappy Digital.
On a really well done Digital, it will be impossible for you to tell the difference asthetically anyway, between Digital and gouche or acrylic.

My blood pressure is to high to even bother with the other ignorant statements you have made unto the other comments

Then this statement is irrelivent.

Irrelivent, but true.

So either open that rusty box you call a mind to a little outside influence, or shut the hell up.

Get back to me when you can offer something of substance. Like an argument supporting your view.

Does this mean you wish to hear from my .38 Special, or my attorney?
Stop being an ignorant ass.

By remaining open to all solutions, you have a much better chance of succeeding in any trials you may face.
I enjoy every form of art very much, so I cannot understand why you would so defiantly attack one particualar style simply because the art is done on a computer.
Have you considered that not everyone may have the rescources (space, money, supplies), or even the ability? (it's hard to paint with 10 broken bones in your hand, but it's managable with a mouse, I've discovered)

Did I come at you with bared teeth, armed to combat against your art style?
I do not recall having done so.
So please try desist in your idiotic slaughtering of mine.

Or I might have to get angry.
You don't want to be in the same state as I am when I'm angry.


...

...Oo! Oysters!
*wanders off*