With Optimus Prime on "our" side...

[Squidflakes]

In its defense, the M-16 IS an accurate weapon. However, the 5.56 round starts to tumble after a few hundred yards and looses a lot of penetration power. It does tear the shit out of an unarmored body, but even basic ballistic protection will negate a lot of the impact.

The accuracy comes from the really tight tolerances among the various parts (mostly the bolt), which also cause the weapon such fits when it gets dirty.

The AK on the other hand can stand-up to some serious abuse and still fire. Course, it wears the weapon out like nobodies business, but the Russians and the Chinese didn't care, there were thousands more where that one came from.

Bit of trivia. If you keep the AK clean, its as accurate as you can probably fire. You're not putting a half inch grouping at 100 yards, but then again, I doubt any of us could do that.

[Churba]

You're not putting a half inch grouping at 100 yards, but then again, I doubt any of us could do that.

Well, not with an AK, but it'd be a snap with my 30.08, or the haggard arse 30.30 I used to use in cadets.

Edit - Also, I'll post Exactly why I hate M-16/AR-15 - and its not a preference thing, I have some solid design reasons.

[Prettydragoon]

You're not putting a half inch grouping at 100 yards, but then again, I doubt any of us could do that.

I didn't do too bad with the Finnish AK clone. Of course, that was a while ago.

[Major Maxillary]

AK-47s have the poor accuracy rep due to shitty soviet quality control. new Russian & American-made AKs and Romanian AKs of any run are just as accurate as an M16. heck, the VEPR series of rifles, which are built on Romanian RPK receivers, are some of the best self-loading hunting rifles in the world.

the 5.56mm round doesn't tumble while in flight. that's another myth that started with people who don't know shit about what they talk about. the round tumbles after it hits you, and then fragments, causing a nasty wound that's actually worse that a larger bullet. This also accounts for it's poor penetration.

Also, with my properly zeroed rifle with scope and clip-on bipod I can get one inch groupings at 100 meters. on burst.

[Squidflakes]

I'm familiar with the tumble myth, I should have clarified.

After a hundred yards or so, the round will tumble when it hits the target. From what I've read, this is by design because light, effective, ballistic armor protection wasn't available when the 5.56 and the M-16 were developed. Stopping power wasn't as important as inflicting a mortal injury when the enemy was shot somewhere besides the heart or the brain.

However, effective body armor is pretty damn common these days, and you need a round that will penetrate as well as deliver a nice hydrostatic shock. [/i]

[GHE]

Tumble isn't quite what the current issue rounds do. They yaw. For military applications, because expanding rounds are not allowed, you want the round to change direction after entering the bad guy. Curve if you will. Additionally, our rounds are designed to break at the base creating two seperate wound channels.

That being said there are a lot of questions about the current round. It was designed to kill targets under heavy cover. There is some evidence that it doesn't work so well against your basic "guy with a rifle in a window" situation.

The AK family is a good system for what it was designed for: supplying armies with a simple, durrable weapon that you can mass produce and is easy to operate. I don't find the rifles that I have seen on the battlefied to be well made or accurate enough for my tastes. I'll take a M16 or M4 anyday.

And in closing I quote these words of wisdom:
"One thing about bullets, impact, weight, muzzle velocity etc. that afficionados of weapons take so seriously: My experience, on many battlefields, is that if you get a head shot or a pentrating wound to the body cavity, it takes the spirit of the bayonet plumb out of the individual you're shooting at. "

R.E. Sullivan, Colonel, USMC ('43-'67)(Ret)

[Churba]

I don't find the rifles that I have seen on the battlefied to be well made or accurate enough for my tastes. I'll take a M16 or M4 anyday.

Personally, I think a Hard to clean, badly designed weapon that jams every second or third magazine under combat conditions(Unless you keep it clean enough that Surgical instruments would be green with envy) is a particularly bad idea.

Sure, It looks absolutely Badarse, but Shit, dude, Give me something that actually Works when you want it to.

[GHE]

I don't find the rifles that I have seen on the battlefied to be well made or accurate enough for my tastes. I'll take a M16 or M4 anyday.

Personally, I think a Hard to clean, badly designed weapon that jams every second or third magazine under combat conditions(Unless you keep it clean enough that Surgical instruments would be green with envy) is a particularly bad idea.

Sure, It looks absolutely Badarse, but Shit, dude, Give me something that actually Works when you want it to.

11 1/2 months in Baghdad and I didn't even hear of a jam in my company. Simple weapon and magazine maintenance FTW

Now the M9 pistol.... that's a whole other ball of wax.

[Churba]

Must have been a hell of a different weapon than we got to toy with.

(Edit- It might be, In consideration - I'm thinking of the M-16A2 - And I've only heard anecdotal evidence for both sides about the A4 model.)

Now, Even if you lay out the M-16's blueprints, you notice Fundamental flaws in the Design. The tolerances are far too tight for a combat weapon, It uses soft alloy receivers and is fed from flimsy magazines that are too weak to operate properly when loaded to full capacity.
The rifle shits where it eats thanks to it’s direct gas impingement system. Compounding that bad idea, we have the use of a tiny gas tube and a horrible breach design that is impossible to clean properly without dental tools and the patience of a dentist doing a root canal.
The gas tube itself can warp or break from overheating due to sustained firing - When its glowing hard enough to light your immediate surroundings at night, you better start hoping that it isn't going to pop.

The extractor design is puny and weak, but worse yet is the spring loaded ejector. The ejector plunger can get stuck with the smallest of particles of brass or copper from the ammunition. A jam from a stuck ejector is a special kind of jam that double feeds the next round causing a wedge that prevents further movement of the action regardless of how hard you try to pull on the bolt handle. To clear it, you have to drop the magazine (if you can) and slam the butt furiously against a hard, unyielding object.

Unfortunately when you start slamming the rifle like this, you can bend the rifle at a couple different points or you can just break stock. It’s a roll of the dice.

While cleaning you will notice that in a great many hard to reach places you have a black deposit that must be removed. This is carbon. This is the Shitting where it eats that I told you about earlier. It hits the metal flaming hot and under pressure. Do you know what heat and pressure does to carbon? Turns the shit into diamonds is what it does. This black carbon is so hard that it has to be scraped off with a tool. BUT - not too hard… you don’t want to scratch the parts.

Now, 45 minutes to an hour later, your rifle is Clean enough to pass Inspection - so let's move on.

There is the lower receiver and trigger group…. More pipe cleaners and some Q-Tips to get down in there. After the lower is done, it’s time for the upper receiver. You have the main tube portion that is hard to reach all the areas in there.
Then the charging handle raceway which is even more interesting.
The gas tube needs to be cleaning as well.
Pipe Cleaners, high pressure solvent injectors, harsh language - all required to clean that.

Once this is done now you are in for a special treat.

The chamber. The M-16’s chamber is shaped like a retarded star and you have to get behind the lugs in there. Strange brushes, pipe cleaners, language that would make a drunk Irishman blush… all required to get the chamber clean and none of it allow you to get the chamber perfectly clean.

Happily, after that Chamber of Fucking horrors, The Barrel cleans Normally, With the usually liberal application of Cleaning patches, break free, and maybe a bore snake.

Easy enough to do at home, but Try doing all this in the field, during bad weather conditions, stress, hunger, fatigue, the threat of death, and other things unique to your varying situations.

Now, I can't speak for every rifle, but Every M-16 I've ever come in contact with has been Ammo Sensitive to the point of insanity.

Yes, The M-16 is Accurate - but what use is an accurate gun that doesn't go Bang when you squeeze the trigger? Y

Yes, They work fine when you clean it - but a service rifle should still work fine even when you don't have the time to clean it. Like when people are shooting at you. If it gets too muddy you should be able to open the action, piss into it to rinse the mud chunks out of it, and be back in the fight.

Personally, I'd rather Take my .308(Or even my old Cadet 30.30!) and an F-88 Austeyr over a whole crate of M-16s. Scratch that - I'll take the Crate, but only to drop a Thermate Grenade into it.

[Lulujayne]

*releases the super-special-extra-lubricated-tentacles-of-lustful-abandon and molests GHE*

Welcome to he GGC forums darl - it's lovely to have you

[GHE]

Must have been a hell of a different weapon than we got to toy with.

(Edit- It might be, In consideration - I'm thinking of the M-16A2 - And I've only heard anecdotal evidence for both sides about the A4 model.)

M16A2 is what I carried for most of my tour.

Now, Even if you lay out the M-16's blueprints, you notice Fundamental flaws in the Design. The tolerances are far too tight for a combat weapon,

Not really too tight. It is tight enough to function accuratly but not too tight as to be unreliable.


It uses soft alloy receivers and is fed from flimsy magazines that are too weak to operate properly when loaded to full capacity.

That's kind of old school. The new magazines have improved welds, strong springs and anti-tilt followers. I loaded all mags to full capacity and rotated them regularly to rest the springs.

The rifle shits where it eats thanks to it’s direct gas impingement system.

I cant really argue about the gas system. Blowing dirty gas back into the reciever wasn't the best idea.

Compounding that bad idea, we have the use of a tiny gas tube and a horrible breach design that is impossible to clean properly without dental tools and the patience of a dentist doing a root canal.

Not really that bad. An inspection grade cleaning can take time unless you use gunscrubber or some other product. Hot running water works well too when followed up with proper lubrication.

The gas tube itself can warp or break from overheating due to sustained firing - When its glowing hard enough to light your immediate surroundings at night, you better start hoping that it isn't going to pop.

I have never seen this happen. Keeping in mind that a basic load is 270 rounds you really won't see the type of sustained firing needed to cause this breakage under combat conditions.

The extractor design is puny and weak, but worse yet is the spring loaded ejector. The ejector plunger can get stuck with the smallest of particles of brass or copper from the ammunition. A jam from a stuck ejector is a special kind of jam that double feeds the next round causing a wedge that prevents further movement of the action regardless of how hard you try to pull on the bolt handle. To clear it, you have to drop the magazine (if you can) and slam the butt furiously against a hard, unyielding object.

The extractor system has functioned as designed for me. I have seen double feeds in the past for various reasons on the range but they were with A1 models in basic. I have seen few, very few, with A2 and up weapons. Double feeds are usually cleared easily with a loose round or pocket knife after dropping the mag.

Unfortunately when you start slamming the rifle like this, you can bend the rifle at a couple different points or you can just break stock. It’s a roll of the dice.

While cleaning you will notice that in a great many hard to reach places you have a black deposit that must be removed. This is carbon. This is the Shitting where it eats that I told you about earlier. It hits the metal flaming hot and under pressure. Do you know what heat and pressure does to carbon? Turns the shit into diamonds is what it does. This black carbon is so hard that it has to be scraped off with a tool. BUT - not too hard… you don’t want to scratch the parts.

I have yet to find a diamond in my issue M16 but I will start looking. Yes they are a pain to clean unless you use gunscrubber, hot water or another cleaner but it can and does get done.

Now, 45 minutes to an hour later, your rifle is Clean enough to pass Inspection - so let's move on.

There is the lower receiver and trigger group…. More pipe cleaners and some Q-Tips to get down in there. After the lower is done, it’s time for the upper receiver. You have the main tube portion that is hard to reach all the areas in there.
Then the charging handle raceway which is even more interesting.
The gas tube needs to be cleaning as well.
Pipe Cleaners, high pressure solvent injectors, harsh language - all required to clean that.

Once this is done now you are in for a special treat.

The chamber. The M-16’s chamber is shaped like a retarded star and you have to get behind the lugs in there. Strange brushes, pipe cleaners, language that would make a drunk Irishman blush… all required to get the chamber clean and none of it allow you to get the chamber perfectly clean.

Happily, after that Chamber of Fucking horrors, The Barrel cleans Normally, With the usually liberal application of Cleaning patches, break free, and maybe a bore snake.

Easy enough to do at home, but Try doing all this in the field, during bad weather conditions, stress, hunger, fatigue, the threat of death, and other things unique to your varying situations.

Been there. Done that. Got the combat patch. In combat it doesn't have to pass inspection, it just has to function. And it does just fine.

Now, I can't speak for every rifle, but Every M-16 I've ever come in contact with has been Ammo Sensitive to the point of insanity.

Not an issue for military. Its all issue ball ammo.

Yes, The M-16 is Accurate - but what use is an accurate gun that doesn't go Bang when you squeeze the trigger?

Not sure. Mine always have.

Yes, They work fine when you clean it - but a service rifle should still work fine even when you don't have the time to clean it. Like when people are shooting at you. If it gets too muddy you should be able to open the action, piss into it to rinse the mud chunks out of it, and be back in the fight.

That's quite a visual.

Bottom line is that the weapon does what it designed to do and has for forty years. There are other and probably better options out there but if it isn't broke don't fix it. I am sorry that you had issues with the weapons you have handled but I have over sixteen years experience and it gets the job done. Cleaning can be a pain but that is the extent of my complaints. Come see me and we will go shooting. I'll show you what they can do.

[GHE]

*releases the super-special-extra-lubricated-tentacles-of-lustful-abandon and molests GHE*

Welcome to he GGC forums darl - it's lovely to have you

Now THAT is a warm welcome. Thank you!

[Squidflakes]

Once again, I'm going to suggest that those of us who are interested in such things should form the "Ghastly's Ghastly Gunbunnies" shooting club.

Too bad we're all so geographically distant. I bet a couple of hours on the range, followed by a couple of hours at a bar would be the best form of therapy known to man.

[Churba]

(@ GHE) *Grins* Well, you've passed muster and earned my respect, mate. I'll buy you a drink next time you're down this way.

Once again, I'm going to suggest that those of us who are interested in such things should form the "Ghastly's Ghastly Gunbunnies" shooting club.

Now there's an idea........

[WangyJohn]

...and the pacifist, anti-militarist concious objector in the corner suddenly felt chills...

[Churba]

The only thing more noble than Not fighting when it isn't necessary than fighting when it is.

[Kittyboymuffin]

Hot running water works well too when followed up with proper lubrication.

This sentence works best when taken out of context. :3

[Kite-san]

Hot running water works well too when followed up with proper lubrication.

This sentence works best when taken out of context. :3

but not too hot, we wouldn't want cold-shock to cause shrinkage.

[Squidflakes]

...and the pacifist, anti-militarist concious objector in the corner suddenly felt chills...

Eh, nothing military about my aims. I just like guns. They are classically beautiful, and amazing. Being able to contain an explosion and direct it to do your bidding is kind of cool.

[Orwell]

Interesting discussion. Any particular ideas where one might find information from those serving in Iraq along these lines and further? I've seen some footage from those serving there, but I think the descriptions serve for a far better understanding.

And concerning the original point, optimus prime.