Art or writing?

[Nervous Spy]

Art and writing, art and writing
Go together like teeth and biting
This I tell you brother
You cant have one without the other

Although, strictly speaking, you *can* have teeth without actually biting. And you can have a horse without a carriage - so I guess those lyrics were a bit asymmetrical to begin with.

[Czar]

Art and writing, art and writing
Go together like teeth and biting
This I tell you brother
You cant have one without the other

Although, strictly speaking, you *can* have teeth without actually biting. And you can have a horse without a carriage - so I guess those lyrics were a bit asymmetrical to begin with.

It's a bit pointless to have a carriage without a horse or biting without teeth, though.

[Legendary]

Biting with a beak is possible, no?

[Czar]

Biting with a beak is possible, no?

It's more of a nibble, I think.

[Dotty]

I'd lean heavier to the art side, as I've read plenty of webcomics that were pretty damn retarded but also ones that I enjoyed greatly, because they were presented wonderfully in the visual department. Eye candy. I love it.

When I thought about this question, I knew inevitably that "both" would be my only true answer, and that's just how it is. There is no cut and dry yes and no here. To make a comic really GOOD, it requires both. I've seen the names I expected to see in here, thrown out there to prove whatever point they were used for. There's a few that readily jump to my mind, since they're universally labelled "good" webcomics. More often than not, "great" webcomics.

I'll split em and say why these particular comics brought me to my conclusion.

1. qwantz.com (Dinosaur Comics)

A lot of people like this comic, and I read it every now and again for a laugh. This comic does not prove a good comic does not require good art. The reason I came to this conclusion; I could type the words into a .txt file and present that on the web, and it would still be just as funny. The clip art doesn't really do anything to enhance the comic except occasionally give the dinosaurs (Character 1 and Character 2, occasionally Character 3) something to yell about and step on. This could be done through words just as easily, since it's always the same thing they're stepping on.

2. Diesel Sweeties

I CAN'T READ THIS.

3. Applegeeks

Wow what a wonderful artist. I agree, no question. Amazing talent here. The only question I've ever had for this comic is...how the hell did you get stuck with such a bad writer? It's not the writing is -bad- persay, but it's definitely not interesting, creative, and when reading I'll lose my attention span really rea

4. Megatokyo

Nice art, and theres some kind of story going on here, but it's been stretched out for so many years that I don't know, or even care, what's going on here anymore.


I -could- keep listing comics like this, but every time I list one suggesting art isn't necessary, one comes up that says "yes, it is, but for gods sakes don't skimp on the writing like this guy did".

I'm sorry Joel. If you want an honest answer so as not to taint your poll for your tutorial....I can't answer this. If you just want a statistic, I'll check a box later.

[Jim North]

This could be done through words just as easily, since it's always the same thing they're stepping on.

Not at all, because it's the concept of using the same art over and over again rather than the art itself that's important. You lose that concept if you switch to just the text.

[Nervous Spy]

This could be done through words just as easily, since it's always the same thing they're stepping on.

Not at all, because it's the concept of using the same art over and over again rather than the art itself that's important. You lose that concept if you switch to just the text.

Exactly - without the art, you'd then have to repeat just the same text over and over again, and that would quickly lose it's novelty character.

[JTigerclaw]

I'll chip in, but I don't have much of anything original to say.

I love looking at comics with great art, but, just like looking at a masterpiece like the Mona Lisa, I get bored after a while and move on. A comic, no matter how well it is drawn and how creative the artist is, is going to get old after a while without good writing. Same style of art that I'm used to = a few seconds of entertainment, exponentially less entertainment each time though. However, if that comic has a good story, or even if a comic with subpar art has a great story, I am drawn in and I look forward to updates because it offers something new... a new progression of plot, or a new joke. Therefore, at least for me, good writing gives me something to look forward to more so than good art.

But yes, to make a good webcomic, you really need both. That much is obvious.

[Yeahduff]

Same style of art that I'm used to = a few seconds of entertainment, exponentially less entertainment each time though. However, if that comic has a good story, or even if a comic with subpar art has a great story, I am drawn in and I look forward to updates because it offers something new... a new progression of plot, or a new joke.

Mmm.... Why does the repetition of an art style get boring but the repetition of a writing style doesn't? The comic with great art offers something new with each update too... a new angle, a new pose, different framing, a new presentation of familiar images, etc. If you're getting bored with the art, it's not great.

[JTigerclaw]

Same style of art that I'm used to = a few seconds of entertainment, exponentially less entertainment each time though. However, if that comic has a good story, or even if a comic with subpar art has a great story, I am drawn in and I look forward to updates because it offers something new... a new progression of plot, or a new joke.

Mmm.... Why does the repetition of an art style get boring but the repetition of a writing style doesn't? The comic with great art offers something new with each update too... a new angle, a new pose, different framing, a new presentation of familiar images, etc. If you're getting bored with the art, it's not great.

Yes, this is true, but I mean more along the lines of ... great writing in a comic takes a while to unfold, so it keeps my interest much longer, and my interest is not based so much on the intrigue of the writing style itself, but on the story unfolding (in most cases... Sin City is an exception).

Yes, it's possible to make art that is marvelous enough to keep my interest for a very long time (being an artist myself, I find myself examining these comics for tips on helping my own art), but these are few and far between. It definately is possible to make a comic worth keeping up with just for the beautiful art, but I find that whenever I only have time to check on a few webcomics, I check the ones with a story that enthralls me. I get deeper into comics with good writing, or moreso, an interesting story with interesting characters. (if it was just based on how good the dialogue sounded, I would read more Shakespeare, but the story is where it's at. Not that Shakespeare doesn't have interesting stories, just trying to comprehend them enough to be entertained alot of times isn't worth the trouble.)

[TRI]

(if it was just based on how good the dialogue sounded, I would read more Shakespeare, but the story is where it's at. Not that Shakespeare doesn't have interesting stories, just trying to comprehend them enough to be entertained alot of times isn't worth the trouble.)

That's cause you're reading his work. Nothing, I feel, sucks the life out of Shakespeare more than trying to read his work instead of watching it.

[Mercury Hat]

I can't even understand half his plays unless I read them outloud to myself.

Also repetition of writing style is why I never read more than two Stephen King books.

[Ladycheru]

*whew* That's a toughie. I don't think I could honestly say... If you have artwork, but a bad story, or bad jokes, you're not going to attract any readers. However, if you have a super story, but bad artwork, you're initially going to deter readers. But, when it comes right down to it... I mean, some people'll try anything once, so even if you draw stick figures, and have rockin' jokes or something, you'll probably build up some fanbase. So, I guess the writing. (Probably everyone before me has said something similar.)

As a writer, in my own personal style, I feel that the two really support each other. On the one thing, I'm terrible at describing things, which is key to being a good writer. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, I can draw the scene much better than I could describe it. However, I don't always feel like drawing, which is where I come in to enhance my stories. That was probably off topic, but I'm exhausted, and don't really care. 'Sides, if you can't be off topic here, where can you be off topic?

I can't even understand half his plays unless I read them outloud to myself.

I took an entire course on Shakespeare and how to read an interpret his plays. We even had scripts that "translated" certain words/phrases into modern day English. To this day, I can barely understand what the heck he wrote most of the time. (Though I am quite partial to Hamlet and Much Ado About Nothing.)

[Hallonpress]

This thread seems very bumped. Not that I'm adding anything new to this either, but...

Wasn't Scott McCloud's point in Understanding Comics that art and writing should not be separated? That makes for a less than perfect comic, regarless of how good the individual parts are (has any of you read Tom Puss or Prince Valiant? ).

It's all intertwined. Art is also writing if it tells a story. That's why a wordless comic is still written. In some cases, bad art IS bad writing, if it fails to convey the mood it's meant to.

[TRI]

Egads! It's . . . A THREAD ZOMBIE!!</Doctor Orpheus>

[Redtech]

Well as long as it's no Bodak!

On topic, well I find writing and drawing to be second to 'completely idleness', so it's a learning curve for me.

I find that it's a lot easier to draw expressive scenes and work on the captions or vice versa. Characterisation is important even in gag strips. Nothing is worse than characters who no one gives a fung about.

[Dwight L. MacPherson]

Wasn't Scott McCloud's point in Understanding Comics that art and writing should not be separated? That makes for a less than perfect comic, regarless of how good the individual parts are (has any of you read Tom Puss or Prince Valiant? ).

He did indeed say that--but we all do it.
Let's face it: comic books are a visual medium, first and foremost. If the art does not suit your taste, you will not delve into the writing aspect of the story. No one sees a comic on the shelf or internet and says "Wow. I bet this has great writing." If the art doesn't hook you, you move on. If the art suits you, then you delve into the story.

See... this is where many small press books fail. The art is superb--so folks pick it up. After reading it, they realize the story is sh*t, so they don't continue to buy the book. The same is true in webcomics. I've found many that are wonderfully illustrated, but the story is a train wreck. So, needless to say, I don't follow those webcomics. [/rant]

[Hallonpress]

Wasn't Scott McCloud's point in Understanding Comics that art and writing should not be separated? That makes for a less than perfect comic, regarless of how good the individual parts are (has any of you read Tom Puss or Prince Valiant? ).

He did indeed say that--but we all do it.
Let's face it: comic books are a visual medium, first and foremost. If the art does not suit your taste, you will not delve into the writing aspect of the story. No one sees a comic on the shelf or internet and says "Wow. I bet this has great writing." If the art doesn't hook you, you move on. If the art suits you, then you delve into the story.

See... this is where many small press books fail. The art is superb--so folks pick it up. After reading it, they realize the story is sh*t, so they don't continue to buy the book. The same is true in webcomics. I've found many that are wonderfully illustrated, but the story is a train wreck. So, needless to say, I don't follow those webcomics. [/rant]

Certainly true. I bought The Portent by Peter Bergting because it looked so gorgeous. And it had gotten raving reviews, so it couldn't go wrong, right?

Except I found it was terrible in every regard except the art. The pacing was rushed, and the story just made me confused. Bleh.

By the way, did you mean that we all separate art and writing, or did you mean we all agree with McCloud?

What webcomics do you like? I mean, what are the best examples of art and writing in harmony? It's either one or the other that makes one turn back...

[Dwight L. MacPherson]

Certainly true. I bought The Portent by Peter Bergting because it looked so gorgeous. And it had gotten raving reviews, so it couldn't go wrong, right?

Except I found it was terrible in every regard except the art. The pacing was rushed, and the story just made me confused. Bleh.

And this proves the reality of many small press publishers simply publishing books for the art. It happens more than you might think, unfortunately.

By the way, did you mean that we all separate art and writing, or did you mean we all agree with McCloud?

Sorry for not clarifying. I meant that we all separate art and writing. To draw an analogy from life... how many people see someone of the opposite sex for the first time and say "Wow. Look at the personality on that one?" Don't you have friends of the opposite sex who look good--and those who have good personalities? I've met some gorgeous women with sh*tty personalities, and vice versa. The truth of the matter is that we are a visually stimulate race. I don't know anyone who can tell a person's personality simply by looking at them. But if you don't like their looks--will you approach them?
Am I... ranting?

What webcomics do you like? I mean, what are the best examples of art and writing in harmony? It's either one or the other that makes one turn back...

Besides my own? Sorry... had to go there.
To be honest, I am so busy with writing and editing comic books, writing webcomics, attending college full-time, writing a column for Broken Frontier and raising three kids on my own--that I find very little time to scour the internet for webcomics. There are a few I enjoy, but I am certain that I am seriously missing out on other great webcomics out there. We need to add about 4 hours to each day.
A few I follow are:

Hero by Night Diaries
Death Piglet
Toy Division

I would add more, but I really need to leave for class now.

Oh--sorry for ranting.

[Dr Legostar]

Is the art or the writing more important for a webcomic?

yes.