Death Panels for All! The health care thread

[Legion]

I see no point in continuing.

So your response to people disagreeing with you is to throw what looks from here to be a temper tantrum, delete all your posts, and storm off in a huff? Robby did come off a bit abrasive, but not enough to really justify that sort of reaction, surely.

[Ahaugen]

I see no point in continuing.

So your response to people disagreeing with you is to throw what looks from here to be a temper tantrum, delete all your posts, and storm off in a huff? Robby did come off a bit abrasive, but not enough to really justify that sort of reaction, surely.

I just think he can't comprehend people actually defending something that he has been told is evil and will destroy America

now, my dad was a border guard on the U.S. side, so he got that magical government health plan and we had to fight with them every step of the way to cover his end of life hospice care after he had his stroke. I never never never NEVER EVER want to go back to that coverage. I want to know that my live insurance will go to my family, not to some greedy insurance company so some corrupt, incompetent MBA can get a golden parachute for fucking up the company!

Also, this is why Sarah Palin hits a sore spot with me when she drags out her Death Panel kill granny and the mentally challenged babies CRAP!! until she has to go through this shit, she can just shut the fuck up! she has no right to use this to score cheap political points

[VinnieD]

I see no point in continuing.

So your response to people disagreeing with you is to throw what looks from here to be a temper tantrum, delete all your posts, and storm off in a huff? Robby did come off a bit abrasive, but not enough to really justify that sort of reaction, surely.

I hardly call wishing to remove myself from the situation "storming off." All I did was remove the posts that I have every right and ability to remove because I wanted out of the debate as it was quickly turning ugly and personal. That's something I choose not to be involved in, and regret joining in on in the first place.

[Legion]

Saying you wanted to leave the debate at that would have been fine: I wouldn't have commented at all if you;d just done that.. Personally I thought some of the posters arguing against you were getting too personal, and risking simply attacking you, or a strawman argument, rather than your actual points. The thing I found odd was removing your posts altogether: that seems to me to be a lot like 'storming off'. I've gotten involved in heated debates before, debates that even got personal, and even a few that I lost catastrophically, but I've never tried to remove my posts and pretend they never happened. Since much of what you posted is already recorded in the quotes of other peoples' posts, it also seems a little pointless. That's why I said it looked like a 'tantrum': a decision made in the heat of the moment.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not jumping in here because I disagreed with your arguments. I'd think and say the same even if you were defending universal healthcare, or if one of the posters arguing against you had done the same and deleted their posts. I just think this sort of behaviour gives no credit to you or to your views, whatever they may be.

[Legion]

DOUBLE POST EDIT: Oh the irony.

[VinnieD]

My posts were still being quoted after expressing my desire to leave the debate. I thought the only way to safely end it other than requesting the thread be locked, which I don't want to do, because other people do still want to post here, was to remove my presence altogether. Rather my previous explanation that I can not understand their stance, nor can they understand mine, failed, so I saw no alternative.

Yes I do have a bit of a conditioned anger response, to being assailed by multiple people simultaneously, but I assure you the post I was writing driven by that emotional response, i did not hit submit. What I ultimately did was the alternative I chose after going to calm down. Disagreeing is one thing, we can disagree all day long, and sometimes concede that no agreement is possible, but when things become personal, it's time to leave the situation altogether.

[ShineDog]

I have long held the opinion that if your creative output is as god damn terrible as something like antibunny, then you probably shouldn't get involved in any kind of debate.

[Alias Pseudonym]

I have long held the opinion that if your creative output is as god damn terrible as something like antibunny, then you probably shouldn't get involved in any kind of debate.

Now you're just being a dick with ad hominem attacks. Stop it.

[ShineDog]

Hello! Shinedog here! Pleased to meet you!

[VinnieD]

That was entirely pointless. But I hear that it's an indication that you're becoming popular when people start hating you. Maybe it's some kind of compliment.

[Robin Pierce]

I have long held the opinion that if your creative output is as god damn terrible as something like antibunny, then you probably shouldn't get involved in any kind of debate.

There's no need for this, and saying that being snarky is just your personality doesn't give you a clean slate either.
Things shouldn't be getting personal during a debate. If they do, at the very least I'll have to lock the thread, or seperate the threads and then lock, and that's a pain. Keep things civil please.

That said - the other downside of you deleting your posts, Vinnie, is now I have absolutely no way of following what happened, so any comments i make look entirely one sided.In the future, it may be better just to leave the posts and withdraw yourself from a situation.

[Grabmygoblin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKBa9K_vAm8
debate is hard.

[MixedMyth]

*shiver* Scaaaary.

At any rate, it's been hard for me to keep up with seven pages of debate... so if somebody has already posted this, sorry about that. But I thought somebody ought to post the link to factcheck.org seeing as they have quite a number of articles about the healthcare debate and which are true, which are false, and which are in between. People can scream at each other all they like, but it's hard to know what's what without grounded evidence.

Personally, I really really really really want the public plan. also an end to pre-existing conditions. And, well, a lot of things.I suppose I feel that if other governments can do this, so can we. Governments can run efficient healthcare programs.it has been demonstrated in many countries. The thing is that if we decide that we aren't able to run one, then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. That is, the conclusion that we are incapable of doing this means that we will not try to construct something meaningful sense we already think it's doomed.

[McDuffies]

My posts were still being quoted after expressing my desire to leave the debate. I thought the only way to safely end it other than requesting the thread be locked, which I don't want to do, because other people do still want to post here, was to remove my presence altogether. Rather my previous explanation that I can not understand their stance, nor can they understand mine, failed, so I saw no alternative.

I've walked out of dozens of discussions simply by not replying to them. Everyone is trying to have the last word in this kind of arguement, and the only way to stop it is to give up on having the last word, not reply, and stop caring about what people post after you leave.

Posting a lengthy post that invites people to respond, and then announce "now I'm out of this discussion", expecting people not to reply just because you said so, is actually doing the oposite, not only will people reply, but will also be aggravated.

These were mostly not even particularly agressive posts anyway, save for Robby and he always talks like that. There were deffinitely not "simultaneous assaults".

[Tellurider]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKBa9K_vAm8
debate is hard.

I mostly prefer to spectate here but that video actually made me think of something.

People who have universal health care: does your country's health care cover abortions? Does it cover birth control? The morning after pill? Also, how does it work with prescription medications? Do you have a copay, or is it just free? Does it depend on the type of prescription, like, do they cover all the HIV drugs? What about new drugs? If a pharmaceutical company comes up with a new drug to treat, say, cancer, how long before it's covered by the universal health care? What if the drug is really expensive? I read an article a while back about Great Britain not covering a cancer drug because it was too expensive, does anyone have personal experience with something like that?

[ShineDog]

In order to get an abortion in the UK you need a referral from 2 doctors. The criteria for a referal in brief "•Two doctors must agree that an abortion would cause less damage to a woman's physical or mental health than continuing with the pregnancy" Theres a lot more detail than that to it, but yes, they are available on the NHS.

You still pay a nominal charge for any prescriptions. This is, as far as I'm aware, a flat rate per medicine. I have recently discovered that if I order my inhalers in bulk I pay the same as if I ordered individually, since I pay for each medicine rather than each item. It is pretty frigging cheap, and if you ar. There is no charge for medicine when you are in hospitale disabled, unemployed, or still at school then the fee is waved. I would assume that contraceptive pills are charged like any other prescription but I dont know. You can walk into most GPs and any family planning clinic and get free condoms.

There may well be certain drugs that are unavailable because it isnt economically viable. Thats entirely possible but I cant talk with any kind of authority on it. I honestly dont think this is unreasonable (some high end medications could probably bankrupt the NHS) but I'll point this out right now. There is an upper limit to what is available on private insurance in the US, and you dont have to look far for hundreds of horror stories where the insurance companies wont pay out because the policy only covers X period in the wards or whatever.

[Komiyan]

Notably, the contraceptive pill is 100% free in the UK.

[Killbert-Robby]

Notably, the contraceptive pill is 100% free in the UK.

Hrm, I thought I heard something about that, but I wasn't totally sure. That actually surprised me, good on England.
I remember hearing a statistic about that though. Something about like, apparently for every pound the UK spends on providing free contraceptives (I thought this was just condoms, guess its pills too) aka the Family Planning Provision, they save just over ten pounds in their Health and Social Welfare Budget. Which is always good.

[Tellurider]

Notably, the contraceptive pill is 100% free in the UK.

Well shucks, sign me up!

[Killbert-Robby]

Notably, the contraceptive pill is 100% free in the UK.

Well shucks, sign me up!

Move to England for 6 months and sign YOURSELF up.