An observation, and a question.

[McDuffies]

I mean, think of the reverse attitude: "No, I can't hang out with you; you're too young, and that's Just Not Done™." That's borderline bigotry right there.

I'm a regular Hitler, ain't I?

Really, through all this I'm trying to make it clear that I'm not against every contact and potential relationship between different age groups. I'm just saying that it's normal that it's people of your own age with whom one gets along best, with whom one forms closest friendships, that it's a fact based on both social and biological reasons, and not just a mere social convention.
It leads to different conclusions. Like, a group of people of certain age are likely going to talk about subjects imminent for their age, and an older person present in such group is likely to feel out of place in such situation.
I like to stress it 'cause you insistently read everything I say as imperative that older people stop spending time with younger as soon as possible.
For example:

If you hang at, say, a coffeeshop, and there happens to be another regular there who is either significantly older or younger than yourself, should you eschew their company simply as a matter of course? If so...why?

Yes. Yes like I clearly said before, when you meet a person, you should ask them for their ID to see what their age is. What can I do, I'm a fascist like that.

You you can talk to younger people about I dunno, movies, comics, but when it comes to real-life stuff, personal issues, those things where friendship is really built, the person who is nearly the same age as you is the one who'll understand you the best.

...and that's the sole basis for friendship, or even just casual hanging out? Really?

Yes indeed. Specially the part about "casually hanging out". Obviously when I said "You can talk to younger people about I dunno, movies, comics..." what I meant was "You can not casually hang out with younger people" because casual hanging out with someone is exactly the oposite of talking to them about lighthearted subjects.

I'm just sayin'...I'm willing to bet that there are some people who are VERY worth knowing who are way older or way younger than myself, and it would be a shame to miss out on that because I was trying to follow some sort of social guideline that says I have to discriminate based on age. I just can't bring myself to do that.

But there's an unlimited number of good people, so if you choose not to hang around with someone, it's not an irreparable damage. The pattern in which you meet people in life is a matter of chance, so whatever you do, you are missing on many great people anyways.
Your time is the only limitation. Like, right now you're talking to me where you could be meeting someone great instead, so you're missing out.

And it's hardly a given that the interest of someone with a job and family is going to be interested in different things; I have friends my own age--late twenties to mid-thirties--who still play video games, read webcomics, maybe even engage in dice-and-paper RPGs. And sports, clubbing, hanging out at coffeeshops, etc. My generation seems to be staying "younger" longer than those previous; I've discussed this with multiple people and we've all noticed the same trend.

People in general are aging slower. Part of it comes because modern medicie managed to slow down the biological clock (it should illustrate to you how important biological clock is for social life and how it should not just "be damned"); for instance, pregnancy in 40ies is not as risky as it used to be fifty years ago allowing women to, like, have careers. Also, more education means more people entering stage of adult life later - in general trends are towards slowing down the aging. I think that's a good trend.

There's another kind of people who are "staying young longer", those who refuse to accept adult responsibilities in life as long as they can, who are afraid of adult commitment, who keep parents as central figures in their social life, etc etc - Peter Pan syndrome and all that. That, too, is a rising trend in a society, but it's a destructive kind of trend, because it affects other people negatively and it's usually caused by unresolved emotional baggage. Ie: not healthy.

This has little to do with people reading comics, doing RPG and stuff - those are just games, and people remains playing games their whole life, be it tampering with new VCR or car, playing sports, or RPG. People used to put much effort into disguising these games into "serious activity", not unlike how people try to find subtext in "Star wars" so they could enjoy it guilt-free as adults, or buy Legos "for their children". It's not an indicator that people are staying young longer, it's an indicator that people don't have so many pressures to fit into conventional image of maturity anymore.

[Jim North]

Maybe the secret to bringing the community back is we all have to get off our butts and start drawing again?

Whoa, now. Let's not get all crazy here.

[Yeahduff]

Anyone can get a blog or their own webspace these days, they don't need this service. Would be surprised if Keenspot doesn't fold it within a year. If we want the forum to survive that, it'll have to become something other than a place for webcartoonists.

Unlikely, I do believe it pays for its own bandwidth, last I checked, so why bother? It's still the best place out there for people just starting in webcomics, and if it isn't please point me to another site that hosts you with unlimited bandwidth for free, without having to qualify a quality check, with full and total control over your pages. The only ones that come to mind are DrunkDuck, Webcomics Nation and Smackjeeves which are equally full of bad comics as CGen is.

Well, admittedly, the only numbers I have are my own. But it seems like Keenspace comics are losing popularity as much as much as the forum is. Maybe there are a ton more small-small-time comics that are pulling enough weight, I dunno.

I like the services offered and am unlikely to move my comic off of it, so you don't have to sell me. But you mentioned three other places people can go, and there's a real chance that as years go by there won't be a need for that many free comic sites. Again, this is without numbers to go off of and is more like tea leaf reading, so if you know better, than cool.

The community itself, though, is hurting, whether it's a sign of doom for the comic site or not. We need new blood and rededication from the oldsters. Don't know how we go about doing that. In the meantime, maybe combining Off Topic and General Discussion as well as getting rid of Comic Pitching might help.

[BionicDance]

Really, through all this I'm trying to make it clear that I'm not against every contact and potential relationship between different age groups. I'm just saying that it's normal that it's people of your own age with whom one gets along best, with whom one forms closest friendships, that it's a fact based on both social and biological reasons, and not just a mere social convention.

I'm not disputing that, I'm disputing the notion that one should reject out of hand the potential friendship of folks who don't fit that fairly specific mold, or that it was weird to welcome such friendships, which is what was asserted.

It leads to different conclusions. Like, a group of people of certain age are likely going to talk about subjects imminent for their age, and an older person present in such group is likely to feel out of place in such situation.
I like to stress it 'cause you insistently read everything I say as imperative that older people stop spending time with younger as soon as possible.

Look, it's pretty clear that we are talking at cross-purposes, here; the original assertion was this:

"No I just think once you turn 30, hanging out with 15 to 20 year olds makes you a creepy loser. Most of the new people joining this forum are high school to early college. I don't think you should stop surfing the internet all together. I just think people should get some friends around their own age."

That's the notion which I am disputing; if you're not asserting that as CJBurgandy was, then we're just plain not talking about the same thing, here. But, after all, that's what sparked this little controversy in the first place.

But there's an unlimited number of good people, so if you choose not to hang around with someone, it's not an irreparable damage.

Yes, it is.

People are not interchangeable parts; they are unique. Maybe not all of them are worth knowing for everybody, but I refuse to be a party to rejecting what could become a life-long friendship simply on the basis of age. That WOULD be irreparable damage, at least to me.
That's why I spoke up in this thread in the first place.

[Komiyan]

That's a very nice theory, but I dunno.. When I went back to uni for a bit as a mature student, about 25, all the people on the course were 18 and starting for the first time. Now, that's only a small age gap really, but there WAS a gap. At times it felt like a chasm- I'd already done all the uni stuff, learned independance, just generally grown up as a person. I'm 25, about to marry, looking for a house to settle down in, and they were 18 and just starting their adult lives. I saw a lot of myself in them, when I was 18 I was very similar, but despite this it still just felt a little odd to hang out with them.

I'm not saying I didn't meet some great people there, but there was just this scism of maturity between teenager and adult that made it slightly weird and made me feel a bit mum-sy. Maybe its possible to enjoy that weird feeling of being older and thus wiser over your friends, but honestly I much prefer when it's a relationship between peers, which it can't really be when you're not both adults.

[Jesusabdullah]

Coming from the other side of it: I'm 22, currently going to uni. One of my classmates is an older student, in his early thirties. He's not a bad guy to work with and all, but it still feels a little weird when he suggests hanging out and maybe playing video games or something. I mean, he has a wife and kids.

Maybe the secret to bringing the community back is we all have to get off our butts and start drawing again?

Whoa, now. Let's not get all crazy here.

My sentiments exactly.

[BionicDance]

I'm not saying I didn't meet some great people there, but there was just this scism of maturity between teenager and adult that made it slightly weird and made me feel a bit mum-sy. Maybe its possible to enjoy that weird feeling of being older and thus wiser over your friends, but honestly I much prefer when it's a relationship between peers, which it can't really be when you're not both adults.

Well, maybe I'm unique in not feeling that way, in not sensing that gap, I d'know.
I mean, I'm 33, and I can relate to a six-year-old, or a sixteen-year-old, about as well as I can relate to a seventy-year-old, and people my own age as well. Wouldn't be the first time I've been socially different; I think it was my upbringing or something. *pshrug*

[Komiyan]

Relating to a younger person is very different to being an actual friend to them.

[McDuffies]

I related to a baby once. I don't think I can be her friend though, there's not much of bonding that you can make through guggly noises.
I don't know about six year olds either. What would our conversations be like?

Me: Do you ever get a feeling that you're stuck in the deadend job, that the time is passing and you're not getting any younger?
Kid: Look! Telletubies just jumped down the well!

Look, it's pretty clear that we are talking at cross-purposes, here; the original assertion was this:

"No I just think once you turn 30, hanging out with 15 to 20 year olds makes you a creepy loser. Most of the new people joining this forum are high school to early college. I don't think you should stop surfing the internet all together. I just think people should get some friends around their own age."

That's the notion which I am disputing; if you're not asserting that as CJBurgandy was, then we're just plain not talking about the same thing, here. But, after all, that's what sparked this little controversy in the first place.

I expressed my opinion and you replied to it. I thought I was clear about what I was asserting, and I certainly didn't quote CJ and add "ditto".
I mean... are you saying that you're not sure what exactly I'm asserting after you've spent two days arguing against it?

[Ekolter]

I"m soon to be 34. I'm also married with child. I have friends that range from 10+ years younger to much, much older. And yes it's odd at times with the younger crowd. I have a very good friend who's 6 years younger than I. She now understands now that hanging out requests involve pre-planning, a extra person tagging along most of the time, and sometime cutting visits short. At the same time I have friends who are in the same age & set up as I and I have absolutely nothing in common with them. The key to any friendship is bonding over various common thing(s).

As for why I'm not here as much, well there is a variety of reasons. One of the biggest is the most obvious. Other include the sense of community is pretty much dying and the dramas. I also agree the art isn't what it used to be. As someone who can't draw very well, I loved browsing and ogling at peoples works. It's inspiring. That's what brought a lot of us here. I just hope CG can get it's mojo back. Here's to wishful thinking.

[BionicDance]

Relating to a younger person is very different to being an actual friend to them.

I'd call the former a prerequisite for the latter...but I don't see why the one wouldn't follow quite naturally from the other, all things being equal.

I expressed my opinion and you replied to it. I thought I was clear about what I was asserting, and I certainly didn't quote CJ and add "ditto".
I mean... are you saying that you're not sure what exactly I'm asserting after you've spent two days arguing against it?

I'm saying that expressing your opinion on the subject without quoting or saying 'ditto' doesn't automatically divorce your contribution from the original subject which spawned the conversation. Seems borderline dishonest to even hint at trying to claim that, frankly.

[Yeahduff]

Look, most of us recognize that CJ was being extreme. In response to her, however, a number of people were equally extreme in the opposite direction. What McDuffies is saying is age matters. It's not some social dictate saying you can't hang out with college kids when you're forty, it's just the simple reality that you may not want to and vice versa.

[McDuffies]

Exactly. Noone's talking about checking anyone's ID for years. You'll usually end up being closest to people of your age without any conscious effort.

I expressed my opinion and you replied to it. I thought I was clear about what I was asserting, and I certainly didn't quote CJ and add "ditto".
I mean... are you saying that you're not sure what exactly I'm asserting after you've spent two days arguing against it?

I'm saying that expressing your opinion on the subject without quoting or saying 'ditto' doesn't automatically divorce your contribution from the original subject which spawned the conversation. Seems borderline dishonest to even hint at trying to claim that, frankly.

You're saying that my opinion is related to CJ's based on the fact that we've both posted on the same subject? Despite differences between two standpoints which you can see if you, you know - read actual posts? That my opinion is defined more by who started the conversation which I'm joining than by what I'm actually saying?
Girl, you all you know, I could have just reat the last few posts, figured what the topic was about and decided to picth in, without ever reading CJ's post.
You just recognized it as something that disagrees with you and instantly filed it with all the other opinions that disagree with you, and proceeded to spill your generic replies. Now you're really grasping at straws to somehow rationalize that attitude.

[BionicDance]

You're saying that my opinion is related to CJ's based on the fact that we've both posted on the same subject?

No, I'm saying that CJ provided us with a thesis statement to either support or dispute.

It's perfectly reasonable to interpret subsequent comments on the subject within that particular framework unless explicitly stated otherwise. The expectation that one treat new posts on the same topic as existing in a vacuum is, frankly, ludicrous.

[McDuffies]

No, I'm saying that CJ provided us with a thesis statement to either support or dispute.

So in your words, every conversation has to be based on either uniformly defending or attacking the first statement of the conversation?
That's not how conversations are had. That may, perhaps, be how scientific forums are held. In any normal conversation, opinions range from approving to dissaproving in all ranges of gray.
You don't get to set the rules of how conversation is had. Specially not after the conversation.

That quote isn't even the first one in the conversation. If you really want to be strict about the rules that you're setting yourself, this is the "framework" under which you should be interpreting:

This isn't really about comics, so I thought I'd stick this post here.

Since coming back, I've noticed (and come across a few threads discussing) how slow the forums are these days. If this is the elephant in the room, I apologize, but I've been out of the loop a while.

I'm wondering if part of the problem is that we don't seem that... etc

It's perfectly reasonable to interpret subsequent comments on the subject within that particular framework unless explicitly stated otherwise.

It may be reasonable, but that's not what you were doing.
Interpreting includes processes of reading and comprehending. What you were doing was just glancing over the post, reacting "ah, this one is also against me" and launching the same tirades that you replied the first post with. You did not comprehend, not cared to, my standpoint. You were confused that I'm not 100% behind CJ, like, three posts ago.
I mean I figured there's a breach of communication some time ago and went to clarify my point as clearly as I could, if only to avoid being called bigot again. But what's your response? "You are not allowed to say that! You are supposed to be behind CJ and defend her opinion instead of your own opinion! You are dishonest and ludicrous for not following my rules of conversation!"

[Jim North]

You know what's awesome? Arguing about how to argue. It's almost as fun about arguing about semantics!

[Evil Jamie!]

No it's not! *shakes fist*

[Killbert-Robby]

You know what's awesome? Arguing about how to argue. It's almost as fun about arguing about semantics!

I'd like to see some sources about that, God, learn2debateplz

[McDuffies]

You know what's awesome? Arguing about how to argue. It's almost as fun about arguing about semantics!

Don't you compare arguing how to argue with argouing about semantics. Everybody argues about semantics. We're underground!

[Steverules]

Maybe the secret to bringing the community back is we all have to get off our butts and start drawing again?

Whoa, now. Let's not get all crazy here.

Eh, I don't know. That might work for me.

As for the lack of activity speaking strickly for me I don't feel like I have anything to add to the existing threads. I check back here on a regular basis and read through off-topic threads. I enjoy them. I just don't have any comment. So rather than posting for the sake of posting I just keep quiet. In fact, I almost posted in this thread right after Corgan created it. I typed out my response, read it and thought *meh* and deleted it. Coming back and seeing it I figured I'd go ahead and throw my 2 cents in. Now I'll go back to lurker mode. . . ninja style.