She's making Buck-Cake!

[Tellner]

I'd always heard:

Q. What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
A. Trilingual.

Q. What do you call someone who speaks two languages?
A. Bilingual.

Q. What do you call someone who speaks only one language?
A. American.

And, believe me, I feel ripped off that I didn't get to start another language while I was young enough to really pick it up.

Alas, you tell tell that to most Americans and they say "huh?"
Tell it to anyone who isn't American and they laugh.

[Squidflakes]

Those are soooo true... *weeps for her country*

~Sara

Don't worry Sara, there are plenty of non-citizen immigrants living in the US with little to no concept of American history, geography, government, or the English language.

Those jokes are refering to a dying breed known as "legal immigrants". Those are people from other countries who didn't run, jump, swim, or smuggle their way in.

[Moo Cow]

*snuggles* Thanks hon...

though the non legal immigrants didn't have much choice because it's so hard to get in legally...

~Sara

[Error of Logic]

^^ Heh ... When I read your words, it sinks in how cool it is that foreign languages are mandatory learning material over here all the way through high school. But then we are a nation of trade ...

[Squidflakes]

*snuggles* Thanks hon...

though the non legal immigrants didn't have much choice because it's so hard to get in legally...

~Sara

*blinks* I think there is always a choice. If I were to emigrate to another country, I'd make damn sure I was familiar with the language, customs, government, laws and ect. Then I'd get legal citizenship.

For the beneifits you get, coming here from a third world country, I think the couple months of study makes up for it.

[Honor]

*snuggles* Thanks hon...

though the non legal immigrants didn't have much choice because it's so hard to get in legally...

~Sara

*blinks* I think there is always a choice. If I were to emigrate to another country, I'd make damn sure I was familiar with the language, customs, government, laws and ect. Then I'd get legal citizenship.

For the beneifits you get, coming here from a third world country, I think the couple months of study makes up for it.

>.>

<.<

Waitasecond... Are we going to take the republican view of pretending it's that easy to get in, and the only reason these people are illegals is because they're too stupid or too lazy to take a test?

[Schol-R-LEA;2]

Well, it's sort of hard to study when you're starving, broke, have no access to much more information than the name of the country you're going to, and/or are being shot at when you're leaving your original home.

Not that this is true of all or even most of the illegal immigrants today, but there are plenty for whom it is. Not making excuses, just pointing the fact out.

In any case, that's not the point. There's not much that the US can do about the knowedge of immigrants, legal or otherwise; one would hope that we could do something about the education of the citizens who were born here.

[Cuteswan]

Not to cause an issue, but IMO, we've built the wall (of requirements and hassle) so high that we shouldn't be surprised people are digging their way under it (sneaking / overstaying).

Of course, I laugh at green card holders when the bitch that they "had to pay $10,000" to get their green card but then explain that was mostly the income taxes they had to pay. Up until a few years ago, I paid much more than that in taxes every year. Still, I do respect and admire people who go through the trouble to do it the right way and wouldn't mind something more reasonable (and trackable).

[Tellner]

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

When it comes to how easy it is to get in the Republicans are close to right. I say "close" because it's difficult if you're a political refugee or escaped prisoner of conscience. It's childishly easy if you can lower the wages of Americans.

No, I'm not being a reactionary twit.

The L-1, H-1B and H-2 visa programs have been explicitly abused. They used to be for special cases, geniuses, people with rare skills and health care workers (especially doctors) in fields where labor was in critically short supply. Now, with unemployment for technical workers well above the national average and close to ten percent of engineers and scientists working outside their fields because of lack of job opportunities the first two programs are being used to drive down the price that you have to pay locals while replacing them with indentured servants.

The H-2 program has been used to let in anyone who can spell the word "nurse" to replace native RNs and LPNs. The perversion of the program began about the time that nurses' salaries hit the national median. Up until then it was a low-pay low-status job. When it became lucrative it was deemed in the best interests of the industry to lower wages by suddenly increasing the supply from abroad.

Now, the Republicans have decided that employers no longer have to check the documentation of workers. If that isn't a bald attempt to make it easier to hire illegals at a time when real wages are lagging I don't know what is.

[Toawa]

Since it's turned to this...

I'd say the biggest thing that annoys me about illegal immigration is the tax consequences; I've heard that there's a $400B difference between what "should" be paid and what is paid, and most of that is due to illegal immigrants (or the people who employ them) not paying their damn taxes. Or, even worse, filing fraudulent returns to get refunds, then disappearing when the IRS realizes something's not right.

For all the talk of tax cuts on one side, and eliminating them on the other, if they'd take a moment to actually go after these companies that aren't paying their taxes, we'd be a lot better off.

This is one of the reasons I'd support a VAT-like system instead of income taxes; it'd (hopefully) eliminate all this fraud. (Though I'm sure that there would be other loopholes opened. It's not a fixall, to be sure.)

[Honor]

This is one of the reasons I'd support a VAT-like system instead of income taxes; it'd (hopefully) eliminate all this fraud. (Though I'm sure that there would be other loopholes opened. It's not a fixall, to be sure.)

Oh, it'd be better, sure... But you'll never get it with a republican in office. Not unless there are some substantial loopholes built in. I can hear G.W's speach on the subject now...

My fella Amurcans... It has come to mah attenshun that there are close to seven percent of are nashuns rich who still pay inkum taxes. This is an attri... a attra... er... an attross... This is just not right! The sooper rich are the backbone of our great nashun, and they must be pertected from the predatury natchure of big-gubmint loving demuhkrats. So, In closing, nine-eleven, nine-eleven, nine-eleven... Terrorist, terrorist, nine-eleven! Nashunuhl sekur'ty. Nine-eleven. Thank you.

[Tellner]

As far as it goes, the tax burden in the US is the lowest it's been since 1954. What has changed is who pays the taxes. The corporate share has plummeted. The share paid by the richest 5% and 1% has dropped like a stone. The portion picked up by the middle class has risen dramatically. Wages are punished while making money off everything except wages (especially dividends and capital gains) has been reduced for the last twenty five years. The AMT affects mostly wage-earners now because it hasn't been indexed to inflation or anything else that would keep it from creeping lower.

In short, only little people pay taxes. Whenever tax relief is put forward it is directed at the very rich. The rest of us pick up the slack.

Consider paying for the reconstruction of the Gulf Coast. It was never suggested that further tax cuts for the rich be postponed, let alone keeping the ones that were rushed into place from becoming permanent. Instead, Bush urged Congress to "push the envelope" on spending cuts in food stamps, student loans, heating oil aid, WIC and Medicaid. Res ipsi loquitor.

[Squidflakes]

Waitasecond... Are we going to take the republican view of pretending it's that easy to get in, and the only reason these people are illegals is because they're too stupid or too lazy to take a test?

I never said it was easy, I said that becoming a legal citizen is worth all the hassle.

Well, it used to be anyway. Everyone seems to be embracing illegal immigration these days. There are banks in Indiana and Wisconson that are offering home loans to illegals at prefered interest rates with no need for a credit check, just a note from a local community leader that says you're good for it.

[Honor]

As far as it goes, the tax burden in the US is the lowest it's been since 1954. What has changed is who pays the taxes. The corporate share has plummeted. The share paid by the richest 5% and 1% has dropped like a stone. The portion picked up by the middle class has risen dramatically. Wages are punished while making money off everything except wages (especially dividends and capital gains) has been reduced for the last twenty five years. The AMT affects mostly wage-earners now because it hasn't been indexed to inflation or anything else that would keep it from creeping lower.

In short, only little people pay taxes. Whenever tax relief is put forward it is directed at the very rich. The rest of us pick up the slack.

Consider paying for the reconstruction of the Gulf Coast. It was never suggested that further tax cuts for the rich be postponed, let alone keeping the ones that were rushed into place from becoming permanent. Instead, Bush urged Congress to "push the envelope" on spending cuts in food stamps, student loans, heating oil aid, WIC and Medicaid. Res ipsi loquitor.

Exactly... Those who don't much use social programs take huge tax cuts, and the social programs they don't use are slashed to pay for it. Even under the inital programs where the income taxes of the poor were cut or reduced to nothing, it still cost them ore because the services they needed in order to live in this country were gutted or killed altogether. Now, the services are still being cut, but the tax cuts for the poor and middle classes have evaporated under the weight of our responsibility to pay for President Bush's & V.P Cheney's personal war of fortune, business, and penile embiggenment.

I spent a few minutes trying to find a copy of a bit where a waitress is all chipper about her little tax refund check (remember the stunt early in G. W. Bush's presidency?) and a lawyer in her resturant is explaining to her why she's about to get ass-raped by not paying taxes... But I'm out of time. I know it was done as a rebuttal to this bit from President Bush ( http://www.ssa.gov/history/gwbushstmts.html ctrl-f and search for the first instance of the word "waitress" ) but I can't find the rebuttal script.

[Honor]

I never said it was easy, I said that becoming a legal citizen is worth all the hassle.

The point is that for the people you're talking about, the hassle isn't a realistic option. It's far too difficult for them to become citizens, test or no test, unless they find a nice american boy or girl to marry.

The republicans run a shell game of keeping it difficult for them to narutalize on one hand - because that's good for the republican owned businesses that hire most of these illegals - and bitching about how many damned illegals are flooding our country on the other - because that get's their ignorant, reactionary base all worked up and out to the polls.

Yes, we could make a little more tax revenue by making the undocumented workers pay their fair share... We could make a whole hell of alot more tax revenue by making the republican rich pay their fair share, and a whole lot more than that by making the businesses that hire the undocumented workers pay their fair share.

[Cuteswan]

I know no one will believe me, but tax revenues (the amount collected) often goes up after the rates themselves go down. Unfortunately, that only incites politicians to spend more money, making deficits rise as well.

Also, one might argue that the reason more "little people" pay taxes is because they're actually earning a somewhat decent amount of money. And, I still believe the "top 5% of earners" still pay something like 30% or 40% of all taxes. (Of course, a lot of the "old money wealthy" don't pay very much because they don't earn income and also have ways to avoid paying taxes.)

Just worth mentioning.... :|

[Toawa]

I know no one will believe me, but tax revenues (the amount collected) often goes up after the rates themselves go down. Unfortunately, that only incites politicians to spend more money, making deficits rise as well.

I believe this has been well documented; I understand Reagan's cuts had such an effect (I think it was Reagan who did it.) though the chain of causality is always a matter of argument. ("Did the tax cuts really do it, or would it have happened anyway?" Without a way to see two universes at once, we can't know.)

Also, one might argue that the reason more "little people" pay taxes is because they're actually earning a somewhat decent amount of money. And, I still believe the "top 5% of earners" still pay something like 30% or 40% of all taxes. (Of course, a lot of the "old money wealthy" don't pay very much because they don't earn income and also have ways to avoid paying taxes.)

Just worth mentioning.... :|

There's a book about that topic...

Also, for the sake of my own personal political beliefs, I will replace any of Honor's mentions of "Republicans" with "Neo-Conservatives" because I believe true Republicans wouldn't stand up for the shit that the current administration is doing.

Of course, my definition of true Republicans is as rock-solid as the definition of true Goths (as referenced in another thread. Gotta love the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

[Moo Cow]

So with all these details, how i feel it boils down to is that if you want to come to the US and don't have a spouse waiting for you/money/job/scholarship/seeking asylum/whatever other allowances, chances are you're not going to be able to get in legally. Getting a visa and a green card is fucking HARD AS SHIT. I know someone who went through the process and she explained how difficult it was (though thankfully she finally did get a visa). So you have people coming here the only way they can... illegal.


We're talking about this issue in my Spanish class. I just watched El Norte... not only is it about illegal immigration, but it is a very good movie. And it has a lot of truth to it

~Sara

[Tellner]

The whole supply-side argument with its Laffer Curve had currency during the early days of the Reagan Administration. The assumption was that we were at that magical point where a decrease in tax rates would stimulate investment so much that the economy would grow enough to increase total tax revenues.

By the mid 80s they still kept a supply-sider around when they needed a rationalization for cutting tax rates at the top and giving corporate cronies special privileges. For the most part even old-school conservative economists agreed that we didn't know whether there was any truth in the assumptions or not but suspected that the answer was "No". The truth of the matter was that revenues got squeezed, more people ended up on skimpier public assistance but the people who really mattered had lower tax bills.

The rest is history. We have an income and wealth distribution that resembles Guatemala more than a developed country, a shrinking middle class, lowered wages, increased poverty and most of our capital running overseas as fast as it can be stuck on a boat. We financed it all by going from being the world's biggest creditor to the world's biggest debtor. The only reason the Chinese and Korean bankers continue to give us our fiscal fix is that they aren't quite sure who else they can sell their products to.

[SpasticSage]

A few moderating comments (I agree with most of you guys, but you're making most of the points already):


Someone said that the top 5% of earners pay 30 or 40% of the taxes. Because of a mathematical principle, this really doesn't say much. Nor does any similar statement a politician makes.
Let's assume for the moment that the top earners are the top taxpayers. (i.e. that if Andy earns more than Billy, then Andy pays more taxes). I know this isn't totally true, but my guess is that it's roughly true enough.

The ONLY way for the top 1% of taxpayers to pay 1% of the tax base (and not more), or for the top X% of taxpayers to pay X% of the tax base, is if everyone paid the EXACT SAME AMOUNT in taxes. It's only natural for the top percentage of people to pay more than that percentage of the taxes.


I don't know if anyone used the term "fair" when discussing taxes. If not, good. These are taxes. There's no way to say it's fair that lots of people aren't going to disagree with you. I've given up on "fair" for taxes.

Instead, I see it as a method of allocating costs. The tax code, when coupled with our nation's demographics, is implicitly a cost-allocation guide. The costs of the nation are assigned to the taxpayers, with excess costs in any year (the defecit) being allocated to future years through the use of borrowing (treasury bonds).

Looking at it from this nerdy, left brained perspective, the real question is: which is the optimal way to allocate costs? Which leads to: How do we define "optimal"? And after that: What specific qualities are we seeking in this cost allocation method? What are our goals here?

Therin lies the problem. Politicians answering this question would definitely have to RAISE taxes for someone (ticking them off), and would have to actually stick with a disciplined scale.
Also, none of them would agree. Hell, I'd be willing to bet none of us would agree.