Vice and grace

Error of Logic · Post by **Error of Logic** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:44 am

I'm curious ... With all the knowledge that seems to be floating around this forum, I wonder who can meet my challenge:

Name the seven works of compassion and the seven deadly sins.

No, this is not preaching or a rant. This is me, satisfying my curiosity.

Squidflakes · Post by **Squidflakes** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:09 am

An interesting question. Will people answer with Dante, or will they check religious texts for the mortal sins.

I'm going with Dante:

The Seven Deadly Sins
Pride
Envy
Wrath
Sloth
Avarice
Gluttony
Lust

The Seven Works of Compassion
Humility
Generosity
Love
Kindness
Self-Control
Temperance
Zeal

Personally, I like Lust.

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:39 am

I'm not to sure what you mean by the "seven works of compassion," if it's the same as what I know as the "Seven virtues," here's all 14 as listed in Dante's the Divine Comedy -

(Begining with the "Not so bad," and moving down the list to finally reach the "Worst of them all," sin-wise.)

SIN......VIRTUE
Lust - Chastity
Gluttony - Modersation
Avarice - Charity
Sloth - Zeal
Wrath - Meekness
Envy - Generosity
Pride - Humility

It was thought (in days of yore

) that practicing the virtues would weaken the draw of the sins over the soul. Which was pretty damn important in "Yore" - So much so that the witch hunting Bishop, Peter Binsfeld associated demons to each particular sin in 1589 as part of his nasty witch-huntingness and general quest to bring people into the loving arms of God.
Unfortunately, this was done by burning men, women, children and bits of string at the stake, which was a bit demonic in itself really, but perhaps this was where he got his inspiration from?

Anyway, here is the list of sins with corresponding demon -

pride - Lucifer
envy - Leviathan
anger - Satan
greed - Mammon
sadness - Belphegor
gluttony - Beelzebub
lust - Asmodeus

You probably noticed that "Sloth" otherwise known as good ole "laziness" is missing from the previous list, and has been replaced with "sadness," - This is because the barbequeing Bishop (sorry, tacky I know,but I couldn't resist) was working with a much older list. He was using the version thought to have been drawn up by (or at least ordered by) St. Gregory The Great sometime during the sixth century. He ordered the sins according to their insult toward love (I personally like that notion, it seems a lot more practical, beautiful and logical, as opposed to concerning our puny little mortal moment over whether or not we just offended a pie in the sky - by the way my apologies if I just offended anyone then, but they were burning folk alive back then!)
The order arranged by St. Gregory the Great was used in both previous lists.

I'm not sure when, but sometime along the was "Sadness" changed to "Sloth" and the order of the sins severity was rearranged. For this I'm sure other forum memebrs with have much more information

*looks pointedly at dear Jackalope, Squiddy and Honor

*

However I do know that somewhere along the line Thomas Aquinas gets his two cents in, so here is his new revised order (todays standard I believe?)

(Also, alongside each sin is the "traditional" punishment in hell meted out tp those who commit the particular sin. The punishments can of course be seen in glorious technicolour in artwork by H Bosch and various other Medieval/early rennaisence religious artwork - Themeparks and psychiatrists and movie makers are nothing compared to what I reckon these pictures used to do to peoples minds!

)

pride - broken on the wheel
envy - held in freezing water
gluttony - force fed rats snakes and toads
lust - ye olde fire and brimstone (by the way, is there anything in the fact that that is now the entirety of the standard Christian hell senario, or am I just reading to much into that - any ideas?)
anger - live dismemberment
greed - boiled in really classy expensive oil (it was pricey stuff back then.....actually, still is now....)
sloth - snake pit, Indiana Jones style, only Belphegor has the cool whip, not you.

So - I was now going to get into the whole virtues thing. But basically I'm tired (yes It's, or at least I'm that pathetic

) Besides it's not just some simple single source things, theres bits and pieces from all over the place, ancient Greek writtings, thinkers and phillosophies, Prudentias and his big long (yes, epic) poem, the "Psychomachia" aka "the Battle for the Soul," also there's obscure bits of Catholic Christian numerology, yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah ......

I think that now is definitely the moment to let someone much more qualified to kill this chook....
Lulu go sleepy time now

Cuteswan · Post by **Cuteswan** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:00 am

Lulujayne wrote:envy - held in freezing water

GEORGE COSTANZA: It's shrinkage!

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:38 am

Wow, that's pretty detailed! INteresting stuff!

Lulujayne wrote:lust - ye olde fire and brimstone (by the way, is there anything in the fact that that is now the entirety of the standard Christian hell senario, or am I just reading to much into that - any ideas?)

I think you're on to something there.

~Sara

MaryxTyphus · Post by **MaryxTyphus** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:23 pm

I always liked Pride and Wrath when it came to sins. Mainly because I wish I had more pride in what I do and Wrath... Well Wrath's just nice.

Course Lust is also a good one.

I was honestly going to go by Dante, but I do kind of like Evagrius's eight vices; gluttony, lust, greed, anger, melancholy, sloth, vainglory, and pride. (Though when you think about it Vainglory is kind of a splinter from pride, must be why the rest were somewhat adopted and that was dropped.)

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:36 pm

How the hell is sadness a sin?

Scarecrow · Post by **Scarecrow** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:17 pm

"All hope abandon, ye who enter in."
Dante was an interesting guy. Looking forward to spending eternity in Dis and playing with the three furies since I'm a heretic. (plural of furry has two 'R's if I'm not mistaken, whew - waking up in a burning tomb with BB standing over me would be...interesting..) I was religious once upon a time, but nowadays not so much...
As for sadness being a sin, I have to agree - Weird.

(on the topic of Inferno...linkage)

Agent Vesago · Post by **Agent Vesago** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:40 pm

Also on the subject of Dante.

Dante's Inferno - A Virtual Tour of Hell

Error of Logic · Post by **Error of Logic** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:09 pm

Agent Vesago wrote:Also on the subject of Dante.

Dante's Inferno - A Virtual Tour of Hell

Got any virtual tours of Purgatory and Paradise?

Jackalope · Post by **Jackalope** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:46 pm

Ghastly wrote:How the hell is sadness a sin?

Melancholy or dispair, not simple sadness. Remember, it's a sin to kill yourself, too! Dispair means you're no longer trusting in Grohd to save you from the evils of life, so that's a sin.

And now, a song from the Kipper Family:

Mudcat Cafe wrote: The Seven Deadly Sins

Well as I come home on Monday night, I'd had nothing at all to drink.
I saw a horse behind the door, that made me stop and think.
A coat, some boots, a pipe I spied, and then upstairs I ran.
And there in bed beside my wife, a great big hairy man.
Oh must you come barging in she cried, you put him off his thrust.
For me and the village smithy we, are practising our lust.

Well, as I come home each night, my troubles all begin,
For there's the missus practising, the seven deadly sins.

Well as I come home on Tuesday night, as sober as a judge.
I saw no tea upon my plate where my old tea should lodge.
So I called my wife, and I said to her, well here's a rum old do.
I've got no tea upon my plate is it something to do with you.
Oh I've sinned, I've sinned, I've sinned she said there's nothing for your tea,
For I have been a-practising the sin of gluttony.

Well as I come home on Wednesday night,as dry as any old bone.
I saw the cat all on the stairs, where that should not have gone.
So I called my wife, and I said to her, well what's all this here then,
Why is the cat all on the stairs, where that should never have been.
Oh I'm upstairs practising pride she said, in my best Sunday hat.
Pride come before a fall says I, and then I fell over the cat.

Well as I come home on Thursday night,my tongue all hanging out.
I saw no books upon the shelf, they was all strewn about.
So I called my wife, and I said to her, don't tell me let me guess,
You've found another deadly sin that's called untidyness.
No ! I'm a-trying to find out what covetousness means,
I wish I owned that dictionary we saw round at the Deans.

Well as I come home on Friday night,a-gasping for a wet.
I saw no spouse upon the chair, where my old spouse do sit.
So I called my wife, and I said to her, well what's a-going on,
I left my spouse all on this chair, wherever has she gone.
Oh, look up, look up, you silly old fool, I'm hanging from the light
For I am practising sloth she said and I'll be here half the night.

Words:Kipper Family
Tune: Kipper Family

The Kipper Family are residents of Trunch, Norfolk.
The Kipper Family are Dick Nudds & Chris Sugden.

NB The tunes are parodies in themselves and the songs don't always scan properly if you use the obvious traditional tune.
This is a parody of The Dubliners (recorded) version of Seven Drunken Nights, which had only five verses, so it too has five verses.

Indigo Violent · Post by **Indigo Violent** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:14 am

I think I may have hit all seven in the space of a week, how crazy is that?
Wrath - went on an extended rant about how much I hate my logic class yesterday.
Lust - smuggled my boyfriend into my house last Saturday after my parents were asleep, and masturbate way more often than is good for me.
Sloth - skipped logic (because I hate it) and slept until noon today.
Gluttony - had a big slice of chocolate cake after dinner tonight.
Pride - was very smug about how slick my video project looked while projected on a big screen (although was somewhat taken down a peg because it was much louder played on the speakers at the bar than on my headphones when I was editing it in the lab, and so I only found out tonight that I had neglected to take out the sound where I said "rolling" during filming).
Envy - wished it were as cool as some other people's projects.
Greed - this one I don't think I got, unless one stretches it a little and counts the fact that I got a cup of tea instead of a latte when I went out for coffee with friends on Friday, because it was cheaper.

Myself · Post by **Myself** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:46 am

I thought that everything was perfect before the Church came along. They made these emotions and named them so I bet its all because of them and not some greater power.

Scarecrow · Post by **Scarecrow** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:10 am

myself wrote:I thought that everything was perfect before the Church came along. They made these emotions and named them so I bet its all because of them and not some greater power.

I'm not sure that it was church that gave these things names, they've been around as long as humans have. "World's Oldest Profession" comes to mind. The problem occured when organized religion started using fear as a tool. If there is some sort of divine being - it wouldn't have made so called "sins" feel good if it didn't want us to endulge. Even the human brain is wired to enjoy getting revenge (source.) Just my opinion on that matter.
If there is a hell, and I'm going to go there, I'm going to make damn sure that I deserve to be there.
Fire and brimstone, says I.

Cuteswan · Post by **Cuteswan** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:22 am

Wow, it's a bit overwhelming... But there's just one opinion I wanted to share about greed: I don't believe it's a sin to want stuff and do what it takes to get it, but it only becomes a sin when you are willing to hurt others unnecessarily to do so. Maybe I'm totally off.

Error of Logic · Post by **Error of Logic** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:51 am

My two cents' worth: yes, things like lust, greed, envy and the whole shebang are part of the human condition. No changing that and that's okay - so long as we keep it under control. It's when we let them rage completely out of control, overruling both our own and other people's human dignity (not to mention a few other things), that is when they become destructive and, henceforth, sinful.

Honor · Post by **Honor** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:24 am

Indigo Violent wrote: Lust - smuggled my boyfriend into my house last Saturday after my parents were asleep, and masturbate way more often than is good for me.

So that would have to be, what...? Several times an hour?

Indigo Violent · Post by **Indigo Violent** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:40 pm

Honor wrote:
Indigo Violent wrote: Lust - smuggled my boyfriend into my house last Saturday after my parents were asleep, and masturbate way more often than is good for me.
So that would have to be, what...? Several times an hour?

Basically until it hurts, which is never a good thing. I blame the fact that I'm on birth control, which makes my hormonal changes much more noticeable. Around midway through my cycle I get horny as hell.

Tellner · Post by **Tellner** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:59 pm

Funny. When my wife was on hormonal birth control her libido hit the floor. When she went off it, it kicked into higher gear, especially around the fertile part of her cycle. Efficient, isn't it? You want to fuck when you're most likely to conceive.

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:29 pm

Hehe, great song

~Sara